Church Government (a collective body)
 

The church I attend was left with a generous gift of around 260,000 dollars recently. The way it was received and distributed was decided by the 5 elders and done so very wisely. Made me think of the many apostolic churches and how the one man being the pastor would have had 95-100% of say so as to how this would have been handled. I would think the majority would have done it without any personal gain but what a temptation to put into a single authority.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

It would all depend on whose kingdom the pastor in question is committed to building...his own, or Gods.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

It also depends on how the donation was given. Both donors and church Pastors should be aware of the law when giving/receiving donations. For the donors, it matters how they give if they wish to receive a tax deduction for their donation. For the church and Pastor, it matters how it was given, because one donation could be used "as needed" by the church/Pastor and another could result in civil fraud if not used for its stated purpose.

If a donor gives a "restricted" offering, the church Pastor cannot deviate from what the money was intended to fund. It is against the law, and the church and Pastor could be sued for civil fraud. The plus side for the donor is they can rest assured the money will be used as intended. The negative is the donor cannot receive a tax deduction for the donation.

If a donor gives a general donation, it can be used as needed and the donor will be able to receive a tax deduction.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Accountability and transparency are two things, unfortunately missing from most Apostolic churches. This is one area on which I think the movement could learn from mainstream Christianity. One man should not be in charge of the church. Even the best pastors need a council of elder that he is accountable to.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

It was explained to me, second hand because I was not there for the official announcement. The donor(s) are deceased and it was in a 2 year holding. Their desire was to see the youth dept benefit from it. The decision was to pay off the bulk of a loan. We had a major addition a couple of years ago. Then the church will pay back into on a monthly basis the amount at a reduced interest free amount. This will allow the hiring of a full time youth minister. Yes, full time. Paid. Sounds weird to some I would imagine.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

How large is the church and youth group? Is this a UPC church?

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

As a retired church treasurer, I find this post interesting.

Financial controls make for a peaceful church. They nurture confidence in leadership. They minimize risk.

Full public financial disclosure in the form of an annual financial report that details how every dollar is spent protects the church from the chaos of fiscal blunders and corruption.

We had monthly board meetings where we reviewed the monthly budget. Every dollar that came in and went out was reviewed.

Church employees, including the pastor, were paid as employees. Wages and benefits were determined by the board. Church checks required 2 signatures. One of those persons was not the pastor.

Real estate sales or purchases were voted on by the members of the church. The voting membership roster was regularly updated.

If a large donation was made when I was a treasurer, we would have reduced debt and liked at the upcoming maintenance projects.

But it all depends on the wishes of the giver. Designated gifts are, frankly, a mixed blessing at best. Figuring out how to use gifts that are not really needed can be problematic.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Less than 200, youth group, 20-30 my guess. Not UPC. I was told they will be paid between 30-35 thousand a year. The last full time minister was paid around 90 a year so I assume the new one is paid about the same. We also have a part time paid elderly minister that tends to issues of the same. Amazing what you can do with a membership of this size when following a biblical principal.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Totally agree. I never heard the tithe amount disclosed at a business meeting in an apostolic/UPC church. I asked once and was told "we decided a long time ago to not disclose that". HUH?

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

knowledge is power...

Too many apostolic churches treat the finances like a tightly guarded secret, which allows bitterness to fester and grow. If we don't have anything to hide, why are we hiding? If we do have something to hide, well then we have bigger problems...

I believe wholly in an annual business meeting for the voting members where the finances are disclosed in an open and honest manner.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Interesting. I was an unpaid worship leader and youth pastor for about 12 total years, not at the same time. There were 5 at the beginning, and just over 30 when I left. It would have been nice to have been paid FT. :lol

I don't know many youth ministers who are paid. Unless it's a large youth group and they are having weekly services and classes, I don't see it as beneficial for the church to pay a youth minister.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Yeah, the one time I openly ask, not only was it squelched by the board member running the business meeting, I had a whole lot of "I can't believe you ask that" looks.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Our youth pastor and our seniors pastor were part time employees. So was the janitor. Our only full time employee was the pastor. He was not overpaid.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Is this why "minister, priest, or pastor" was included in the list back in high school Career Day?

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

I’ve been a part of an otherwise good church that was huge and brought in a lot of money and was ran solely by the pastor, and I’m now a part of small church that is much more board ran though we have a strong pastor that the board cannot simply yank his chain.

Having said that, I think it’s important to have a board but man, boards can ruin a church faster than a good pastor who might wrestle with his ego a little.

People will never agree on what exactly a pastor should be paid but the pastor at the big church was a very good man but was still living so far above the average salary of his congregation that it was a little out of line in my opinion. The little church has ran off a lot of good men over the years because they wouldn’t let the pastor operate with the proper pastoral authority. So balance is the key of course but that’s tough to find on any subject.

And I would add that simply having open books is not a good idea. If the board is set up properly, they will keep the purse strings as they should be kept. Every church has a bitter few that would rather see preachers live in poverty and it’s best to keep those people out of the loop. But that’s 100% opinion.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Five can be tempted just as bad as one.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Kenneth Haney told us to find the average income of the church member and use that as our salary.

He never drove a nicer car than a Buick.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Amen

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

I believe this is one area where Apostolic churches have a blind spot.
I have heard many complain about losing their youth, but hardly any churches want to pay a part-time or full-time youth minister.
Like you, nd, I have been worship leader and youth pastor, but have never been paid.
I am not complaining as I never felt I missed anything by not being paid, but I still wish we had paid youth ministers.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

I had a pastor of a large apostolic church offer me a full-time ministry position. I told him that he could not afford me. He said that his policy was to pay a salary that matched what I was making on my job.
His reasoning was if I was worth that much on my job, I was worth that much to the church. He said that was his policy for all staff members.
That was in 2003 and that church has more than tripled since then, not including the 7 or 8 daughter works.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Youth aren't lost by lack of paid youth ministers. They are lost in the home before the church ever realizes any thing's wrong.

Still can't find any of this corporatism in the Bible, though.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

Hmm, vague but I’ll go out on a limb and assume you’re attempting to make a case for completely open books? We shouldn’t sue or otherwise take a brother to court since obviously, a Holy Ghost filled church should have at least one person wise enough to help mediate the matter. And this means also that visitors, new converts and the bitter backslider all need to see the church’s finances? Your post only highlights the lack of Bible for your position, if I assumed your intentions correctly, it was pretty vague.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

I don't believe books must be open for visitors, but they should be open to the members of an assembly.

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

You'd think so. Especially at the annual business meeting. 100%, not some silly work around not to reveal the tithe. If the bible was that explicit about the tithe going to the 21st century westernized pastor then what's the big secret?

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

What is considered a LARGE apostolic church? 100? 1000?

Re: Church Government (a collective body)
 

i would say average is about 150-200.
Large would be 500+, at least IMO.