2 Thess 2
 

Would someone be kind enough to give an explanation of this passage of scripture, please.

2 Thessalonians
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, In light of, as well as concerning, the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him. He has already come in power into the kingdom, and we are being gathered together unto Him by the preaching of the Gospel, but He will also come (return) and we shall be gathered together in the resurrection to Him. And in view of these things, and concerning these things, we beseech you as follows:
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. We beseech you not to be disturbed as though the coming of the Lord and our final gathering together with Him was imminent and upon us.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Do not allow anyone to deceive you, because that day will not happen until certain things occur first, namely an apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin who follows the example of Judas the son of perdition.
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This man of sin is opposed to God, exalts himself above everything called God or that men worship, establishing himself as if he were God, and he sits in the temple (church) of God, making himself out to be as if he were God, usurping the divine prerogatives of the Spirit.
(5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? These things have already been taught to you, so do not forget what you were taught, and hold fast to the doctrine you originally received.
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. You already know what prevents the rise and revealing of this man of sin.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The hidden secret of lawlessness (rebellion against God's divine laws) is already working, but there is something preventing this mystery of lawlessness from coming into full fruition. But until that preventive force is removed, the secret plot of lawlessness and rebellion will continue working behind the scenes.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Once the preventive force is removed, the Lawless will be revealed. This Lawless force will be eventually destroyed by the spirit or breath of the Lord's mouth and the brightness of His coming.
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, The Lawless will come on the scene and succeed to power through lying signs and wonders according to the working of the adversary.
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. The ones who fall away after the man of sin, the Lawless One, will be deceived. And they are easily deceived because they practice and prefer unrighteousness and lawlessness rather than obedience to the laws of God. They do not receive a love of the truth which would enable them to be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Because they have no love for the truth, but prefer lies and lawlessness instead, God Himself will give them a powerful, deceiving influence, to cause them to believe a lie. God will confirm them in their apostasy.
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. God will do this in order to secure their damnation, because they do not believe the truth (the word of God) but instead prefer unrighteousness.
(13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: You, however, have been chosen to be saved. This salvation comes through your being set apart to God by the work of the Spirit in you causing you to believe the truth.
(14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. He called you to salvation and being set apart to God by the apostles gospel message, so that you could obtain and share in the resurrection glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Because of this fact that God has chosen you to be saved and to obtain the glory of Christ through being set apart by the Spirit through believing the apostolic gospel, Do not be moved away from the original apostolic faith and practice which you have received from the apostles, whether by letter or by personal instruction.
(16) Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
(17) Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. Jesus Himself, and God our Father, loved us, and given us eternal comfort and hope through His mercy and blessings, and we pray that He would comfort your heart and establish you in perfect obedience to the gospel, preventing your being moved away from the truth or being disturbed by false doctrines.



A few remarks:

1. The man of sin is identified with Judas "the son of perdition". This indicates the man of sin would be apostolic in origin, as Judas was an apostle, and that the man of sin would betray Christ. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians ch 11 concerning the Lord's Supper show that one who betrays and abuses the saints betrays and abuses the body of Christ, and is guilty as Judas was of betraying the Lord's physical body. Thus, we see that the man of sin is to found among those in apostolic succession (ie, eldership, having the oversight of the church) but who would betray Christ by abusing the saints. So the man of sin would be characterised by wayward and apostate church leadership.

2. The man of sin is said to sit in the temple ('naos') of God. This is a phrase used by Paul exclusively for the church. The man of sin enthrones himself in the church of God.

3. The man of sin would be on display as soon as a restraining force would be taken out of the way, and would continue his career until he was destroyed by the return of Jesus Christ at which time the resurrection of the saints would occur. There was some kind of restraining power that prevented the hidden working of lawlessness from coming to full fruition in the church which would reveal the man of sin. Many things have been proposed as to the identity of this restraining influence, but I am currently of the opinion that it is the secular Roman power. As long as the secular Roman power held sway, the man of sin could not be fully revealed in all his ugliness and naked, raw grasping for power. Once the secular Roman power fell, it was supplanted by the clerical power of the bishop of Rome, which established itself as "God on the earth". This was not the arrival of the man of sin, but merely the revealing of the man of sin as to his true character and identity. The man of sin had already been in the church of God, usurping the role of Christ as Head of the church. Once secular Roman government fell to apostate ecclesiastical influences, the man of sin could be revealed as to his true character.

4. The man of sin arose within the church along with a rising tide of apostasy. There was to be a post-apostolic falling away from the original apostolic faith and practice. We have seen this clearly in the historical record - not long after the death of the apostles the church was inundated with false doctrines and non-apostolic practices, such as trinitarianism, sprinkling and pouring instead of immersion, relics, prayer to dead saints, prayer and practical worshipping of angels, the introduction of the rites and customs of Mithra/Baal/Sol Invictus, abandonment of Sabbath and the correct time of Passover in favour of Sunday and Easter, the priesthood/clericalism, sacramentalism, purgatory, absolution, transubstantiation, burning incense, immortal soulism, the construction of physical temples and physical altars, the ravenous accumulation of wealth, the spread of perversions among the clerics, monasticism, and a whole host of additional departures from the original apostolic faith. It is out of this milieu of apostasy that the man of sin would be revealed - the man of sin was already a part of this apostasy, but once secular Roman power was given over to the control of the apostasy, the man of sin could finally be on full display.

5. Since the apostasy developed over several centuries, and has continued even today, and since the man of sin arose within that apostasy, the man of sin continues even today, and will continue until the return of the Lord. This proves the man of sin is not a single, personal, individual, but rather a continuous succession of apostate eldership. It should also be noted that the man of sin is not limited to the chief bishop of the apostate Roman religious institution, for they have long since been removed as a church (see Revelation 2:5, and Revelation 3:16). Wherever men are set up in the church of God in place of the Holy Spirit, where THEY dictate what happens and what doctrines are to be believed rather than Christ through His Spirit and His Word, there you have the man of sin. The man of sin is not a single personal individual, but like the phrase "man of God" refers to a TYPE of person.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

The man of sin is an actual man.


This is his demise....



19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


A "system" was not cast into the lake, alive.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Thank you Esaias, awesome teaching.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I think this means that Imperial systems/kingdoms, and false religious systems that oppose Jesus and the Word of Jesus, along with those who follow/worship those false systems will be destroyed.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I wanted to comment some more about this particular aspect of the subject, namely, the man of sin arising within the church.

This is what Paul warned about:

For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
(Acts 20:16-38)

Paul called for the elders of the church, and reminded them of his behaviour, character, and ministry. He tells them he has demonstrated for them the template for a genuine, godly elder, and admonishes them to follow that pattern. That template is one where an elder teaches all the whole counsel of God, does not hold anything back from the assembly, does not covet anyone's material possessions, prefers to give than to receive, is directly involved in personally working and contributing to the relief of the poor members of the assembly (whether materially or spiritually "weak"), etc. He also warns them by prophecy that there shall arise "grievous wolves, not sparing the sheep" who would creep into the church. Also, that from among their own number, that is, from within the eldership of the church, false teachers and antichristian leaders would arise who would draw people away after themselves. This is clearly a prophecy of apostasy, spearheaded by an apostate eldership itself. Not that all future elders would be corrupted, but that there would arise a cadre of corrupt leadership that would draw many away from the truth. It is obviously his reminders to them of his own behaviour as an example they should follow stands in contrast to the type of corrupt leadership that would soon arise - unlike him, they would be greedy for gain, coveting people's goods and money, not concerned with strengthening the weak or supporting the poor (at least not out of their own labours), they would hide the counsel of God from the people, etc.

He also reminds them that he warned of these things for three years, day and night. It is safe to assume that this outlook on the future of the church was part and parcel of his apostolic preaching everywhere, which would explain why he tells the Thessalonians that they already knew these things because he had already told them.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

The apostle Peter likewise foretold of the apostasy:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(2 Peter 2:1-3)

John also spoke of these things:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
(1 John 2:18-20)

John, whose writings are among the latest of the New Testament, speaks of the apostasy as having already begun. He speaks of it as "antichrist", which is a Greek term that means both "opposer of Christ" as well as "replacement of Christ". The antichrist spirit is the spirit that seeks to replace Christ and His spirit in the church - the very thing Paul spoke of in his second epistle to the Thessalonians.

I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
(3 John 1:9-11)

Here, John describes a corrupted apostate elder in a local church, as one who "loves to have the pre-eminence". This is John's way of describing the man of sin who enthrones himself in the church in the place of God. Diotrephes is an example of the early burgeoning of the mystery of iniquity and the rise of the man of sin.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Jude 1:3-4)

Jude likewise warned about the growing apostasy, and said it was necessary for him to remind the readers to earnestly contend for the original apostolic faith. Why? Because people had crept in (just like Paul warned would happen) and were perverting the true faith. The fact they were perverting the faith implies they were in a teaching position or some kind of leadership position in the church, again, just like Paul and Peter and John warned about.

And of course, we must ask where did the apostles get this idea from? where did they get this rather foreboding view of the future of the church, that it would include apostasy which would continue until the end? Well, it looks like they got it straight from Jesus Himself:

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(Matthew 13:24-30)

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

:thumbsup

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess 2:2-3

Paul calls their attention to the day of Christ. What is the day of Christ? He had just showed them a few verses before this in chapter 1.

2 Thess 1:7-10

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So the day of Christ is when he comes to gather the Church and wreck judgment on the wicked.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Deceivers were teaching the day of Christ was at hand. In other words it was imminent. Paul describes several things that must happen before the day of Christ. First a falling away must occur. This will be more than just the normal backslidings of Churches. There will be a massive falling away among believers. Then the man of sin will be revealed.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul is obviously getting his teaching from Jesus. In the gospel of Mark Jesus is saying these same things and points us where to find who the man of sin is.

Mark 13:14

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So we will find the man of sin in the prophet Daniel. But where? And dont forget the phrase by Jesus "standing where it ought not".

Paul said he will exalt HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD and all that is worshipped.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

So in Daniels writings we find such a man. A warrior king who lives at the same time as the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead. He will do exactly what Paul says the man of sin will do.

In the same context I think we can find the temple of God Paul and Jesus and Daniel refer to.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be "standing where it ought not". Again in Daniel we find such a thing in the same context of the man of sin who exalts himself above every god.

Dan 11:41-45

41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Note verse 45. This blaspheming king sets up his palace/temple in the glorious holy mountain. This speaks of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:16

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain:

He will set up an abominable temple for HIMSELF. In doing this he is showing that HE.......IS GOD! The temple of God Paul refers to IS THIS PALACE in Jerusalem he builds for himself showing himself he is God.

Jesus said in Mark the abomination of desolation will be STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

In Jerusalem. Part 1

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I now want to address the issue of the restrainer a bit. A lot of theories have been put forward by various persons as to who or what this is. One of the more recently popular views is that the restrainer is the either church, or the Holy Spirit. I say "more recently popular views" because this view is wholly a product of dispensational ratpurism which did not exist prior to the 1830s.

That the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is easily debunked by simply thinking about it: How can the Holy Spirit be "taken out of the way"? He can't. You can't take God out of the way.

That the restrainer is the church, "taken out of the way" via a supposed rapture, is also easily debunked by the very teaching of Paul here in this chapter.

First of all, Paul stated the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together unto Him, occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed. If the church is the restrainer that is taken out of the way by rapture, then there is a palpable and obvious contradiction. The man of sin is revealed AFTER the rapture and the church is removed, according to dispensationalism, but according to Paul the church is resurrected and gathered to Jesus ("raptured") AFTER the man of sin is revealed and during his destruction! So obviously dispensational rapturism fails, and fails hard.

Secondly, the man of sin sits in the naos of God, a term Paul only uses for the church. If the church was removed or taken out of the way, then the man of sin could not sit in the naos of God, for it would be gone! Again, dispensationalis rapturism fails, and fails hard.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Concerning dispensational rapturism's false idea that "the man of sin will be a leader who will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem" (which apparently is a belief shared by post-trib futurists and preterists* see note at end), I would remark that such is not what Paul is teaching.

There is no teaching in Scripture of a rebuilt physical Temple, a replacement of the Jerusalem temple whose destruction was prophesied by Christ during His Olivet Prophecy (Matthew 24). As I have already shown, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John, as well as Matthew, taught about a coming apostasy based on the teachings of Christ Himself. Yet there is no mention anywhere by either Christ or any of the apostles about rebuilding the temple that Christ said would be torn down.

Also, a supposed "Antichrist Temple" built by Antichrist could hardly be called the "temple of God", anymore than the current St Peter's Basilica in Vatican City can be called a temple of God.

Thirdly, there are two words translated as "temple" - hieros, and naos. Paul NEVER uses the term naos to refer to the physical temple in Jerusalem. He ONLY uses that term to speak of the church. Allowing Paul to interpret himself, it becomes obvious that "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians ch 2 is the church, not some physical building in Jerusalem.

Each of these three reasons are sufficient by themselves to debunk any belief of the apostles in a future rebuilt temple occupied by Antichrist. Together, they not only shut the door on the idea, they lock it and throw away the key.

*Note: Many Preterists, as far as I know, believe like dispensationalists and post-trib futurists that the man of sin would occupy the physical temple. They see it as future to the apostle's writings, and fulfilled during the events of Jerusalem's siege and destruction in AD 70. I'll let them explain how, as honestly I haven't a clue, other than that's what I have been told by preterists. Not all preterists believe this, however, according to my understanding.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Excellent post

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

More on the apostasy:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
(2 Timothy 3:1-9)

Paul speaks of the general character of a certain class of people that were coming. It is supposed by many that these people are unsaved heathens, but notice what it says: "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". These are religious pretenders. They are said to be "reprobate concerning the faith", meaning they are rejected false converts. These people are "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" which parallels what Paul said about the apostasy in 2 Thessalonians, that they had pleasure in unrighteousness rather than receiving a love of the truth. He here also says they withstand the truth as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses.

Jannes and Jambres were the names of two of the Egyptian wise men ("magicians") during the Exodus account, according to Jewish folklore. Paul, being a Pharisee trained by rabbi Gemaliel, would have been familiar with Jewish folklore and tradition. The names of Jannes and Jambres are attested to in the Targum of Jonathan, first book of the Maccabees, the writings of Pliny, the Testament of Abraham, and some other early pre-Christian Jewish writings, as well as the writings of gentiles (like Pliny) who reported on the beliefs of the Jews. According to Jewish legends circulating at the time, Jannes and Jambres were Egyptian magicians who stood against Moses, using demonic arts to imitate some of the miracles which Moses did before Pharaoh. Eventually, they conceded defeat (see Ex. 8:19), and (according to the legends) became proselytes and accompanied the Israelites out of Egypt into the wilderness.

The Jewish legends continue the story, that in the wilderness they opposed Moses, were involved in inciting the people to worship the golden calf, among other things, and were eventually destroyed. The legends also refer to them as "sons of Balaam", possibly suggesting not so much they were biological sons but students of the well known prophet-for-hire, or that they followed in his footsteps as religious hirelings.

Paul refers to the legend as an illustration of the point he is making. He is not speaking of unbelievers who oppose the gospel, but converts who betray themselves as false converts who had by false pretenses gotten into the church. Much like the case of Simon the Samaritan, who ostensibly converted but was discovered to still have been in the bond of iniquity.

This ties in with what Paul was saying in 2 Thessalonians, about the man of sin being a Judas-elder in the church, and with Peter's prophetic warning about false teachers arising and leading people astray. Jannes and Jambres supposedly converted from their heathenism, but it turns out their conversions were spurious. For a time they troubled the church in the wilderness, opposing Moses (representing the Law of God), just as the soon coming false teachers would show up in the church, opposing the true faith once delivered to the saints.

So then these "Jannes and Jambres" types are people in the church, pretending to be converted, but introducing paganisms and trying to lead people away from the original apostolic faith and practice. And history shows Paul's words came to pass exactly as he said.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Now, let's look at the question as to WHY some of the brethren were concerned that the day of Christ was upon them (imminent).

Previously, Paul had written to them and said thus:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Now, some people today suppose that Paul's use of the word "we" indicates that he thought he and others then alive would be alive at the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints. This would imply the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints unto Him might be right around the corner, they suppose. Apparently, some in Thessalonika made the same mistake!

So Paul corrects them, and tells them not to be deceived on this matter, especially not to think that he Paul was teaching an imminent soon coming of the Lord. He lays out that certain things must take place first.

And this also shows that Paul was not saying he and some others would live to see the coming of the Lord in his and their lifetime. We is first person plural, and means "me plus others". If the speaker is excluded, then there is no "we", there is only "you" or "they". And there is absolutely no evidence that Paul lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem. The testimony of early Christian tradition is pretty much united in affirming Paul died as a martyr during Nero's reign. Now, if Paul indeed died before AD 70, then AD 70 was not the coming of the Lord he speaks of in either of his epistles. Either that, or Paul was deceived about "we" remaining to the Lord's coming. The fact is, Paul didn't make it to the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore (if the destruction of Jerusalem was the coming of the Lord he speaks of in these epistles) there was no "we who remain".

So no matter how it is sliced, no matter how one understands the coming of the Lord in the Thessalonian epistles, there was no "we" that made it to that event. Which proves that his use of the term "we" is a GENERAL term, meaning "those of us - the Christian church - who are alive and remain". He was not saying "we - I, Paul and some others now currently living - will remain to the coming of the Lord therefore it is not far off at all but will happen in our lifetime."

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Part 2

When Jesus said this:

Mark 13:14

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Jesus means for us to understand the meaning by the writing of Daniel. In Dans writings and the context of end time things that which is STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT seems to be the Palace/Temple the wicked king builds unto himself in the glorious land of Israel and the holy mountain of God even Jerusalem.

Should there be a Palace/Temple built in Jerusalem in honor of this blaspheming king who sets himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped?

Of course not. So this "temple of God" he builds to show himself that HE IS GOD.....is standing where it ought not.

Now let us observe the CONTEXT of these events in Daniel by reading the verses that immediately follow this man of sin placing his palace/temple in Jerusalem.

Dan 12:1-2

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is not the context of this evil king/man of sin EXACTLY the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead?

WHY YES IT IS!

So when Paul says this:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We can see as Jesus taught by turning to the prophet Daniel and establishing the end time context what he (Jesus) meant by STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

The idea that this temple is THE CHURCH is far from the context in which Daniel, Jesus, and Paul, are writing and teaching.

Part 2....continued

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Part 3

2 Thess 2:5

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminds them he had taught them these things before.

Verse 6

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

On the basis of what he just told them he says now they know what is with holding the revelation of Jesus Christ. Its key to understand verse 6 is referring to the revelation/coming of Jesus.....not the man of sin.

The whole issue up to that point was about the revelation of Jesus Christ. Remember chapter 1:7?

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul has now reminded them how he taught them what had to happen before the revelation/coming of Jesus would occur. It was that there must come a falling away first and the man of sin first be revealed.

THAT was and is what is witholding the second coming. Those two things. After they happen the revelation of Jesus Christ will be imminent.

So the reason people dont understand what is restraining or holding back the revelation of Jesus coming is because they erroneously believe verse 6 to be referring to the man of sin rather than Pauls intent, that it is the revelation of JESUS that is being restrained because those two things must first occur.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Part 4

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

10-12



10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul says if we love not the truth we will perish. We will receive a strong delusion. Let us love the truth and search it out as fine gold. It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that in this context "loving the truth" is a mere reference to Acts 2:8 as most Apostolics seem to believe.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple of God. Not in a temple dedicated to himself. There are only two possibilities for the "temple of God": either the physical temple in Jerusalem (which no longer exists), or the church. Paul always referred to the temple in Jerusalem as the "hieros", and never as the "naos". Paul always refers to the church as the "naos" and never as the "hieros". In our text, Paul says the man sits in the "naos of God". The only conclusion that makes sense is that the "naos of God" means the church, here as it does EVERYWHERE ELSE IN PAUL'S WRITINGS.

As for the abomination that maketh desolate:

Here is Matthew's record of the Lord's prophecy:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Matthew 24:15-21)

Here is Luke's record of the Lord's prophecy:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(Luke 21:20-23)

Matthew said "when you see the adomination that makes desolate then let them which are in Judea flee into the mountains" etc. Luke said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains." Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, it is clear the abomination that maketh desolate had to do with the Roman armies coming against Jerusalem.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Ummmm.

It is a guy(fella).:nod

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Agreed.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

additional thoughts on the rapture:

Wasn’t 2 Thessalonians written as a clarification of 1 Thessalonians?

if so, per 2 Thessalonians, all who have not obeyed the gospel at his coming will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9), (There will be no one left to go thru a tribulation)

Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot be a separate event from the second coming which is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I think that's about right. The pretrib rapture teaching is just so far gone it's not even in the game.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

The 1st resurrection is in 2 major parts.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

yes, thank you Sean

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:


All saints from the resurrected ones with Christ from the grave at Calvary until the catching away(all are firstfruits)...


Christ the firstfruits;



All tribulation saints that are slaughtered during the great tribulation(not part of the firstfruits)....


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Who is the "you" of 2 Thes?

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

"You who are troubled".

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

That is correct, and the "you who are troubled" are the same "you" as found in the following:

2Th 2:5.. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?..

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

And those are the same "you" as found in verses 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 of that same chapter. In fact, they are the exact same "you" found in every single verse where the second person pronoun occurs throughout the whole epistle.

Isn't that neat?

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Right! I've seen some actually think the "you" Paul had visited with, and was speaking to back then, is written to them them, and they weren't even there at the time. lol

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I wonder if you checked those verses I mentioned, to see what was addressed to "them back then"?

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Right, Paul would never dream in a million years that his letter would be read or adhered to by anyone else than only the exactly intended audience.:smack

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

So explain this please.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Does not this sound like the same thing Paul said to the Thessalonians about the man of sin?

Is it not in the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead which happens in the very next chapter?

And please read this. A few verses later and in the same context.

45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

A palace that belongs to him. The man who says HE IS ABOVE EVERY GOD.

This palace or temple belongs to the man of sin. He obviously will sit in it declaring himself God.

Again look at context. The verses that EXPRESSLY follow verse 45 which states the tabernacle of his palace will stand in the glorious holy mountain.

The next 3 verses say this:

Daniel 12:1-3

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Its all IN THE SAME CONTEXT.

The evil king/man of sin. His palace sitting where it ought not in Jerusalem. The great tribulation and resurrection of the dead. Its all there.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

I did.
Tis written to the Thess’s, and while some of its contents are for them in particular at that time, some is also applicable to ALL the brethren in Christ, throughout the “thus far 2000 yr NT”.


It seems the primary contention is, and has been, in regard to where all that line of distinction is, and can be, drawn.





Everyone thinks they have it figured out, and probably no one does…

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple (naos) of God. There is no way around that, brother. The man of sin is the "son of perdition", a title that is used elsewhere only of Judas, the fallen apostle. Showing the man of sin is a false elder in the church of God.

Until you understand the plain explanations of Paul, you will misunderstand the apocalyptic visions of Daniel.

You are jumping around in Daniel. Begin with ch 2, then progress through the book to add understanding, to build a picture of what was to take place.

THEN work through the gospels, UP TO the Olivet prophecy. Then tackle that. Then look at the rest of NT prophecy. A picture emerges, but you won't see it if you already have a picture painted for you by popular booksellers.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

LOL

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Oh really? Just for your info I have never heard of another human being who teaches about Daniel 11:45 being the temple Paul mentions in 2 Thess.

If you are aware of anyone that does please send me their phone number, address, or link. I'm sure there are some out there. Its just I dont read the "pop" books.

I read a gob of them until 1980. Since then I doubt if I have bought more than 10.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Im not going around it. The temple of God Paul refers to is exactly what Jesus refers to here.

First he mentions the falling away.

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 12:12-13

Then he mentions the abomination of desolation.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So to understand Jesus version of what happens IMMEDIATELY BEFORE HE COMES....he points us to the prophet Daniel and mentions something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT. Amen?

Daniel 11:45

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I asked YOU to explain this. Instead you reinterated what you already said and made no attempt to expain the simple fact that between Daniel 11:36 and Daniel 12:2.....eleven verses, we have theses 4 things mentioned.

Verse 36...A man who exalts HIMSELF as god and above every god.

Verse 45...He has a palace/temple placed STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT......in the glorious land specifically in Jerusalem.

12:1...A time of trouble such as never was to that time or never will be again. Easily compared to what Jesus said would occur just before he comes. See Mark 13:19

12:2...The resurrection of the dead.

Its all there. The end time scenario. Not from a "pop" book but by doing what Jesus pointed us to do. Searching the Prophet Daniel for something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

How do you explain this?

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Busy dealing with a 911 address change, will respond later.

Re: 2 Thess 2
 

Not sure if Paul thought it would be read and intended to be for those the letter not addressed to and directed towards, but it doesn't mean we can take liberties and think he really had us in mind when he wrote it specifically to those he addressed it to. If intended for others, he surely would have used different words instead of "you," he could have said "they' or "them," or "whosoever."