Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Interesting article. Thoughts?

http://erikfish.com/2011/09/26/when-...ishonor-jesus/

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Great article! Every Christian should be a witness of Jesus and a disciple!
The great thing about disciples is that they make more disciples!

I never understood that high and mighty so and so has to baptize you because he has a piece of paper on his wall. I didn't ask to be baptized "in the name of the UPCI" or "in the name of the church down the street". Just another way for people to try to pull Jesus off the throne so they can hop on in his seat!

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Just off the top of my head without having read the article, I think God set pastors in churches, and people need a relationship with the pastor as their pastor. So, unless otherwise impossible, a person whom the believer considers pastor should do the baptizing.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Excellent article! The Great Commission is pretty clear and spot on!!! I don't even remember reading anywhere in the Word that the Apostles has ordination papers!

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

A person doesn't need papers to be a pastor, but the purpose of papers, if they are involved, is to show that the one ordained is recognized and can be trusted as one who indeed sincerely believes the doctrine the said fellowship proposes. Know them that labour among you. It just facilitates a means of knowing the one labouring among you is in good standing with the brethren of the particular fellowship whose doctrine you believe in.

I think people miss the point of suc "papers".

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

There MUST be a Spiritual minimum(standard) for folks....to be proven to be rooted and grounded in the faith, for doing the baptism. Else anyone can baptise anyone, even if they daily battle porn, Copenhagen, anger physically and verbally-management, and lusting after another persons spouse...on and on...
Be proven.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Right. And that standard is the equivalent to what some people use as papers, and nothing more. I would want to know if the person baptizing me believes what I am supposed to believe according to the bible. Whatever it takes to know that, is what is required.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

"I would want to know if the person baptizing me believes what I am supposed to believe according to the bible. Whatever it takes to know that, is what is required."
do you have a guiding passage for this? ty
so then iow the papers are essentially worthless, and likely even counterproductive. King David would not qualify, obviously.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

If it wasn't enough to have common sense tell us we should know if the person baptizing us is in good standing with others and is known to stand for a particular doctrine and not be double minded with such important issues, that verse should do it.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

strikes me that the first baptizer who gets some piece of paper, and then later cleans the church's clock financially, is presenting another pov, wadr. Paper does not equal "knowing" iow. Personally in that position i would feel responsible to sue the ordinator, but never mind that for now.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Pointing to abusers who will be lost with the devil and his hordes, in spite of the intentions of the purpose of such things and the myriads of people that are honest and do it for the right reasons is disingenuous.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

I agree that it is best that the baptizer be someone who is rooted and grounded in their faith. However, how many of us have known pastors, evangelists, teachers and even "lay-ministry" who have been found living in adultery or involved in any number of "sins," (even what you have listed above); would this negate the baptisms that they performed?

It is impossible for us to know a man's heart so how can we judge who should do the baptizing? The act of baptism is the person's decision to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. It is an outward sign of their profession that Jesus is their Savior and the remission of their sins. IMO, it is all on the new believer and Jesus - not the person doing the baptism. I have even read of people in foreign countries who received the revelation of baptism in Jesus name having no one there to baptize them - they baptized themselves. So personally, I believe that anyone who is grounded in their faith can baptize. I've seen fathers (who were not ministers in any shape, form or fashion) baptize their children and it is a beautiful sight!

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Because of some wicked exceptions to the rule, we can't dispose of things intended to help narrow down those whom we can trust. But that does not say papers are required, as I indicated in my first post. It doesn't mean others cannot baptize. It just means it's a means to do our best in knowing those who labour among us.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

ya, or a way to establish authority where none exists. Both are true imo. It is the assurance that you may know something that you do not know at all, in the end; the very first time there is an exception.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Of course! After all, no one can really know if they're saved right now, right?

Not.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

might seem so at first, but this is obviously another iteration of They Are All Lost, them what had no priest with a paper to dunk them in water, when He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

yet when i quote His Word, we have issues, even when Paul, your High Priest, obviously backs Him up. You don't see a disconnect there?

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

:highfive

Prove it. When you quote and use it out of context and are shown what context is and are asked to provide your response in turn, you don't show.

Let's do this and see if that's correct or not?

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Well, looky here we have an Apostle Paul hater in our midst.

That's new little buddy, I didn't know who were one of those Paul dissenters?

The more you post, the more you toast. :throwrock

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Hey Shazeep?

What do you think about the Apostle Paul?

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

i suggest that it is not, because knowing is supposed to = knowing, not "getting it right most of the time."

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

ok, let's. What context would you provide for

Love your neighbor; this fulfills the law.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

actually i think he gets a bad rap from my crowd sometimes--but i see why this is at least as much perceived as meant; notice that my statement did not denigrate Paul in any way, but was pointed at those who imo reconcile Christ with Paul.

To answer your question, i think Paul was a freak; left a six figure job with power and position, a mansion, massages, and babes, to follow Christ, with a price on his head, surely. And i would not dismiss any of his writings; but i would reconcile them with Christ, even where it is hard.

Some of It may have been topical to the time; i noticed a minute ago that the beginning of Romans 7, his description of the requirements a widow must follow, no longer apply, so it isn't like we don't have precedent. Doesn't mean Paul is wrong, but he lived in a transitional moment.

i think it should also be considered that maybe a choice needed to be given, even for Grace, so that men would reveal their hearts, and a zealot is the perfect guy to write it, perhaps. But Paul was living a completely different life from...ha, practically everyone else on the planet; his definitions of those terms that we are so confident that we understand the definitions of are likely not our definitions.

After all, what is your proof that Paul ever got baptized, the way you understand it? Allow me to present Paul's "baptism," for consideration:

16 So what are you waiting for? Get up and get yourself baptized, scrubbed clean of those sins and personally acquainted with God.' 17 "Well, it happened just as Ananias said. After I was back in Jerusalem and praying one day in the Temple, lost in the presence of God, 18 I saw him, saw God's Righteous Innocent, and heard him say to me, 'Hurry up! Get out of here as quickly as you can. None of the Jews here in Jerusalem are going to accept what you say about me.' 19 "At first I objected: 'Who has better credentials? They all know how obsessed I was with hunting out those who believed in you, beating them up in the meeting places and throwing them in jail. 20 And when your witness Stephen was murdered, I was right there, holding the coats of the murderers and cheering them on. And now they see me totally converted. What better qualification could I have?' 21 "But he said, 'Don't argue. Go. I'm sending you on a long journey to outsider Gentiles.'" 22 The people in the crowd had listened attentively up to this point, but now they broke loose, shouting out, "Kill him! He's an insect! Stomp on him!" 23 They shook their fists. They filled the air with curses.

read some Paul, and voila. :)

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Bait and switch.

I already explained context of that. Let's deal with the other and we can then proceed to this, because you've proved it's a waste of time explaining context to you since you will not respond with verse by verse study of context when give contextual explanations. I'd be wasting more hours with this if you won't demonstrate you will respond in kind with the other.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

? um, what? so, you did it once, please briefly do it again, if you would. bait and switch? lol

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

i'm guessing, what, you need several thousand words to "explain" the context for me here? just copy/paste it, if you have to. Could you please put Chapter headings on it tho :toofunny sorry couldn't help it. i mean please.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

and i hope you understand that i have always maintained that for all i know you guys are largely right; this is what i mean when i say that i am besting you in debate simply because you are clinging to the illusion of certainty. doesn't mean you aren't correct in some ways. I got baptized. Spoke in tongues, the whole bit. Well, glossololia--the xenoglossy didn't come until later.

But a point here is that we can't read of Paul's baptism the flowing robes, and angelic choir, down at the Jordan river; in fact we quite plainly read "and what Ananias said is just what happened...i got baptized all right, with the Spirit, and then with fire" paraphrased.

So i have to ask, you who hold that some guy in a tie, with a piece of paper, is required for baptism; did you, at any time, give the man that told you that any money? :)

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

it is a fair question.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

I disagree, while I don't agree with everything Shazeep says, he does have valid points that you guys don't seem to want to recognize. It is MPO that baptism has been twisted to become something that was never intended. You can try to force John 3:5 "born of water" to mean baptism but the rest of the context of the passage refutes this.

The whole context of John 3 deals with being born of the spirit, not one word on baptism. Only when you force "born of water to mean baptism", which I don't believe is the meaning of "born of water". The final words and qualifications of being born of the spirit, are, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness". Those in Moses time did NOTHING but look upon the serpent to be saved.

Followed by, "for God sent not his son to condemn the world, but that whosoever believe in him shall be saved".

I feel the biggest problem with religion is the misdirection of the understanding of what baptism meant in those days.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

And while we are on the subject of authority, where do we get the idea that those God gave to the church hold positions of authority. God gave gifts to the church, Ephesians 4 "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry" we are all minsters.

God set in the church, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. 1 Cor. 12. Again these are gifts, read it. Where do we get the idea that these gifts are positions of authority? We are the body of Christ, and the head is Christ not men.

God set the gifts in the body, man ordained elders, Bishops, and deacons, and the elders, bishops, and deacons were for the administrational working of the church. And finally it gets me that only one place is the word pastor used in scripture that seems to be the only gift that is designated in religious society today. And that is a bloated position not described in scripture in the manner found in churches today. Where are the apostles, prophets, teachers, gifting of healing, workers of miracles, etc. And just who was Paul telling to seek the best gifts if not the general church.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Bro., we'll never agree on baptism since you do not see Mark 16:16 says baptism comes before salvation, and Acts 22:16 says baptism must be done in order for sins to be washed away. So, our views on how important baptism is will be drastically different from yours for that basic reason. Nothing against you personally. Just factual differences.

We believe that as much as you do while we hold drastically different positions on the place of baptism.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

RULE: G4291
προΐ́στημι
proistēmi
pro-is'-tay-mee
From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule.

RULE OVER: G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Please give verse by verse explanation of SOMETHING with regard to context. So far nothing yet.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government.

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Amen, but you see there is a movement called the "me, myself, and I" group who cannot explain Church government. The pendulum swings for them from pastor/teacher/evangelist/apostle/prophet, all the way to their own private Idaho. The word ἐκκλησία becomes meaningless, and therefore they exist in a Robinson Crusoe Bible study world, where everyone is right in their own mind. The Bible verses are bantered back and forth like a ball in a tennis match. They are always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of Truth. In fact, they start to erase truths they once held, and sadly some times even to the point of Atheism. :(

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Good luck with that..

:lol

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Agreed. After all these months not one time has this been provided. Like you said, it's easy to accuse someone of denying Christ's words, but yet never come good with evidence by way of detailed analysis of the particular words in question. That's all we've been hearing, though!

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Amen, shazeep is just trying to keep the argument hot, and in his mind he is winning.

:nah

Re: Who's authorized to baptize whom?
 

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

G3421

μνημονεύω
mnēmoneuō
mnay-mon-yoo'-o
From a derivative of G3420; to exercise memory, that is, recollect; by implication to punish; also to rehearse: - make mention, be mindful, remember.

The statement is to remember, nothing about authority or obedience. Just because someone holds a position of supposed ruler ship, does not make them a ruler.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

G3982

πείθω
peithō
pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Blind obedience is not the meaning of this word, Just because one of the meanings of the word is "obey" does not make it the right translation of the word in the context.
We are to be persuaded by our own study what is true, not just because someone in the position of pastor (that may or may not be called of God) says so.

"study to show yourselves approved" "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling". How does one equate the supposed authority of Pastors in the face of these passages. How does one seek out their own salvation when the preacher/pastor says he is the mouth piece of God.

"The very word "ekklesia" implies authority.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom, another term necessarily indicating government ie authority. It's not the Rotary Club of God, but the Kingdom of God, with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government."

Don't see that in the definition!
G1577

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

"with a host of convened assemblies of elected members who meet to carry out the functions of government"
Elected members? Where is scripture do we have the rule of elected members carrying functions of government. Where and how does Christ fit into your church as head?

Amen, but you see there is a movement called the "me, myself, and I" group who cannot explain Church government. The pendulum swings for them from pastor/teacher/evangelist/apostle/prophet, all the way to their own private Idaho. The word ἐκκλησία becomes meaningless, and therefore they exist in a Robinson Crusoe Bible study world, where everyone is right in their own mind. The Bible verses are bantered back and forth like a ball in a tennis match. They are always learning, but never coming to the knowledge of Truth. In fact, they start to erase truths they once held, and sadly some times even to the point of Atheism.

You have no idea, it is not the "me, myself, and I group" it is only the group. We are the "ekklēsia" Called out ones. Gathered together because of our belief in Christ and his kingdom. And while you are worried about supposed truths once held, I would say they are traditions not truths.
And if some have gone to the point of atheism, I would say it is because of those that pushed traditions as truth, that when people realized this, their whole existence was based on these traditions, and not Christ, they had noting left to have faith in.

Which is why pastors and preachers have a grave responsibility to teach only truth and not their own pet peeves.