Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Just my thoughts as I read the scriptures

EL-OHIM (GOD ALMIGHTY)
Later called the “I AM”: the Eternal One
(His NAME had not yet been revealed)
He is Love: He needed to express Love
He would later create man, to express His Love in him
___

Universe established…(?)
.
The ‘heavens’ were first established
The [earth] was without form…void…in darkness
(I would assume the heavens/universe were also...in darkness)
___

Angels were created
.
They were given a free will to “remain” faithful
Angels were delegated some authority
Lucifer was an arch-angel
___

Iniquity was found in Lucifer
.
Iniquity Defined: unfaithful in the presence of Truth
He CHOSE to be unfaithful
Iniquity (or sin) cannot stand in the place of Holiness
Iniquity was cast out from the presence of Holiness

Can anyone fill in some blanks BEFORE creation as known?


Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The word beginning means the start. Thus, there is no "before the beginning."

Otherwise, the beginning is when God made the heavens and earth and all things therein. In which case we can only speculate - we have no solid data.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Well, my eighth grade education is showing!

I should have been more precise: In the beginning [before the creation
of the heavens and the earth...]. I did not think I needed to state that, since
eternity has no beginning, and neither does God. MEA CULPA.

Any other thoughts, Beloved?

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Well, I was just pointing out a lot of people think there was some "before" the "in the beginning" which technically makes no sense. It's like saying a round square or something.

I don't know of any verse that says what happened between the beginning moment and God creating the heavens and the earth. Maybe God took a deep breath and said "Well, heeeeeeeere we go!"
:)

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

LOL. So God just goes, "He-eeeeer's Jesus!" I would imagine that that is
something those believing in something like Greek mythology would entertain.

Well, Beloved, my reading of the scriptures have me believing that something
DID happen BEFORE the creation of the natural realm. Believing that nothing
unholy can stand in the presence of Holiness; believing that this universe was
created because God knew that iniquity would be found in Lucifer; believing
that Lucifer and his followers were cast out from the presence of Holiness.

Now, if the casting out of Lucifer is true, then God would have had to create a
place for all those angels! Hence: the "...earth was without form...void...and
darkness...". Then we can see everything else falling into place in God's plan
for man's redemption.

I know, some are already saying that there was no man and no sin...yet. But
God knew man would sin, that is why he said, regarding the forbidden fruit,
"...onthe day that you eat thereof...". There was no and, if's, or but's about it.
Adam ate of the forbidden tree's fruit, and he began to die.

Beloved, I'm just trying to fill in some gaps. I KNOW the church has all the info
we need to rejoice in the judgment of sin and redemption of man.

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

hahha!:toofunny

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Lucifer is a Latin title for the king of Babylon. There was and is no supernatural being named "Lucifer" who was the choir director in heaven and who decided to overthrow God and was kicked out of heaven as a result, taking 1/3rd of the angelic host with him. THAT'S pagan mythology, brother.

Lucifer was "cast DOWN" when God brought down the Babylonian Empire. See:

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
(Isaiah 14:4)

Isaiah chapter 14, which is the only place in the KJV where the word "lucifer" appears, contains a PROVERB (a parable) against the KING OF BABYLON.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(Isaiah 14:12-16)

Lucifer was a man, the king of Babylon. He exalted himself but would be cast into hell (sheol, hades, the grave). If this is "the chief of the fallen angels" then there's a problem... he hadn't been cast down yet when Isaiah 14 was written!

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts. The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
(Isaiah 14:20-25)

Lucifer is the king of Babylon, who would be punished, and his sons and remnant would be punished as well. This is speaking of the destruction of Babylon, not some heavenly angelic being.

Well, when we understand that "lucifer" is an historical epithet of the king of Babylon, everything else does indeed fall into place: the idea of a heavenly archangel rebelling against God and taking a bunch of angels with him is seen to be pagan bunk. In fact, both Peter and Jude expressly condemned this doctrine! I'll have to find the thread on 2 Peter and Jude that goes in depth into that subject. The "fallen angels" myth is a false doctrine of the Enochite Jews expressly condemned by the new testament.

Adam's fall occurred after the "beginning" and after the creation of heaven and earth.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

I had to laugh right after I typed that.

lol

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Bro Esaias, how did the demonic forces originate. All that God created is good, and yet we have snake in the garden tempting Eve.

Could the parable in Isaiah be a shadow of the fall of the angels before the garden?

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

So you subscribe to a literal translation of the scriptures.
1) I believe that the spiritual realm is manifest in the natural realm; and the
natural realm attests to the reality of the spiritual realm. I don't see it as a
pagan thing: even pagans have some truth! Or why is the story of the flood
talked about in pagan circles? I mean, they also know history.

2) Our Lord spoke to his disciples in parables: oftentimes touching upon natural
truths. “He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever
hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever
hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to
them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.”

It is given to the church to understand, perceive, and discern, that we may
rejoice in the truth to obey it. That we may SEE God's plan as it unfolded to
reveal the gospel that saves: that it might include all who believe and obey!

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

I have no idea where demons come from, as the scriptures don't say anything about their origin, as far as I have found.

The parable in Isaiah is a parable/proverb concerning the king of Babylon. There is no reason to think it applies to someone whom the Bible does not say it applies to. "Lucifer" is the term used in the Latin translation for the Hebrew "hallal" (sp?) which was a title used by powerful kings. It means "bright one" and if I recall is actually a reference to Venus, the morning star. Hence the epithet "son of the morning". Lucifer is a Latin term meaning "bearer of light" or "bright one", and was also used by the Romans as a name for Venus (the planet).

The Latin also has Lucifer in Job 11:17, which in the KJV has morning.

So Lucifer was not a proper name for the devil until the middle ages. You can thank the Roman Catholic Church for that. :)

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

We cannot insert into the Bible ideas not conveyed by the words of scripture. The words of the Bible are spiritual. Literal does not mean non-spiritual. Nor does spiritual mean non-literal.

I believe the words of God are the only, and final, authority for both faith and practice. If we can't go by the words of scripture, we have nothing to go by except opinion. May as well kiss the pope's ring at that point.

I take the Bible literally in the sense I accept what it says and don't go looking for doctrines that were never in it to begin with. If people hadn't already heard the story of Lucifer the archangel choir director in heaven attempting a coup back "in the beginning" they would never get that concept strictly from the Bible.

It comes from Enochite Judaism with its myths and fables of Samael the angel who rebelled against God with a cohort of angelic allies, eventually mating with women, prompting the Flood in Noah's day. And if you look closely at Babylonian and older Sumerian "Annunaki" myths you see where that idea originated - Chaldea/Shinar, likely as a pagan corruption of the history of Sethite intermarriage with others.

As for the non-Israelite Flood stories, I'm not sure what that has to do with Isaiah 14? But keep in mind Israel had an extensive maritime empire and had contact with lots of different people groups...

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!


Now this:
"...thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." Do you
believe that a proverb is a fable invented by men? For what purpose? Is it to
enhance false doctrines? Do you that those peoples you mentioned inserted
their belief system into the scriptures? Would that not nullify the scriptures
from being the Word of God?

What about this word:
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when
I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the
Father."

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Ιsaiah listen to Isaiah :highfive
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Lucifer= Greek Eos-foros (he that brings the light)
Hebrew = hê·lêl (the morning star)

Now for the rest what are you said you have right is a mythological title for pagan gods. But this was his position and he still believe that he brings the light to humans!
Even now days the Orthodox high-priest "brings the light" to Catholics every Easter (symbolically) form the grave of Christ.
The same old story...

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

I am not sure what you are asking. I certainly don't believe that men invented a fable and inserted it into Isaiah.

Isaiah ch 14 is a divinely given proverb or parable that is explicitly directed against the king of Babylon. The term "lucifer" is a Latin term roughly (though not exactly) equivalent to helel (sp?), which is a title used by ANE kings.

The idea of Lucifer being an archangelic choir director etc etc is a myth found nowhere in the bible at all. The real Lucifer is the king of Babylon, who is long dead and buried in ignomity and failure.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!


Beloved, I am not asking anything.

All I did was cite two scriptures: one in the OT, and one in the NT. As you have
seen, the prominent word (to me) in those verses is proverb. I did not insert
that word into the scriptures, but "...holy men of God spoke as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit." The Lord has NOT opened all the scriptures to
ALL men, and therefore men can only understand the scriptures within the
boundaries of their own limited understanding. I know you have heard this:
"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE..."

I will cite this rule (in the study of scripture): "We live in two realms which
are the spiritual realm and the natural realm. The spiritual realm can manifest
itself in the natural realm; while the natural realm attests to the existence of
the spiritual realm." To point this out, one must only look at what is happening
in the natural realm: women aborting their children by the millions; and in the
spiritual realm, the church (signified as a bride) is being tempted to abort the
WORD, and many have succeeded by creating their own denominations!

"Except a man be begotten of God, he cannot see..."

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Are you saying the king of Babylon is a type or representation of an evil non-human being named "Lucifer"? And that the things said of the king of Babylon are figures representing things concerning this Lucifer being? And that Isaiah chapter 14 is called a "proverb" because it is symbolic of that spiritual reality reflected by the king of Babylon and the things said of him?

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Re: King of Babylon:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Was the King of Babylon ever in heaven?

And we mustn't forget Tyrus!
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy
covering...Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in
the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day
that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"
So was Tyrus really in Eden at the beginning, and did he really walk in the
midst of the stones of fire?

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

EL-OHIM: GOD ALMIGHTY
The ONE who has all Might and Power in Himself.“In the beginning, El-ohim,
the One who has all Might and Power, created the heavens and the earth.”
However, His NAME had not yet been revealed.

Ex. 3:13-14
“And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel,
and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you;and
they shall say to me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say unto them? And
God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall thou say unto
the children of Israel, ‘I AM hath sent me unto you’.”
Nope: still no revelation of His NAME.

Exo. 3:14
El-ohim had described Himself as the Eternal One: the ONE who has existed and
will always exist. God could just as easily have described Himself just as WE
know Him: the One “…which is, and which was, and which is to come…”

Exo 6:2
”...but by my NAME Yah-weh was I not known to them.” The NAME by which it
pleased El-ohim to be known was now made manifest. It is the NAME by which
He PROMISED to bring salvation, healing, peace, deliverance, and make men
righteous, etc.; if the Israelites would obey Him. It's the NAME Yah-weh (it's
translated Je-hovah): Yah (the Savior) who WILL SAVE by Himself. The
promise to save is found in the words will save.

Now we all know that NAME by which El-ohim has fulfilled His Promise: “For all
the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen…”. It is the NAME which
Yah-weh commanded the angel to reveal to a young virgin girl: “…thou shalt call
his name Je-sus" (which is translated from Yah-shua): for he shall save
his people from their sins.”

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Good post.:nod

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!


Jesus is Lord.


Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

WELL, HERE'S MY TAKE, after the Lord made up His mind as to what to do:
(No, I wasn't there, and neither were you)

(A) The Lord chose a most minute place in eternity, and chose to enclose
it in time;
(B) God created the angels, knowing iniquity would be found in one of them;
(C) God placed the angelic rebels into that place enclosed in time;
(D) God created angels BEFORE He established grace.
(E) God then established the Laws of Creation:

1) God established Grace, whereby man (whom He knew would fall into sin)
would be saved;
2) God created the waters, and established their separation;
3) God created the "dry", and for it to have fruit;
4) God created time, and the heavenly bodies to denote time;
5) God created life to be in the waters, and in the air;
6) God formed the animals and formed man from the dust of the ground;
7) God rested, thereby promising a rest for mankind.

I believe those Laws are engraved in man: and we either submit to them, or
rebel against them.

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

I believe both Peter and Jude spoke rather harshly of those who accused angels of rebellion against God.

Does no one ever stop to ask: Where exactly is this prehistoric angelic rebellion taught in Scripture? Does it not seem strange to have a full blown doctrine outlining a complete scenario, yet no such scenario is described in scripture? The Biblical statements that supposedly support that scenario do not lay it all out, it's just "hints" and little suggestive statements that, taken in themselves, do not give the fallen angel scenario. So where'd it come from?

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

(a) "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Beloved, have we brought out a "railing accusation" against anyone?

(b) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels..."

What is the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, and the prophetic office?

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

This did not take place "in the beginning" but after the man-child was born and was caught up to heaven!

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The issue discussed more in depth here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=49089

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Yes, I caught that: which brings up, I think, a bigger issue.

Is this "...man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron..." someone
other than the Lord Jesus?
And who is the woman that has grace shining upon her, and mercy under her
feet; she who has the apostles' doctrine for a crown?

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The man child is Jesus. The woman is Israel.

:thumbsup

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Very Good.
So if the woman is Israel, then it's speaking about something in the future?
But the child was born 2,000 years ago...?
And it seems that the "war" between the angels is also future...but iniquity
was found in the archangel...when? You see the problem?

Let's roll it back: if the woman is Israel, where is the Church? Can there be
a redeemed Israel without the Church? Not according to the Apostle Paul.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept
upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little..."

IT'S NOT LIKE READING A BOOK THROUGH: MORE LIKE READING A PUZZLE

Brother Villa

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The vision is two-fold. It starts in heaven, and finishes on earth. The heavenly woman is mother Jerusalem from Galatians, and the man child is the church. The earthly woman is the Jerusalem which now is from Galatians, and the man is Jesus, the Christ of God. My thoughts anyway.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The woman is Israel, which produced the Messiah. After producing the Messiah, and after His ascension, the woman was persecuted. She went into the wilderness during the persecutions. Thus, the dragon sought to destroy Israel but she was hidden from the dragon's fury.

Revelation 12 provides an overview of the basic flow of history from the time of Messiah's first coming.

The casting down of the dragon to the earth appears to be related to the Ascension of Christ. There is no verse that says iniquity was found in any archangel. The church is Israel under the new covenant, those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

The woman is crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. These are all symbols hearkening back to Joseph's dreams. The man-child was the one who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, therefore must first of all be the Messiah. Which makes the woman Israel.

The church shares in the destiny of the man child, since the church is the Body of Christ (see also the vision in Daniel 7 where the Son of Man represents the saints of God, which is appropriated to Jesus in the Gospels as the pre-eminent Israel or servant of God). There is no "two women" in Revelation 12.

The vision appears in heaven, of a woman, who delivers a baby boy destined to rule the earth. She (the same woman) flees into the wilderness to her prepared place. One woman.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

By your reasoning, the woman in heaven would have had to follow Satan when he is cast into the earth. Because once he arrives with a thud on earth, he commences to go after the woman here on earth. I agree that there is only one woman, but I think chapter 12 shows us that one woman both in her spiritual reality, and her earthly one.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Here is the church:12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went off to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

My reasoning is not that the woman was in heaven and then came down to the earth. The text only speaks of one woman. If you want to make up "a woman in two aspects" that's your business, I just go with what the text actually says.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Very Good
I also believe Rev 12, is an "overview of history": and you would have done well
to have placed that sentence at the beginning.

(a) The woman did BEAR and gave birth to the Messiah, not "produced" him. But yes.
She went into hiding when she was dispersed among the nations...

(b) Focus should be on the timeline of the dragon's casting down; it almost seems as
if it was during the child's birth, etc. [Almost].

(c) But we mustn't forget the proverbs against the king of Babylon...against Tyrus!

(d) Of course she is: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd."

Yes: there is only ONE woman (nation/church). There has always been only one.

Brother Villa

Revelation 12 is about Christ ascending to the right hand throne, and we are seated with him. That's not future . It's 2000 years old.

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

Ι think
Woman is Maria and symbolize Israel
Son is Jesus (?some people say that symbolize the raptured church?)
the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. is the Christian Church (both Hebrews and Gentiles)

Re: Before the beginning...what?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Yes. The Lord was certainly "...caught up unto God, and to his throne."
Yes. That certainly transpired about 2,000 years ago.

So, "...his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to
the earth...": were these saints or angels? If angels, was this a reflection of the
past, before "time" began? or was this a repetition of what actually happened
to angels, but now foretelling the coming apostasy?

Brother Villa