A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Pastors should not let their presumptions about their members spill over into their sermons. What they are perceiving to be a lack of interest or spiritual complacancy in a member might be something completely different. Sometimes people go through things and don't have the liberty to share with you because family members are always with them. Before you assume something is wrong with their spiritual condition, go to them in private. Aren’t you supposed to be a Shepard? The sheep might be afflicted and broken, feeling alone. Perhaps they have tried to convey to you the depth of their problem and you weren't listening, or gave them cliché phrases when they were seeking wisdom. Perhaps their circumstances make it impossible for them to be as involved as they'd like to be or as they once were. Perhaps they don't have the family support others do that make it possible to be freed up from kids for a couple of days a week so they can help you more. Perhaps their lack of giving comes from financial problems that you really can't grasp. Maybe during their lack of giving they've put off those drives to the park with their kids at times just to make sure they had enough gas to get to church on Sunday, while everyone else was eating out or going on vacation. Maybe for them that was their giving. The last thing they need to be told is that they are under Malachi's curse. And maybe, just maybe, they’ve been wondering when rejection from the ministry was finally going to manifest itself. They’ve picked up on that coldness/snub. They know what you’re thinking, and it only compounds the problem. Pastors, pray for sensitivity. Let yourself entertain the possibility that some of the things you were taught are “pillars of truth” are really man-made traditions not based on scripture.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

You had my heart up untill the last sentence.

Here it is, another beat up the pastor thread.

Llololo!?!?

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

oh c'mon CB, he said "Let yourself entertain the possibility."

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Actually this is another "pastor beating up the sheep" thread.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Never give up!!! and never stop forgiving.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

So they know what the Pastor is thinking but he doesn't have a clue?

LOL

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Oh how true! I have seen this many times in my life. Pastors sit in their glass houses and never communicate with their saints during the week except a small hand shake after or before service. They don't get involved in the day to day life of their sheep. They abuse the sheep instead of lead them to green pastures and clear water.

What we have today are too many hirelings and not pastors.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Yep!

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

The expectations placed on a pastor are simply not supported in scripture. This might be the first place to start with this.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Neither are the expectations that pastors place on tjeir members scriptural.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

ya, but i think that one grows from this one
because "no buyers means no sellers." Sellers rise to fill the need of buyers. Generally speaking, not calling pastors sellers per se.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Neither are the expectations placed on members by pastors scriptural. And frankly, If members do place unbiblical expectations on their pastors it's because the pastors want them to. These guys set them up to be the final authority, "the man of Gawd".

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Just my thoughts from study of this from several points of view. The position of a Pastor as we have today is not scriptural period. Pastors were gifting's given to the church as per Ephesians 4 This is the only place pastor is found in all the NT. And they were only part of a four fold gifting to the church to equip the saints to do the work of ministry.

Deacons and Elders were not pastors, and they were chosen by others based upon their life that was proven beforehand that they were qualified to be in said positions.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Yes. Agreed. Neither is scriptural.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

They both stem from the Roman Catholic church system. Not from the way the early church operated.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

The catholic priests made themselves mediators unto God for the rest of the church. We are now all priests unto God. Jesus was the mediator for all. Preachers should preach and teach the gospel of Jesus and the biblical way unto righteousness. No need micro managing people's lives. We no longer have need of a physical priesthood.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Very true, Bro. GS.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

If we "preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ", then there wouldn't be a way to preach about the "selves" of others, either.

Personally, I want to know more about Jesus. Tell me more about Him. Explain to me who is He and what He did. Help me to love and appreciate Him more.

Can a preacher ever run out of things to say about Jesus that he has to take the time to preach about something or someone else?

I surely hope not.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.



Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



Like 24:43-45
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scripture.



The whole book is about HIM.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

But if that nosy pastor does get involved with the day to day life, without invitation, then "Who does he think he is?"

LOL

There is just no pleasing some disgruntled people.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

But God's drummer just said that they have to be involved in the day to day business of the sheep!

Make up your minds folks!

Just what do you want from your pastor?

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

I said they should not micro manage people's lives. If you are having to stay on top of people in order to keep them right with God, are they really right with God? We should preach the way unto righteousness, but we must take our hands off and let people live their own lives.

I agree that the pastor should be involved with the people, for he is dependent on the church body as much as the rest. If he preaches the word and sounds the trumpet he has done his part. He shouldn't hound people that have been taught and know better. If they have sin in their lives and have some type of appointment in the church that is different. I am talking managing people personal lives (finances, work hours, children, etc...).

When it comes to people's personal things, we should let people work those things out in their own home. If someone comes for help that is different.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

I wish all pastors/shepherds of the flock had your attitude about this!

:yourock

You couldn't have said it better "If you are having to stay on top of people in order to keep them right with God, are they really right with God? We should preach the way unto righteousness, but we must take our hands off and let people live their own lives."

Pastors should not consider themselves "policeman" of people's souls. They are to be shepherds of the flock, not policeman.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Many times this is a hindrance to future church growth. We can allow the same people to consume our time and energy. I believe this policeman type of pasturing is born out of fear. Let the wheat and the tares both come up and God will sort them out.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Exactly when I said to be involved in peoples lives, bad choice of words. To many times pastors feel they must hold themselves above the people to the point that they cannot be friends with their saints because they feel they would lose respect. But a true shepherd was always in the midst of his flock to the point the flock new his voice and loved him.

The greatest pastors I have known were those that were not afraid to be on the same level as the saints. Much more could be said on the subject but I will leave it there for now.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

The submission that many seek is from a authoritarian POV. The Submission that seems to be biblical is freewill and born out of love and trust. I have seen many cases where people are afraid to go to their pastor and express a concern or a problem. To avoid collision with the leadership of the local church, they instead let things fester and eventually just quit.

I might add though, that sometimes pastors may be wrongly judged. If you have a problem in your local church you need to go to your Brother first. AFF is somewhat anonymous, but still it is wrong to go to a public forum over specific problems. Especially, if I have not tried to go to him first.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

There has to be a balance and everything must be done in Love.

This is the tight rope a pastor has to walk. Da razors edge, so to speak.

At times the correcting reminder of the officer is needed, even time in jail and punishment is sometimes in order.

Then at other times, the shoulder of a loving or rebuke of a correcting parent is needed, or da desperate loving cry of a mother running to the street to save their children from being run over.

Then other times the ear of the brother is needed.

Hopefully, He as a man of God frequently goes beyond his abilities to seek, fast and pray for the mind of the Spirit.

Presenting the child of God with a shocking message of what Thus saith the Lord!

If we could take time to lean completely on the Spirit BALANCE can be achieved.
God would be pleased and souls would be saved.

2 Timothy 4:2-5
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;

but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Jude 21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Acts 20:27
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Ephesians 4:12-15
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1Peter 5:2-4
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly;

not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Hebrews 13:17,18
........for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Pray for us:.....

If only the child of God would extend a little grace, and allow their pastor to be a man. Just like them. Doing their best to do what's right with a sincere heart. This pastoring thing is a heavy load, it's a call you cannot run from and a luxury a saint of God doesn't have pressing them daily.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

The fact is God gave gifts and they did were not only the pastor. Eph. 4 Yes the ministry of a pastor is hard at time. I know I was one. But the fact is He does not have to carry the load alone because God also gave other gifts to the church, if we would only identify those other gifts in the local assembly and let then be a help.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Some time back I wrote a little blurb entitled " The Pentecostal Police".

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Sigh, what the problem is here is there is no one answer as there is no saint or pastor who is identical. There are saints that need or desire constant attention and they drift to where they will find that.

Then there are saints who are more independent and they drift also to where they feel comfortable. With each there are pastors who can help them in whatever level they desire. Nothing wrong with that.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Seems to me some need to grow up in the word.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

You still miss the point of this thread. I'm referring to pastors who use oversimplified benchmarks to gauge a saints "worthiness of ministry" and stoically refuse to deviate from these opinions no matter what unique circumstances the saint might be going through.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPemyipJzAM

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Go ahead and share it here. Might as well add it to the discussion!

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

People need to be taught not to lean on and follow mankind, but on the Lord Jesus. If you are teaching the above as a pastor, then it is not your job to make sure people indeed follow and do that.

Preach the Word, love them, and don't be surprised if the Word preached doesn't take root in their heart... after all, we can remember the Parable of the Sower, and most of the Word preached falls on ground that is not ready to accept it. But that does not mean you stop sowing and loving, teaching and preaching.

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

:)

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

be alert for the calling to a new Right Pastor
and if he doesn't know he's a pastor
don't tell him ok

Re: A lack of pastoral discernment
 

a little leaven leavens the whole batch, ya