Do angels have free will?
 

Yes or no?

Prove it. Show your work. :)

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Yes, they rebelled against God.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

That doesn't prove they have free will, though.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

The scriptures below seem to show Angels making choices, and being judged for incorrect choices.


Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

1 Corinthians 6:3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Jude 1:6 states that the angels who had sinned were judged. If they had no freewill then their judgement is based on what? They would've only been like a Manchurian Candidate, just waiting for the operator to flip the buzz switch.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

:thumbsup :yourock

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Are "the angels which sinned" non-human heavenly beings?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Peter and Jude calls them "angels". Angels are spirits. I don't see why they would be anything other than fallen angels.

My question is... both Peter and Jude don't go into any explanation, therefore, it appears that Peter and Jude write of these angels as though their readers would have understood what they meant. Since the Scripture states that they "sinned", I'm curious... What was that sin?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

If the angels of the churches in revelation were men, then sometimes angels can be men?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Those were real men.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Ah, some more Shaolin walking across rice paper. :thumbsup

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

:thumbsup

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Psalms103:20
Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word.

I would assume obedience derives from submission, as disobedience derives from rebellion. You require freewill to obey or rebel.

You're welcome! Please send your love gift of $1000.00 to me a.s.a.p.

Please PM me for address! :nod :D

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

We will send it in bitcoin.

Go to other thread to find out details.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Hahaha

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Do dogs have free will?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Have you ever owned a dog?

Did you ever call the dog by name and it didn't come to you?

Yes? That's freewill.

The dog can either submit to your command by responding to your call, or the dog tell you to "go pound sand" and ignore your call.

Freewill allows the dog either one of two choices. :dogpat

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Please clarify. Free will of free agency?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Who are you asking?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Primarily, Esaias. Secondarily, anyone that cares to answer.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Dogs tell their owners?

Whatever, another thread circles the drain.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

I see only two scenarios:

(1) Angels were created with a free will;
(2) Angels were created with no free will:
(a) some were created to lose "...their first estate...";
(b) some were created to be faithful...
(Option (b) would follow someone's theory on predestination)

I am persuaded that angels (and men) were created with a free will.

Brother Villa

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Yes, telling defines as communicating through vocalization or expression.

Humans communicate with dogs via vocalization, hand signals, body posture, and touch. Dogs also communicate via vocalization (e.g. bark, growl, etc.) or through expression (body movement, limb movement, etc.). :dogpat :nod

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

I am not actually certain. I was hoping folks would "show their work" which I supposed would include defining "free will". At the moment my idea of free will is as follows:

Will is that capacity of rational creatures to originate volitions. A free will would be a capacity to originate volitions that are not caused by a law of necessity outside the will itself.

I'm sure there is a tautology in there somewhere, though...

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Does free will involve being able to choose to obey, or not?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Free will would (with the working definition-in-progress I posted earlier) involve being able to choose to obey or disobey without necessity.

Necessity being defined as a force that is naturally or physically impossible to resist. By naturally or physically I mean "according to nature or essence". Thus for example, the law of gravity is a law of necessity, it is not something that objects can disobey. Another example is in the arena of the mind, there is a law of necessity that governs sensation - sensations are perceptions, and occur by a law of necessity whenever the stimulus is present. One cannot "choose not to perceive" a sensation, either the sensation is, in which case it is perceived, or it is not, in which case it is not perceived. (A blind person does not perceive sight because there is no mental stimulus in the mind corresponding to an input of light. There is no "choice" involved, perceptions operate according to a law of necessity.

So then the will, being the faculty or ability of a being to make volitions ("choices"), would be free IF there is nothing that necessitates any particular choice by a law of necessity. If on the other hand, something produces certain choices by a law of necessity, then the will is not free.

Thus a person may choose to obey or disobey God, but what brought about that choice? Was it the free agency of the individual? Or did something "cause" that particular choice to be made, such that it could not have been otherwise?

The question of free will brings up the issue of ability vs inability, as well as the issue of accountability and the nature of moral valuation ("good vs evil", "right vs wrong", "holy vs unholy", "righteous vs unrighteous", guilt vs innocence, etc). All of them are interrelated and seem to depend on one another.

Finally, the question of humans having free will or not does not necessarily seem to affect the question of angels or of animals having free will or not. for example, we assume humans have free will, thus are accountable for their actions, thus face judgment. Angels likewise are to be judged. So we conclude angels must have free will.

But angels have no offer of redemption, no offer of pardon or mercy. Why not? Our offer of pardon is conditioned upon our repentance (among other things). Repentance implies the probability of free will. Angels have no offer of pardon, implying repentance is impossible for them... which strongly suggests they do not have free will (otherwise couldn't some of them repent? And how does a just God reject the repentance of a fallen angel? Upon what basis?)

My head hurts.

lol

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Humans have free will on the basis of not having obtained immortality (1 Cor 15), not having eaten from the tree of life and sealed our destiny yet (Genesis 3). We have been made a little lower than the angels. (Ps 8:2-7)

Angels, having been created immortal, have no recourse for sin.
(Rev 12:7-12) (Rev 20:15)

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Reply PRIMARILY to the sentence in bold

You are quite correct there, Beloved. Angels were created before redemption
was established, thus they are ineligible for redemption. Similarly, there is no
pardon or mercy for angels because in eternity there was no law against sin or
iniquity: and where there is no law, sin cannot be imputed. Therefore punishment
for iniquity or sin could not be exacted. There was only one Law in eternity, it
is the Law of Holiness; which is: Nothing contrary to Holiness can stand in its
presence. It is under that Law that the angels were cast out from eternity.
(That was NOT their punishment: it was to keep intact the Law of Holiness)

As we look at the Laws of Creation, we see that the first thing God established
was light; that is, "...the Light that shineth every MAN that cometh into the world."
So we can see that redemption was established BEFORE man was created, because
God knew man would sin and we would be in need of redemption.
Understand this: man is the crown of God's creation!

Brother Villa

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Very interesting post. It's a little above my head but I'm trying to understand it.

Is this kind of what you are talking about?...

I believe in free will, meaning that we all make choices and are responsible for those choices. However, the choices we make are often influenced by (and even sometimes limited by) our nature. For example, a man can freely will or desire to breathe under water. But given human nature, a human being will drown if they try.

And so while free will is something we all possess, our free will cannot take us beyond our nature. Man, being fallen and sinful in nature is therefore incapable of choosing God.

By nature, a man will freely choose among the many options that tend to focus on wealth, power, prestige, comfort, and pleasure, but not God. God has to make the first move in salvation. Hence the doctrine of Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Grace is an enabling grace that comes through the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Prevenient Grace is composed of two elements:

Inner Calling
Outer Calling

The Inner Calling is when the Holy Spirit first begins to draw the spirit of a person inwardly. The individual is awakened to the reality that they need something more. Often, they don't consciously know what it is that they are missing. They begin to struggle with being content in their lives. This can stimulate an interest in religion and spiritual things and the beginning of one's spiritual journey to find what is missing. If resisted, it can result in choices that try to satisfy this sense of need with more sinful or worldly pursuits. However, none of these things will bring contentment or happiness.

The Outer Calling is the preached Gospel. When both the Inner and Outer Calling of God are in operation, the inner drawing of the Holy Spirit bears witness to the preached Word of God and the sinner feels compelled to be saved and becomes fully aware of their need for salvation.

Upon choosing to obey the Gospel and receiving the Holy Spirit, one's spirit (or inner man) experiences Regeneration. Regeneration imparts a new nature to the spirit of the individual. Now one begins to experience an inner desire to obey God and live holy.

But the mind (element of the soul) might not know how. This is where studying the Scriptures comes into play. Through studying the Scriptures, one's own mind is renewed and the mind of Christ is encountered.

And so one's spirit is now regenerated and their mind is experiencing renewal. But the body remains in its natural state. And so carnal impulses to accommodate the desires and cravings of the body (the flesh) continue to arise. These impulses can be either resisted or surrendered to. The battlefield is the mind. If one has the mind of Christ, they will seek to do that which would emulate Christ. The mind of Christ agrees with the new nature of the abiding Holy Spirit and so victory over temptation is attained and salvation affirmed. But if one neglects the Scriptures and becomes carnally minded, the carnal mind agrees with the flesh and sin, and ultimately death, is the result. And so the Christian lives in a state of tension between the new abiding nature of the Holy Spirit and the natural carnal nature of the flesh.

And so we see that while the will is free, it is always subject to the influence and limits of nature.

Is this kind of what you're talking about?

P.S.
I don't remember reading how the same or a similar tension exists within the being of any angel.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Both humans and angels can choose to obey or disobey.

It seems there is a hierarchy of angels, so that if the head angel rebels all those under his command automatically follow, i.e., Satan and his angels.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

That would mean that the angels under Lucifer had no free will!
What does that say about the rest of the angels?
Either they ALL have free wills, or NONE have free wills.

Brother Villa

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

you are probably right.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Will humans lose their free will at the resurrection?

And what about God? Does He have free will?

Did I even define free will correctly? I'd like to know if my definition is accurate or not.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

The fact that Lucifer could rebel indicated he had freewill.

Also, Satan's angels could be those angelic beings who got fed up and decided to follow Satan. Following Satan doesn't necessarily mean you're under his command. It simply means I choose to indulge in unrighteousness, hence, following in Satan's footsteps (or hoofsteps). :D

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

I will try to work on this this weekend.

I have a preliminary thoughts:

God's freewill: I think God is bound by his word therefore his will can not violate his word and in that sense it is not free.

I think that once all enemies are put under Jesus feet and he has delivered up the kingdom, and Satan and death, and all evil are cast in the lake of fire, that those who inherit eternal life will be so one with the Lord that we will by nature do His will.

Free will is the ability to choose, as in choose ye this day who you will serve.

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Iniquity: knowing what is right (truth), and not abiding in it.
The angels (not all) first committed iniquity, which is rebellion against the
Truth. They knew truth because they were created perfect (sinless). They
could not be punished because there was no law against iniquity in Eternity.

Sin: not knowing what is right (truth): and trying to do what is right
the wrong way.


ALL of the commandments, statutes, ordinances, etc., of God were directed
to man, to teach him the Way and eventually lead him to salvation through
the sacrifice of “…the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.”
We must also understand that all of those same commandments, statutes, and
ordinances, were also intended to bring all the rebellious angels to justice, to
receive their righteous punishment! If we study the “freeman” and the “slave”
in the Law, we find that the freeman is responsible for the actions of his slave(s)
(bond slave(s). If a slave killed another man’s slave, he could be punished
by the dead slave’s owner. But if the slave killed the SON of a freeman, then
the slave’s OWNER must pay “…an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.”

Satan was without sin and could not be judged or condemned although he had
committed iniquity in Eternity (where there was no laws). But when satan’s
slaves (servants) murdered a free (innocent) man (Jesus), they then condemned
themselves and their master! So what was the sin of the fallen angels? By
inciting sinful men (bound in sin) to kill the Lord Jesus, they and their lord
(satan) were found guilty of murder! Can you understand? “And when he (the
Holy Spirit) is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and
of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because
I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; of judgment, because the prince
of this world is judged.”

Brother Villa

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

I believe that the angels who rescued Lot and his family indicate that angels have the liberty to act as free agents under the agency of God.

Genesis 19:17-23,

Lot negotiated with the angel, by first refusing the instructions he was given. He explains why, and the angel concedes to him, and finds his hands are tied regarding fulfilling God's command to destroy the city, until Lot et al, are safely in Zoar.

This shows:

1.) Angels have the ability to think independently from the mind of God
2.) That they have the ability to compromise and adapt to circumstances on the ground
3.) That they sometimes are forced into delaying or partially abandoning God's commands, for the sake of the greater good
4.) That angels can still nevertheless carry out the spirit, if not the letter, of God's commands, if the end result satisfies the impetus of God when issuing the command

A second story from Daniel sheds light, too, I believe. I will merely summarize here:

An angel was dispatched to Daniel, but was delayed because he could not overcome the Prince of Persia. The Prince of Israel, Michael, had to come and bring aid, so the angel could break through and get to Daniel.

If it was God's will that the angel be sent to Daniel at the very beginning, as the angel claimed, then why didn't God empower the angel to fulfill the command, such that an opposing force in the heavenly realm could withstand the angel and cause the will of God to be delayed in occuring?

See Daniel 10:11-13,

God, being all-powerful, nevertheless, permitted (if that's the right word, here?) one of his agents to be insufficiently empowered to fulfill His will, such that a second angel had to be dispatched in order to deliver the first from his battle with the Prince of Persia, whatever that is.

This shows that even though the angel fully intended to fulfill God's will, he could not, until help arrived. If angels were not free agents to act independently, there would never be a time when an angel could fail to fulfill God's every command to the final decimal, because in such a case, the only free will that existed, was God's, and why would God intentionally set his agent to fail, so that His divine plans could be so easily thwarted?

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

VERY GOOD!

Answering in reverse order:
(e) God NEVER did intend His angels to fail: and they don't. Now, when God created
the angelic host, it was with a free will AND a portion of delegated authority to them:
some with more authority, and some with less. We are able to see that, when He said,
"Let US make man...". This also testifies that there is an angelic heirarchy in Eternity.

(d) "...the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." God's delegated authority
cannot be rescinded except by a greater authority or commandment than the previous
authority. The angel (probably Gabriel) and the prince of Persia's kingdom had equal
power and authority and were stalemated: so Michael was sent to help God's angel.

(c) See previous answer: #c.

(b) Gabriel is the angel that ministers to Israel (Old Testament); Michael, ministers
to the Church (New Testament).

(a) (I REALLY LIKE YOUR REASONING.)
Angels only have as much power and authority as God has delegated to them: they
cannot act above or beyond their scope of delegated authority.

"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels (than El-ohim)."

Brother Villa

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

The Genesis account strikes me as a good example in favor of angelic free will. The Daniel account, not so much. A lack of free will doesn't mean a lack of will.

Of course, the same might be said concerning the Genesis account. :)

Re: Do angels have free will?
 

Side question: is it possible the Prince of Persia is an angelic being, in the kingdom of God, who saw things differently than Gabriel, thus requiring an intervention from Michael?

Such things happen among Christians, is it not possible among angels as well?