How old do you think the universe is?
 

My husband has a scientific bent, he has an MS in electrical engineering along with a PhD in International business. This morning he was explaining to me how the universe is 13+ billions of years old.

As a previous dispensationalist, our occasional debates over scientific theory and the bible would sometimes be, well a bit stressful.

Since I have begun to explore new POVs on eschatology, I am just in the learning stage, I have seen preterists state that 1000 years is a figure of speech and not literal.

Is it possible that the 7 days of creation don't equate to a literal 1000 years per day and I can stop debating with my husband and agree that the earth and universe could be as old the scientist seem to believe it is?

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

It's possible. Here's an excellent book on Creation that offers some insight on that interpretation. You might enjoy reading it. (Or you might want to at least check out the Summary link in Chapter 6, found in the Table of Contents.)

http://answers.org/newlook/NEWLOOK.HTM

But as for me, I don't know all the answers. I do keep coming back to literal Creationism. But I'm open to scientific insights that might not fit the young earth model.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I think the universe is a couple seconds old-- a neuron in the mind of a God we cannot comprehend.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

this looks interesting, particularly the section on relativity.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I have this weird thought that enters my mind when I think about Creation, the universe, and time... here's a text...

Genesis 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

When I read the text I see something in my mind that I've never heard anyone really elaborate on. I'll put parenthesis in the text to share the thoughts I have as I read it. Let me know if any of you have read it this way....

"In the beginning (dateless past) God created the heaven and the earth (the entire Universe including planet Earth) .
And the earth (planet Earth) was without form, and void (an empty, uninhabited world) ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (the darkness of the atmosphere concealed a primordial ocean) . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (God's Spirit moved over this primordial ocean) .
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light (God spoke and rays of light penetrated the thick clouds of this darkened atmosphere to reveal what He was about to do on the surface of this empty water covered planet) .

The Universe is not described with any benchmark to determine age. The planet that would be transformed into what we know as Earth is also not given a benchmark to determine its age. But God is taking six days to transform this ancient and lifeless, water covered, world into a world suitable for man.

Anyone else ever read it like that?

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I think you'll enjoy the book. When it comes to the Old Earth Creation model, this book is one of the best that I've read. Some other decent Old Earth Creation books and theories are:

- Creation and Time: A Biblical and Scientific Perspective on the Creation-Date Controversy, by Hugh Ross (Day Age Theory)

- Creation and Evolution: Rethinking the Evidence from Science and the Bible, by Alan Hayward (Divine Fiat Theory)

- Genesis Unbound: A Provocative New Look at the Creation Account, by John Sailhamer (EdenicTheory)

You might want to check them out if you ever have the chance.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Since the sun and the moon were not creates until day 4, our understanding of what a "day" meant must reflect that fact.

When I taught Genesis to kids, we focused on sequence of events. The first thing God created was this. The second thing God created was....etc.

Genesis is not a book about planetary geology. In creation, we learn that God created the world, not a group of Egyptian gods.

I do not mix geology and theology.

When God created Adam, he did not create a baby. He created a mature specimen of his species. The same is true of the planet. He created a mature planet capable of supporting human and plant life.

If a biologist examined Adam, he would have seen 32 teeth. Adam could walk. He was for all purposes, much younger than he appeared. It is the same with geologists who examine the fossil or rock record. It appears to be much older than it actually is.

I have no idea how old the earth is. I candidly dismiss the simplistic interpretations of some who blame every geological feature on the flood of Noah.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Day 4 is interesting. I was always taught that God created the sun, moon, and stars on day 4, but the text might actually not support that. I'll share what I found in my studies...

Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also .
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

In verse 16, the word "made" is translated from the Hebrew "asah". "Asah," the Hebrew for "made," is a different word than the one used back in the first verse where God "created" the heaven and the earth. There the word was "bara" which means "to carve out." The meaning of "Asah" is more general. It can mean "to labor," "to work about (or upon) anything," "to make," or "to produce by labor." The word is translated many different ways.

So, in Genesis 14-19, we're not seeing a creative act like we see referenced in Genesis 1:1. We're seeing God essentially, making the sun, moon, and stars (which were created "In the beginning") visible from the surface of the planet. Imagine standing on a darkened and watery world and watching God speak and suddenly rays of light penetrate the clouds, but the sun, moon, and stars are still not yet visible. It's overcast. But on the fourth day, God clears away the clouds and makes the sun, moon, and stars visible to you. By clearing away the think cloud cover (mentioned in verse 2), He has now essentially set the sun, moon, and stars as objects to be seen in the sky above your head.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Aquila, thanks for quoting Gen 1 concerning day 4.

in my humble opinion, God created Time on day 4. period. any attempt to identify how old something is....that preexisted the beginning of time, is an exercise in futility.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Did God clap His Hands and MAKE time and the universe?

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I've heard that theory too.

Creation is a freaky thing. lol

The Day Agers interpret Day 4 as follows:

God "brought forth" the sun,
moon and stars in that order
by clearing the thick cloud
layer from around the earth.
He "presented" them in the
heavens where they could be
used for the figuring of seasons etc.

I take that concept and put it into a literal creation week. lol

Nope. I just take what it says.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

For in SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and ALL that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11

*The 10 commandments, the only portion in all of scripture written directly by God himself

By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalms 33:6,9

But from THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6

I'd think Jesus is a good authority for creation considering....

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:10

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:16

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

im not real sure how anyone takes what God did in the beginning and boxes it.

that being said, a to me it seems time was created for man on day 4. But im not really going to fight over it... being no one I know was there... LOL

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

That's how I feel.

I think if God ever reveals exactly what He did, we'll all just stare in total amazement. lol

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I guess I believe in a cosmological model very much like that found in the Day Age Theory, but with the days being literal. lol

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

What about "appearance of age". I know that some folks have said that it would make God a liar. But if God reveals it, He's not lying or hiding it.

For example, He created Adam from the dust of the earth. I believe this most likely took less than a couple seconds. However, Adam was created as a fully matured male. If someone were to observe Adam meandering around the garden, they'd assume he was at least maybe 21 years old. But in reality, Adam might be only 3 hours old.

I see no way of escaping various elements that would include an appearance of age. And that alone could REALLY throw any scientific conclusions way off.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

/\ this right here!

agree

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

agree. for instance, one could look at the grand canyon and say it would take millions of years for that to happen or God could have just thought it would look really cool. LOL.

I agree. I dont like the phrase "appearance of age" because people try to read deception into it. I think mature creation is more accurate. God's Word is plain. He spoke and it happened. God created the earth to be inhabited, not to sit around for billions of years. He had a purpose in creation, to reveal His glory and make Himself known to His creatures. He didn't create it to let a little stream trickle for a billion years to create a canyon. Beyond that God's power and wisdom are so great, he doesn't have to think through things or take time to do them. He didnt need 6 days to create, He choose to do that. When he put Adam in the garden and Adam ate fruit that evening, the tree created 3 days earlier had fully ripened fruit on it. When he looked up at night, though the stars would measure millions of light years away, they were 2 days old. None of this is deception, God plainly stated what he did. If one doesn't accept that then thats an issue of unbelief, not deception.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

LOL! You know, you're exactly right. :lol

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I think the days are literal, but creation actually occurred in Gen 1, and not the six days. The days were renovation, and creation was verse 1.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

thanks for all your answers, my original post was a bit incoherent, but you all gave me great answers anyway.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

1. Nobody knows how old the universe is, its all assumption and conjecture.

2. The seven days are literal seven days. 24 hours? Who knows? But they cannot be millennia long epochs, that would mean 500 years of daylight and 500 years of darkness each - life would be impossible. Its best to just believe what it says.

3. Nobody knows how long between the end of the seventh day and the planting of the Garden, or if Adams life span is reckoned from his formation or from his expulsion from the Garden. So the creation week could have been 50,000,000,000 years ago for all we really know.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Whatever the case, I know I totally reject the idea that the creation of the world was made making it an apparent ancient age in the same manner God created Adam an adult. That's just silly in my estimation.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Silly?
Nope, it is not silly if you look at it from a utilitarian point of view.

We build chairs for for children and we build chairs for grown up adults and they are basically the same design. If we looked at the range of chairs, we might assume that chairs begun as little then by some strange process they started getting bigger until they became large.

God tells us how he built our world, it is possible that the age of the world is only apparent, because it was built specifically to be inhabitable, it is a version of a large chair specifically built for an adult.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I wholly disagree. The Word would teach the principle if it was true, but it does not.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Genesis 1:3,11, 24 KJV

And God said...and it was so.

For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalms 33:9 KJV


He spake and it was done.

It seems clear. Not sure how much more explicit of a statement you're looking for.

Again, theres no justification to use the phrase or idea "appearance of age". God didn't create it to look old. He created it to be used, specifically inhabited by the human race, and to display His wisdom, glory, and goodness. And specifically said He did it all in 6 days:

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11

I'm just not seeing the silliness.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I see it as silly to suggest God would create the earth the appear old, if it in fact was young. That is silly. He creates, made and forms.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

God did not create the earth to appear old. Man is who says the earth looks old, by their carbon dating etc.

Funny thing happened in our state about 20+ years ago. We had a volcano erupt leaving behind a complete new landscape and geological change in the mountain. This change left behind layers of earth rock and sediment exactly like that found in the Grand canyon, that is said to have taken millions of years to develop. Yet these layers were formed in lest then minuets by the eruption of Mount Saint Helens.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

What does any of those verses have to do with the claim God made the world look old when it wasn't? That's what I was talking about.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Want to read something cool?

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

:happydance

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

:shockamoo

Those verses simply dismiss your premise. The point of the verses is TIME. God didn't make the world look old. He created it, by the Word of His power. He said and it was so. He commanded and it was done. Over and over God directly affirms creation ex nihilo in 6 days by divine fiat.

Therefore...for someone to assert the earth "looks old" (as in millions/billions of years), is due to their own opinions, influenced by secular science, not the scripture, which is quite plain on relative age of the earth, and origins in general.

Often the argument is made that if the earth is in fact young (approx 6,000-10,000 years) that God is deceiving us by causing it to "look old". But really the opposite would seem true. If the earth were millions/billions of years old, would it not seem God is deceiving us by saying over and over it He created it in 6 days, by His Word, out of nothing?

And how can God be charged with deception (not by you here Mike, but thats a common talking point in this discussion), when He gives us specific information in His Word regarding His work of creation?

He didn't have to give us specifics, Gen 1:1 would have sufficiently established Him as creator, yet He choose to.

Hmm....is that like believing Deuteronomy 22:5 is about pants? :heehee

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

One could argue that it is just the natural result of a supernatural act.

If God formed the garden in which Adam & Eve dwelt, the adjacent rivers, etc. within one literal week, should a hypothetical scientist go backward in time to observe Adam & Eve, that scientist would record observable data. The couple would appear to be full grown adults (appearance of age), living in a garden lush with plant life (appearance of age), fed by several rivers (erosion, etc., showing appearance of age).

The entire fabric of reality would bear an appearance of age.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

If God created a garden lush with trees that would take many decades to become mature... would that not bear an appearance of age?

:thumbsup

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

Whatever happened to the "Gap-Theory"? My first pastor believed and taught the Gap-Theory. I thought it was interesting, but I noticed that the theory seemed to just fade from most discussions.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

I believe it! I mentioned it in this very thread. It makes most sense out of them all in my estimation.

Re: How old do you think the universe is?
 

That's not what the idea of the old apparent earth means, though. To more correctly use your elements of analogy, we would have to say God created the trees with DNA that could aged thirty years, rather than no age in the cellular level whatsoever which I think was the case.

Whatever the true form of what carbon dating is trying to determine, a person would take those trees and find they did not have any signs of aging toward death a moment after they were created, as they would have to have if the aged look theory was correct.

There's a huge difference between something cellularly "aged" between the difference of a sapling or a full grown tree created in a moment by God.