Help please on a research topic
 

In my "History of Religion in America" class, the thesis for my research paper is,

Now before some of you explode, let me say that I realize the term "orthodox" is subjective. Certainly what we as OP's consider to be "orthodoxy" is different in some respects to what Evangelicals and "Classical Pentecostals" consider it to be. However, the school I attend is AG and, for the sake of objectivity, I do not want to come across as an apologist for the UPCI. That should not be difficult since I plan on being transparent about a couple of areas I struggle with in regards the doctrine of that fellowship. The focus of my research will be to analyze whether or not the UPCI is really as unorthodox by Evangelical standards as some claim it is. Having been an Assemblies of God minister in the past, I feel I can offer some unique insights to this topic.

Here's where I need help from some of you on AFF. If anyone has any writings on the life and teaching of Andrew Urshan, that would be helpful. While I realize he was not "UPC" originally, he made some statements at one point that I feel could add to this discussion.

Also, I am looking for some good references on the history of the UPCI, whether they be pro or con.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

would love to read the paper once it's finished!

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

"What good is orthodoxy if it isn't Truth?" – Pastor Robert L Blakey

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Again, I was hoping to avoid these kinds of comments. You're preaching to the choir. But is you could suggest any resources I'd be most grateful.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Dan Segraves wrote a scholary thesis about Andrew Urshan. Urshan also spilled his own share of ink and most of his books can be found at Amazon. Depending on where you are a student, they might be found in your seminary library.

Generally speaking, a church is a "cult" if it does not adhere to cardinal doctrines. One of those "cardinal" doctrines is the belief in the trinity. So by that standard, any church that does not belief in the trinity fits into the "cult" category.

In practice, some UPC ministers are reject anyone who believes differently than they do. Some do not.

I have seen this first hand when calling ministers and pastors about my book project. Some UPC ministers are outstanding in every way. Real diplomats and are the epitome of grace and intelligence.

Other UPC ministers have nothing to do with me at all because I am not "one of them".

In the academic world, the UPC is treated as peers. Especially in the Society of Pentecostal Studies. Especially among Pentecostal historians. So it depends on which social circle you measure.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Good post.

One of the things I plan to do is to demonstrate that the Oneness doctrine fits, howbeit narrowly, under the umbrella of Trinitarianism, and is thus "orthodox". Of course, you must understand who my readers will be, mainly AG scholars.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

:thumbsup

Sorry, I just like that quote.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Here is a good book:

https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Spir.../dp/0253216036

Lots of footnotes and a good bibliography. A chapter devoted to Andrew Urshan and G.T. Haywood.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

On paper, Oneness does not fit under the umbrella of Trinitarian thought.

In practice, there is a wide diversity of thought about the nature of God.

To a nonchristian, they would appear to be 2 sides of the same coin.

Urshan and Goss famously described God as "tri-unity" instead of trinity.

But please remember, the Oneness ministers, including Urshan, left the AOG over this very issue.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Scott, trinity means tri-unity.

Oneness wasn't coined by those who left the AoG. It was coined by those who called us Jesus Only. Oneness doesn't mean a literal numeral one, but a unified one. We just happen to keep the title going because many of us don't actually care about its true meaning. The Hindu's understand its meaning, and that's because they are Trinitarians. They believe in one god. He is vishnu, which he is a trinity which has multiple avatars which are all his attributes, from Hanuman, to Ganesha. Males, and female avatars. Vishnu is also in everything, from rocks to pencils.

What sets Christianity apart is that we only believe in One God. One literal God, who has ONE NAME Jesus.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Of course it fits.

Oneness' core doctrine(hypostatic union of God) was inherited from it's former group, the trins.

It was reused in a different method called modification.

They are cousins, connected at the hip by the "Mother Superior"(RCC).

All oneness/trin godhead debates are about this modification of hypostatic union, nothing else.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Most studied Oneness believers as well as a lot of rank and file would reject your premise. Just as most studied trinitarians and a lot of their rank and file.

The Jehovah's Witnesses will, however, probably be quoting you in their Watchtower mags. They'll definitely agree with your basic premise.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

That is a baseless comparison. Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Originalist does not teach that. Nor does Oneness or Trinity teach that.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

You're funny, you know that?

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I think what he is saying is that JW's might use such a paper to justify claiming what you do, that Oneness is just a modified form of Trinitarianism. However, the approach I'm taking in this paper may eliminate them being able to do so.

My goal is to use this essay as an opportunity to show the vast divisions within Trinitarianism and that the views on the godhead of a sizable number of Trinitarians are actually more akin to the Oneness view. This will hopefully alienate and isolate the tritheist wing of Trinitarians, forcing them to denounce the "Oneness Trinitarians" as heretics, thus driving them into our camp.

Long shot, I know. But why can't a guy have a little fun while earning his degree? :heeheehee

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

LOL.

Trins are generally not as well versed in their doctrine as one may think, just like oneness believers.

Very few rise up among them with their commentaries.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Biblical and doctrinal illiteracy are rampant in both camps. Our camp is too busy "shouting" while their camp is focused on "your best life now" and "happiness".

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Have you met a New Calvinist? :happydance

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

You have set out to demonstrate something that is not true?

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I guess it can only be judged "true" or "untrue" (as to the question of orthodoxy) depending on the beliefs of individual Trinitarians.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I think it is Honorable for a person to become scripturally minded and a student of the Bible, but the thing that is not honorable is when a person becomes a student of commentaries, then ceases to agree with the Bible as it is seen in its content.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

No, but please clue me in.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Brother, Oneness Pentecostals really aren't "Modalists" like many non-Apostolic Christians think.

I was raised with some would call a, "hyper-Oneness" point of view and it was that point of view that was reinforced in the fellowships I attended from a boy to young adulthood in DC, MD, NC, Japan, and AL.

"Jesus is the Father. Jesus is the Son. Jesus is the Holy Ghost. All Three are One."

Still, even this ^^^ is not Modalism.

I hope you do well with your research paper!

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Says who? Not trying to argue, just wondering who has the keys to the definitional kingdom (whatsoever ye define, shall not be redefined, etc)?

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Could you be clearer with your question?

:highfive
:yourock

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Everyone seems to stumble over the terms involved. That is what Ken Haney told us.

He was right.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Andrew Urshan. According to Frank Ewart:

The Phenomenom Of Pentecost by Frank Ewart Page 123.

Ewart was the ringleader of the Oneness faction of the modern Pentecostal movement.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I appreciate that!

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Thanks for the input. I just bought Segraves book.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I beg to differ. They left the AG because the classical Trinitarian constituents instituted a coup and forced upon the Oneness adherents a statement of faith they knew the OP's could not endorse. Had the AG remained neutral, those men might not have left.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

The Apostolic Oneness movement in America is just over 100 years old. Every great movement and revival in history started out as being labeled a sub-Christian cult. Even Martin Luther and the followers of Protestant Reformers were labeled heretics and cults. It's really the cost of being on the cutting edge of a true move of God. Today, no one calls Lutherans or any other church founded by the Reformers a cult. They are the third of three great wings of Christianity (Orthodoxy, Catholic, Protestant). In 500 years, the Apostolic Movement might also be seen as a great wing of Christianity leaving Orthodoxy, Catholic, Protestant, and Apostolic.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I knew. Elder Andrew Urshan personally. He preached for my father.
During the day I would drive him wherever he wanted to go. During these drives I got to know his thoughts on salvation. Andrew Urshon believed the light doctrine.
One night at the alter he told a man who had been seeking the HG for years that if he really needed the HG God would give to him on the way up.
My father happened to overhear him and that was the end of that revival. The next day I drove Elder Andrew to the bus station.

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

I love Andrew Urshan, but that statement was a little too "light" even for me! haha

Re: Help please on a research topic
 

Very interesting.