Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I'm finding Revelation one of the most enigmatic books of the bible.

I'm wondering how many people feel the same and how many feel they have firm understanding of the book.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Extremely unclear.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I have a question, if it was difficult to interpret for those living in the first century then why this warning? Revelation 22:18-19?

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I don't believe it was difficult for them in the first century. 2200 years later we can't relate to the writer? Maybe?

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

everyone sees Rome as being the beast
* first century saints see Imperial Rome
* Reformation saints see The Roman Church
* most people today see a revived empire.

it seems like figuring this out is key.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Understanding the content is nearly impossible.

Comparing the vocabulary between the Gospel of John with the book of Revelation is very interesting.

Reviewing the Greek text of Revelation is also very interesting. But only in a really geeky kind of way.

I disagree. It's full of old testament imagery of actual history used as symbols of John's future. That's the key. Along with the note that the events we're at hand.

There is a blessing for those who understand, noting is God's will.

Recognizing Old Testament historical imagery in the book is a huge eye-opener. If it's a revelation that God wills for us to have, then it should not be hard for us. And there should be no arrogance in anyone saying this.

(Why do so many misname the book as "Revelations"? It's Revelation, singular. ;) )

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Revelation 1:3

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who understand, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is close.

The writer of this book penned these words of blessing to people who would understand. What they had going for them is that they were closer to the issues than we are. They were living at a time when people understood the language,understood the times, were taught (some of them) by actual apostles who were with Christ. They were Diaspora Judeans who already had for hundreds of years been reading an OT in Greek so the Greek Revelation of Christ wasn't hard for them to understand. We on the other hand are on the other end of the spectrum. We have been indoctrinated by the Irvin Baxter Jrs and the Tim Lahayes of the world, We have been Charles Larkined to death. We have been told time and time again that the events in the book of Revelation are pointing to every world dictator or president this country had an issue with. Because instead of studying out the Old Testament, and trying to see what the tribes were actually waiting for, we would rather have someone else to the heavy lifting for us. Waiting for someone to sit down and spoon feed us with some ecclesiastical fast food.

Answer this, why are the first century A.D. readers told to understand and solve the gematria numerals of the beast? They are told it's a man, and for them to figure out his name he obviously had to be living in their time. Why? because the question is being posed to "them"

Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.

If this book of the Bible was enigmatic, this verse we are specifically told wasn't.

Especially since it is pointed to the original readers who needed to have the wisdom, and through that gain understanding. Folks please take into consideration that you are reading manuscripts which date back to the Bronze age. The book of Revelation doesn't stand alone, isn't interpreted by the New Testament alone. You need to know the OT, with the prophets. Understand that the OT Hebrews weren't awaiting Azusa Street.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

You must be a professor at a Bible college. :thumbsup

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Good grief! Another issue we agree on. Hold On folks a storm is brewing!! LOL!!

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

First century church was persecuted by the Judean religion they were once a part of. The Apostle Paul was protected by his status in Imperial Rome. Because he was by his name Paulos part of an Empirical Roman Patrician family as Yohanna Marcus was. Could be one of the reasons they were at odds with each other. Mystery Babylon had the blood of the prophets and the saints. We tend to see saints ONLY as church members. The saints here are OTs, not just NTs.

Keep in mind that the Reformation (like ex-Apostolic Pentecostals) had axes to grind. Reformation wanted to fit the Roman Catholic Church into the book of Revelation. You will find this throughout church history, any enemy of any group gets wedged into the book of Revelation. Obama lost his antichrist position and Donald Trump had to pick up the baton. Interpreting the book of Revelation through current events have been happening since the day one of Revelation's publishing.

People today? See it as the revived Roman Empire? You mean like Mussolini? People today wouldn't know what a revived Roman Empire would look like. Sir John Bagot Glubb's book Fate of Empires is a good explanations of any world empire. Nebuchadnezzar's image wasn't an outline of empires since Babylon. Because then the image is missing empires who rose and fell since Babylon. The empires of the image had one thing in common. They all held power over Judea through occupation. Until you get to feet which has the potters clay baked with Roman Iron. Only time we see that going on is when the religious Judeans threaten a Roman official with "If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar." Which is complete with the Judean priestcraft leadership proclamation of "We have no king but Caesar,"

You have to keep this in its Judaic confines, and stop dragging it over to Mom's apple pie, baseball, and Chevrolet. It was written to an ancient people for their situations, which they understood better then we. It was written to them, and it benefits us now.

The flaming sword has been removed and we have access to Eden.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Lol

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I believe that Revelation was written in a way that serves all three purposes. It gave faith and hope to the first century saints to truly did believe they were quite possibly living through the end times. But, they weren't. Throughout Christian history, after the rise of the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire, Revelation gave faith and hope to those precious saints suffering under Catholic persecution, and they too truly believed that they were seeing the end time upon them. But, they weren't. And today, it gives us faith and hope in light of increasing globalization and religious extremism and persecution around the globe. We too believe that we might very well be in the end times. However, we don't know. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. The unfolding of the Great Tribulation may very well be within our lifetimes. Or... it may be generations away. We don't know.

But the purpose of the Revelation is served. It will continue to give faith and hope to the church of Christ up until that very hour when Christ returns and subdues the kingdoms of this world and establishes His Kingdom.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Awesome!

Here's what churchanity teaches you. The book of the Revelation is a carrot on a stick. Everyone chasing their ecclesiastical tails, and therefore it's all up in the air for you. Imagine, a book which is to give a revelation of the love story of Christ and His bride has been reduced to a story concerning destruction?

So much in fact that the very word Apocalypse lost its meaning. It no longer means to reveal, but it means to people "today" as utter destruction. Well, we also live in a culture where gay no longer means cheerful. But means homosexual?

Good grief.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

It's no different than looking backwards in time to an alleged fulfillment and drawing faith and hope in dire circumstances one might face today.

Futurism doesn't mean destruction to me. It means the days of this corrupt world are numbered and a glorious Kingdom will be established culminating in a glorious New Creation void of sin, sickness, aging, and death. And at this time we have the opportunity to turn to God and be a part of that Kingdom. It also means that Christ Himself will establish His Kingdom. There is no need to establish a theocracy on earth. We are but ambassadors telling the corrupt nations of this world to repent, for their days are numbered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8-NxI_IWd0

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I have a question for you my Brother, how long did it take for you to transition from dispensationalism, to mid trib, to historicism, to PP?

and yes, I'm a :bigbaby and want to take advantage of the study of others :highfive

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Never was a Dispensationalist, but was told to read and understand what was the hope of the OT Isrealies. So I was always Historic Post Trib. Then one day I got into a debate and had to consider what the present audience needed to understand. I had to fully understand that those who were listening to the Revelation, had to be the ones being the first recipients of the book's blessing.
Yet, we are literally convinced that for over 2,000 years and counting it wasn't meant for any of the readers? My lands it has a warning that no one is to misinterpret a book to readers over 2,000 years ago? But it was impossible for them to understand it? All this made me consider that where I was at in my privious eschatology needed to be reexamined. I didn't do this in a corner, I took my show on the road, and bounced it off of one and all. Sadly I found out that my dearest breathren didn't even know actually what they believed.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Yet, isn't that how we originally got in the pickle we were in?

One Bible and so many opinions? Jesus Christ and the Cross has to be the main focus of our final conclusion. Jesus told the thief, I tell you this day, you will be in Eden with Me. Awesome words for those who understand them.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

In the midst of all the craziness of my life I'm slowly trying to take the same journey...in a corner for now until I get more sure of my understanding.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

The "seed of a woman" defeating the serpent was a prophecy of a virgin birth. This prophecy was fulfilled thousands of years after the time of its original recipients. Certainly every generation who understood the prophecy (to at least some degree) thought that it might be fulfilled in their day, though it wasn't. I don't see an issue.

Where does the Revelation offer a warning to those who misinterpret it? I do know of a warning against tampering with the text:

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Thus protecting the text from being tampered with for the sake of future generations was seen as an absolute necessity. So important in fact, tampering with the text could cost one their soul.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Adding to and taking away isn't about just the text. If it was then we would all have to learn GREEK. Adding or taking away is telling a different story then was originally intended by the writer. Peter warns about this concerning the writings of Paul. Peter said the unstable and unlearned twist Paul's words as they do the rest of the scriptures. Even though Paul's words were hard to understand wasn't an excuse. You still couldn't remove his meanings or intent.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

You aren't given any time specific language. No mention in Genesis that the time was near. Yet, you have that in the first chapter of the Revelation.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I've read several works by Chilton, Sproul, Russel, Gentry, and Demar. They don't all agree on the story being told in Revelation. Who's going to Hell? Which Preterist's work is 100% accurate? Preterism is essentially eschatological Monday night quarterbacking. And nearly every Preterst I've met has a different angle, just like the Futurists I've met.

I contend that it is about tampering with the text. Yes, translations have to reward things to get the meaning of the original text. But the original Greek text wasn't to be tampered with.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Now you're referencing an entirely different situation in Scripture, pulling from Peter, and then pulling from Paul. Each had unique concerns, important concerns, concerns regarding tampering with another's writings.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Near is a relative term. To the LORD, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as but a day. Only the Father knows the times appointed. It is written in a manner to keep us all on our toes and in preparation.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Aquila, Peter is talking about scripture being misinterpreted.

Period.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Can the "beast" be the Roman Catholic Church and the Whore Babylon be America?

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Let me see if I'm getting this right, you contend that it's not about misinterpreting what is written, but instead not altering the actual wording in the document. is that right?

So, the epistle should be placed under glass with an alarm system to keep out any typos, but those who read the unaltered text can believe anything they wish? Is that what you believe?

Isn't that confusion? Isn't God not the author of such a mess?

Relative to what? You have the Scripture being written so that it causes fear to be its motivating force. Isn't "fear" said to be a spirit that's not of God?

I agree that the original text should remain as written. But I also believe it was written so the righteous could become sons of light and know all things. Otherwise, how could John's epistle be entitled "The REVELATION of Jesus Christ"? How do you "reveal" something that is buried in confusion and mystery?

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Are we proposing that one must have 100% accuracy in their interpretation/understanding of Scripture or their soul will be lost???

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

No, because the woman riding the Beast is my ex-wife. LOL

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Concerning the meaning of that "thousand years is a day" passage, look HERE.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Revelation 11:8
8..And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 17:1-5
17..And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2..With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3..So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4..And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5..And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Hosea 2

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

This I am interested in. Start another thread to discuss?

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

:texasgranny

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Yes. Because if what is written is altered, false doctrine is a certainty. However, if the text is untampered with, regardless of one's understanding or lack of understanding the actual text remains unadulterated and the truth is always within reach for those who seek it.

Whatever it takes.

Insuring textual integrity is essential for the development of proper doctrine.

There should be no fear of man, devil, or circumstance. However, we do well to fear God, who can destroy both body and soul in Hell, with a holy reverence.

However, the Revelation is a book of precious promise. One day all things will be under the direct Lordship of Jesus Christ.

I believe that even after it's all said and done, we'll find areas of Scripture, especially prophecy, wherein we were mistaken in our understanding and we'll stand in awe with how precise every fulfillment truly was.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

The book of Revelation doesn't make mention of Psalm 90:4. The writer gives zero indication that the reader was to take nearness as some unknown amount of time. These things which the writer is telling his audience were to happen a) shortly, and b) near to them. No way around that wording. God isn't the one who is making this all cryptic. Sadly it is those who are just Ecclesiastically lazy.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

Excellent article. I'd steer clear of equating an exact 1000 years to a day mathematics to prophecy. I think the point is, time is inconsequential to God who is transcendent of time and space.

The point is, from God's perspective, the time is indeed at hand. And all generations should reckon the same since no man knows the day nor hour that the events will truly take place.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

I believe that the Whore of Babylon would best be described as the nation state of modern Israel.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

If you're interested, start the thread. I'll chime in if it is interesting enough.

Re: Do you think Revelations is enigmatic?
 

All that read the Revelation should view the events predicted as being at hand, for no man knows the day nor hour of their fulfillment. Like a soldier on guard duty in the dark of night, he must stand at the ready for the invader at all times lest he fail at readiness.

The thing about Preterism and Historicism is that without history books and authors to flesh out their interpretations of how the symbolism correlates to events that have transpired in history, Futurism will be one's default position.