voting or casting lots
 

At convention someone asked me how were people put in office in the Bible...Can some of you give an opinion?

voting? casting lots? appointed? any other method?

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Casting lots didn't work out very well, that is the way Matthias was picked and you never heard from him again.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

The other time you hear of casting lots, the Romans were gambling for Jesus garments.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

1 Timothy 3 gives guidance on how to pick leaders. Men of good report with a proven ministry would be elevated into leadership.

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

But how are they to be elevated? Do the elders vote? Is the entire local church to vote? Does a single person assign the position without any input from serving ministers or the congregation? What is the "process"?

Re: voting or casting lots
 

The Apostles prayed and fasted and ordained elders.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Casting lots was an often used method whereby God made His will known. Here are some examples were casting lots was used:

• David divided the Priests by lots: 1 Chronicles 24:5
• The land of Canaan divided by lots: Numbers 26:55-56; Joshua 15, Joshua 16:1-10, Joshua 16:17
• Jonathan was detected of violating King Saul’s command by lots: 1 Samuel 14:41-42
• Achan’s disobedience was discovered by lots: Joshua 7:16-18
• The sacrificial goat and the scapegoat were chosen by lots: Leviticus 16:8-10
• Moses choosing the 70 elders was by lot: Numbers 11:16, Numbers 11:24-26

The issue of Matthias not being mentioned again after Acts 1, the same thing could be said for many of the other apostles. Here is a breakdown of those mentioned and those who are not:

1. Yes - Peter
2. Yes – James (the elder/see Acts 12:1-2)
3. Yes – John
4. No – Andrew
5. Yes – Philip
6. No – Thomas
7. No – Bartholomew
8. No – Matthew
9. Yes – James (“The Lessor.” May have written James’ epistle)
10. No – Simon Zealotes
11. N0 – Judas (Jude, brother of James)
12. No – Matthias

Finally, although historical record is not comparable with the inspired Word of God, they do lend some credence to the importance placed on Matthias in what is said to be early church history. Here are some quotes I found:

So, I think casting lots worked out pretty good for Matthias.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

I am contemplating the post above. I have heard it said that Matthias was incorrectly chosen and that Paul was supposed to be the 12th Apostle.

otherwise, Paul is the 13th Apostle . . .

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Peter’s words in Acts 1:21-22 gives four points that must be met before a man could be “numbered with” the originally chosen twelve apostles. Without these four qualifications, no one could biblically be a “part of this” specific “ministry” (see Acts 1:17, Acts 1:25). The following is a list of these four points and whether or not Judas, Matthias, or Paul met their criterion:

1. men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us (verse 21)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

2. Beginning from the baptism of John (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

3. unto that same day that he was taken up from us, (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

4. must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (verse 22)

Judas—Yes
Matthias—Yes
Paul—No

We know that Judas and Matthias met these four points. However, Paul did not, and as a result, Paul could not have been Judas’ replacement. This importance of this four-point criterion has witness in the New Testament, as seen in this verse:

Matthew 19:27-28
(27) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
(28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 10:39-41
(39) And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
(40) but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
(41) not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Luke 22:28-30
(28) Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
(29) And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
(30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Peter 5:1
(1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

After the Holy Ghost fell, the Bible says Matthias was God’s choice to replace Judas. This is found in Acts 2:14. There it says, “Peter, standing up with the eleven…” The “eleven” plus Peter equals 12 apostles. This is inspired scripture so I have to believe this math is accurate.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Paul was an apostle though wasn't he?

1 Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Yes, Paul most certainly was.

The Bible lists other apostles that were not members of the original chosen twelve. (See Matthew 10:1-4) Here are those verses:

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

James was not one of the original 12. He was martyred in Acts 12:2. Afterward, the Elders separate Paul and Barnabas to go and do a specific task (see Acts 13:2-3).

Acts 14:14 When the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard what was happening, they were very upset. They rushed into the crowd

Barnabas was not one of the original 12.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

“Sent” is the Greek word “apostellō” (see Strong’s G649). Strong’s defines it as: set apart, that is, (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively: - put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty]. Barsabas and Matthias where probably in this group of seventy “sent” ones, which explains why they both qualified for Peter’s four-point criteria for the casting of lots.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Excellent and concise!

:highfive

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Thank you. It’s part of an unfinished study I did on the twelfth apostle. Because of this thread I decided to finish it for my website.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Thank you :highfive

Re: voting or casting lots
 

So, it appears that elders/bishops/pastors (or whatever we wish to call them) ordained elders within the church after much prayer. I think they may have voted... or... perhaps they prayed until there was a general consensus regarding who was to be ordained.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

I'm thankful for the teachers we have on AFF. I have learned so much here. We have amazing teachers.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

I believe you're right about the prayer. Of course, prayer should always be the first thing done before any such decision is made. We know the Apostles prayed before choosing between Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. (see Acts 1:24) After asking God for wisdom and guidance, the men displaying signs of Eldership, and who were faithful to meet the criteria in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, they were recognized for their particular five-fold ministry's calling. (see 1 Timothy 1:18, Titus 1:5; Acts 14:23; 2 Timothy 2:2) This recognition came with the laying on of hands. (see 1 Timothy 4:14, 1 Timothy 5:22, 2 Timothy 1:6) Timothy was "charged" to fulfill his ministry according to prophecies that came before the recognition of his calling. (see 1 Timothy 1:18) Thus, the assembly of believers recognized Timothy's specific position within the five-fold ministry, which many believe was an evangelist.

I'm not sure if the above qualifies as a "vote," but it certainly agrees that it was a "consensus" recognition.

I do not see why Apostolics today should not pursue their leadership the same way Apostolics did in the early Church. Sadly, many (most all?) Apostolics are under a completely different method of "choosing" a pastor. Their method would be very foreign to their early Church brethren. To have a pastor chosen for them because he is their current pastor's son or son-in-law is nothing like the method used in the Bible. I'm not saying these appointed men are necessarily ungodly or wrong choices, but there are too many cases where men put men in pulpits who were not called to be there.

Then there's the voting in of a pastor. Most of these candidates are "invited" to "try out" the church to see if it's a good fit. Often these invitations are sent by a source that does not attend that local congregation. Sometimes they're sent by the current pastor to men he wants to replace him. Then the candidate receiving the most votes gets the job. Sounds like Apostolics Got Talent, doesn't it? What causes a church member to vote for one man over another? Often it's a candidate's charisma, or it's his oratory skill in the pulpit, or it's how popular he his is within an organization, or it's because he has the suffix "Dr" before his name, or it's due to the current pastor's persuasion. Again, it's not that those things are necessarily bad, but none of them are found in what's written in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1.

What would it take to return to choosing leadership like they did in the early church? For starts, like most doctrine restorations, the believer first must disregard any manmade traditions or personal feelings they may have about this, and then learn what biblically they need to be taught. Men love saying "God is their pilot," that is until they move Him to the co-pilot seat because their lack of faith says He needs their help. That said, I believe the largest holdup to this is it requires absolute faith in God's ability to choose the leaders He wants. God included in His Word the principles that must be met before a man is available for Eldership. And, Paul warned the Church to "lay hands on no man suddenly." (1 Timothy 5:22) So, no man should be ordained unless those doing the ordination knows that man meets the biblical requirements to be God's choice.

Re: voting or casting lots
 

Timothy and Titus were told by Paul to ordain elders. These elders are "bishops", that is, overseers, and seem to fit the role that we usually ascribe to the "Pastor". Now, Paul was an apostle, and had authority over the churches he had established. In modern parlance, Paul was a missionary, tasked with going into areas where there was no church, preaching to the lost, and taking those whom the Lord saved and welding them into a community of believers (a church). Either he, or those whom he appointed to fulfill that apostolic ministry in his absence (like Timothy and Titus, who appear to have functioned as Paul's representatives), would then at some point ordain elders/overseers who would assume responsibility for the continued oversight of the church and the continuation of the teaching and pastoral ministries.

But it does not appear Paul or Timothy or Titus ordained elders in a vacuum. The list of qualifications of elders he gave them includes the qualifications of "deacons" ("ministers" or "servants"). Also, his epistles to Timothy and Titus appear to have been intended to be read by all the church, which would imply that the church needed to know what the qualifications for overseers and ministers were as well. And this implies the church had some input as to who was to be viewed as qualified.

Which hearkens back to the appointment of the Seven, in Acts 6. The apostles told the church to put forward seven men, and the apostles ordained them to their specific ministry (in this case, it was the distribution of material aid to the widows of the church).

Which in turn hearkens back to the appointment of the replacement for Judas Iscariot. In that case, again the whole congregation was consulted. The church was to identify the candidates, and the apostles were to confirm through prayer and the laying on of hands the one(s) to be ordained.

So the apostolic practice seems to be not quite merely appointment by leadership, nor merely congregational vote, majority rule, or even unaminous consent. Rather, it seems to have been a combination of both leadership and congregation working together. Where the congregation puts forward candidates that would be acceptable to the congregation, and then existing leadership (oversight) after prayer would either approve the congregation's choice(s), or would select from among the put-forward candidate list.

If the congregation put forward choices that leadership did not approve of, obviously there would need to be some discussion on the part of everyone involved (as occurred with the Acts 15 church meeting, where the whole congregation, the elders, and the apostles were all involved in discussing, praying about, and eventually resolving the issue to everyone's satisfaction).

The pattern seems to be a missionary preacher enters a new area, preaches the gospel, the Lord saves whom He will, the missionary preacher is then primarily tasked with taking that new, core group from beginner level to relative self-sufficiency, then informs the congregation they need elders from amongst themselves. The church puts forward one or more candidates (depending on the size of the church and its needs) who will serve as overseers and servants, and (assuming everything is kosher) the missionary or his representative ordains these ministers.

Now, the church has some functioning leadership, and the missionary can continue his mission in the next location (usually nearby). He will continue to function as an overseer or elder but will in effect begin to "fade" in the hands on maintenance of that church as its own indigenous eldership and ministry assume those functions. As the church grows, and as time goes on, new ministers and new overseers will be required, and the cycle is repeated this time with the existing overseers (elders) functioning in the place of the original apostolic missionary.

This way, all leadership and ministry in a church is indigenous to that assembly (not imported from outside except during the church planter's initial efforts).

Seems like that would be the Biblical way to do it.

How many existing churches would be willing to do it that way? I'm skeptical but you never know... :)