Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Colossians 1:20)

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
(Hebrews 9:23-24)

Christ's work of reconciliation and purification is not limited to us, or to earthly things and people, but also involved a purifying of things in heaven, and/or heaven itself.

So, does anyone have any ideas about what that involves?

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

.....now to appear in the presence of God for us.


I think both passages are generally speaking about Christ interceding in heaven to God for us, instead of temporary sacrifices made for us.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

....The types/patterns of the sacrifices are finished/purified.




It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these....

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Sean,

Your missing the point.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified


It is speaking of patterns, not things.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Define heaven in this context...

Heaven is just the spiritual realm.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Well, in terms of reconciliation, we know that humanity was at enmity with God, as God was not reconciled to us until Christ died, so perhaps the "things" in heaven that needed to be reconciled at least included, if not limited to, God Himself.

As far as the patterns of things being purified, I do not know. In Revelation I believe we read that there is an ark there, perhaps the ark of the testimony, at least it's pattern, which received the blood of Christ when he entered into the heavenlies, so maybe something to do with that. That's just a guess, though.

I guess it depends on what the patterns were and what the things were, as well. Solve for that, and the rest probably comes naturally.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

I would think that if God was not reconciled to us He wouldn't have provided Christ as the offering for sin? I do not know of any verse saying that the cross reconciled God to us?

In any event, it speaks of things in heaven being "reconciled to God".

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

I did not quote any verses from the Apocalypse, I quoted from Paul's writings. Heaven is where Jesus went, it's where God "is". And it includes things (and beings?) that were reconciled to God and purified. So I'm trying to figure out what those things are.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

I would offer just the opposite, saying that because God was not reconciled to us, He provided Christ as the offering for sin, so He could become reconciled.

We have the ministry of reconciliation, right? Or at least Paul did. It's part of the royal priesthood, I think, that we, as ministers, help people find reconciliation with God.

Consider Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:18-20, Ephesians 2:16,

I read it differently:

Colossians 1:12-22,

These three verses show it's the Father at work, making redemption possible through the blood of His Son.

A most famous passage speaking to the Majesty and Wonder of our Lord Jesus.

Back to the Father...

I read verse 20 like this:

And, [the Father, from verse 19] having made peace through the blood of his cross [that is, through the blood of His Son's cross], by him [that is, by Jesus] to reconcile all things unto himself [this "himself" is a referent to the Father]; by him [a referent to Jesus], I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

So, because of what Jesus accomplished at Calvary, things both in the earth and in heaven, can be reconciled to God the Father. The cross is the nexus and locus of total, divine reconciliation. It makes all things possible.

That is, the Father has reconciled these former alienated enemies in Colossae, through His Son and His Son's cross, meaning His death.

The Father has reconciled these believers in the body of Christ's flesh that was crucified, so that the Father may present these believers as holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His, that is, the Father's sight.

In this way, if I am reading and exegeting the passage properly (think so, hope so!), it would appear that Jesus, while on earth, through His death on the cross, was able to provide His Father the means of finding reconciliation with humanity. This occurred, I believe, because 1.) Christ's death wrought atonement for sins, meaning His blood covers, and so, takes away, the sins of the world, and 2.) Christ's death propitiated the Father, or brought about in the Father a desire to forgive and not punish, so that, all who were enemies and aliens to God, could find their way back to Him, that is, the Father "who art in heaven" hallowed be His name.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Two Corinthians 5:19

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

And my question is what are those things "in heaven" that are being reconciled back to God?

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

:thumbsup

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

powers. principalities. really. no clue.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

:highfive Ephesians 6:12

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

what is that for?

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

ohhh

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

:heeheehee :thumbsup

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

I'll be back later with more but I'm thinking this has to do with, or is somehow connected to, the high priest making atonement for the altars, sanctuary, ark, etc. I always wondered why those things needed an atonement. They weren't sinful, they were holy!

But! Apparently they "carried the sins of the people" and needed purging. And they are patterns or models of certain "heavenly things" or realities.

It appears the Cross has literally cosmic and universal significance. (Universal as in impacting the entire created universe, earth AND heaven.)

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

The earthly Tabernacle was duplicated after the pattern of the Eternal Tabernacle:
which had to have been established “…before the foundation of the world.” That is,
on the 1st day of creation when God said, “…Let there be light.”

The earthly tabernacle, known as the tabernacle in the wilderness, needed to be
purified [temporarily] by blood: it was by the blood of the purest sacrifice available:
without blemish. This would satisfy the atonement of sin for a year.

To eternally establish the atonement for sin, the Eternal Tabernacle also has
to be consecrated by blood: “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by
his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal
redemption for us.” So you see that OUR redemption was not actually fulfilled

at the cross, but the sacrifice had to be accepted at the Supreme Court of
Eternity! The proof that the sacrifice was acceptable is the resurrection of
the Lord Jesus: the proof that the blood was accepted, is that Jesus descended
and abode with the disciple, and that the Holy Spirit was imparted (and being
imparted still) to those who believe and obey the gospel that saves.

Reconciliation of Eternity and earth means Jesus has brought complete harmony
and conformity of both to the Father.

Brother Villa

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

:)

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Yes, that's where I'm going with this, it seems. Not so much that there are heavenly rebels who need to be reconciled to God, but that there is a judicial requirement of sorts that must be met.

The sanctuary had to be purged by blood in order to accommodate the sin offerings. Heaven required a preparation as well, in order to accommodate our admittance to the heavenly places.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Now, the things in heaven that are being reconciled to God are not angelic beings, as far as I can see. If you believe the Jewish-catholic myth of "fallen angels" running loose thwarting God's people etc, living in rebellion against God, then you probably also believe there is no redemption available to those fallen angels. "Lucifer" and his "satanic hosts' aren't going to be reconciled to God (unless you are a universalist). So, the things in heaven to be reconciled to God would not be any fallen angels.

It is also would not apply to departed saints, because saints are people who have been reconciled to God, thus saints do not need to be reconciled to God. they already have been. And saints who have departed and "gone to heaven" are already in heaven, which they would not be able to do if they weren't already reconciled to God. (All this is assuming one believes in the "dead saints go to heaven before resurrection day" theory.)

It would also not apply to old testament saints because the theory that the old testament saints went to heaven is that they were taken to heaven by Jesus either during His time in the grave or during His ascension, which were past events to Paul when he wrote Colossians. But Paul wrote about reconciliation as if it were ongoing, not a completely past event. That is to say, God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself BUT each of us must be personally reconciled to God in our own times and places (hence, the work or ministry of reconciliation, "be ye reconciled to God"). This would imply that the things in heaven to be reconciled must likewise be reconciled individually in their own time and place to God, even though the provision for reconciliation has already been made through the cross.

Also, the old testament saints are not in heaven anyway, for on the day of Pentecost Peter explicitly affirmed "David is not ascended into the heavens", which would not be true if the old testament saints were gone to heaven at the ascension of Christ. And, again, they would not be in heaven if they had not been already reconciled to God (that's why they are "saints" to begin with).

The things in the heaven to be reconciled would also not be a reference to the living on earth, as if "things in heaven" was a reference to the "spiritual component of man", because men are on earth and are included in the category of things on earth to be reconciled to God.

So what then are the things in heaven that need to be reconciled to God?

A clue possibly lies in the immediate context:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(Colossians 1:15-16)

Paul says Christ is the firstborn of every creature (created thing) because by him was everything created, whether in heaven or in earth. the fact God created all things by Christ places Christ in the position of "firstborn" and therefore the prime heir of all those things. He is the Princeps of all things, both in earth and in heaven.

Paul then apparently defines those things in earth and in heaven as "visible and invisible". It may be assumed that "visible" refers to the things on earth, and "invisible" refers to the things in heaven, just as he said Christ is the image of the invisible God. That is, Christ, the man, the One who was on earth, was (and is) the visible image of the One in heaven (God). So that visibility pertains to things in earth, and invisibility pertains to things in heaven.

He further defines these visible and invisible things as "whether (they are) thrones, or dominions, principalities, or powers". The phrase principalities and powers is a reference to government. In fact, all four terms are references to government. And here is where it gets interesting.

Many think that "powers and principalities" refers to fallen angelic or demonic powers and forces in a supposed satanic kingdom exercising rule and influence over human society. As if there was an invisible kingdom of satan superimposed over the map of the world. "Territorial spirits" in this satanic hierarchy assigned to certain areas of the evil invisible empire exercise influence and control over the corresponding earthly geographical areas. Thus, the kingdom of satan has a counterpart to "New York" (probably centered in Crown Heights, to be honest) that influences and controls the people living in New York, including local government as well as the locals themselves, promoting sin and immorality, etc. (Assuming the NYC territorial demons are actually hovering around Crown Heights might actually make sense, now that I think about it...lol)

But, honestly this scheme does not make much sense, either rationally or Biblically. If there is a satanic kingdom in heaven, God has a major problem (His house is divided, for one thing). The contrast is between earth and heaven, not one layer of heaven vs another layer. Thus "heaven" in the context encompasses ALL of "heaven", not just the top floors. Secondly as previously pointed out the satanic or demonic world is not scheduled for reconciliation, but destruction. So it would make no sense to suppose the powers and principalities are Satan's invisible empire that has been given reconciliation through the cross.

Biblically, "powers and principalities" refers to human governments:

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
(Titus 3:1)

If powers and principalities refers to invisible demonic strongholds and fallen angels, Paul was instructing Titus to preach that Christians should be in subjection to and to obey these demonic forces, which makes no sense at all. Rather, Paul was instructing Titus to remind the brethren to obey the local government so as not to be guilty of seditious treason and criminality. This subjection to government is not of course exhaustive, for "we must obey God rather than men", but the principle is clear - Christians are no anarchist rebels.

Now even though human government may be considered by many as something "earthly", is it really? Is government actually visible? You cannot see any actual government, because government and authority are abstract concepts. They are, to be technical, "invisible". This would make them pertain to "heaven" rather to "earth" (physical, visible things). We can see America on the map, but that is just a picture representation. When you cross a national border, or a border from one state to another, you see no actual border, you just see a sign somebody put up to denote the change in jurisdiction. The sign is necessary because the "state" or "country" (national jurisdiction) is invisible, it is an abstract concept not a physical reality in itself.

And this is why prophetic language, for example, often speaks of momentous changes in authority or government as disturbances in the heaven (stars falling down, sun going black, etc). Heaven is Biblically considered the sphere or arena of government and authority. So a disturbance in government is considered a disturbance in heaven.

Christ is said to have been the one by whom all these things were made. Paul elsewhere says the "powers that be are ordained of God" and Daniel ch 2 confirms that God rules over human governments. Therefore, the powers and principalities, thrones and dominions (ie government) was indeed created, made, or ordained (established and set up) by God through Christ. In fact, Christ, as "firstborn" or Princeps is the archetypal government (He is the archetypal "King" or Ruler). He represents in Himself the original Divine Idea of government authority and rule. So the invisible powers and principalities of heaven (that is to say, all government itself, per se) were not only made by God through Christ, but are subject to being reconciled through the cross to God.

Government has often been, and in many ways still is, in rebellion against God. Although it is not an absolute rebellion, for even Pilate could have no authority unless it were given to him from above, nevertheless the powers and principalities are often held by rebellious sinful men. The men of course must be reconciled to God, but the very authorities or government itself must also be reconciled to God, and brought into a position of whole hearted subjection to God. Currently, even those powers and principalities that are controlled by sinners in rebellion against God are not in themselves rebellious, but their use has been perverted by sinful men.

Consider the marital relationship: Carnal relations between a man and woman is not in itself rebellious or contrary to the will of God, but the marriage institution is often perverted or abused, or abandoned altogether, by sinners. This means that marriage, as an institution itself, needs to be "redeemed" or "reconciled to God", in the sense that the marriage institution needs to be restored to its proper, Biblical role and position. And how is this accomplished? By men and women respecting its proper role and authority. In other words, as men and women are reconciled to God, they are brought into a harmonious relationship to the will of God. They are no longer enemies, or acting contrary to the will of God. When this happens, marriage itself as an institution - abstract though it may be - is "reconciled" to God or restored to its proper use and position.

Even further, we may say that through and because of the cross, marriage itself, per se, has been reconciled to God. And what remains is for mankind to recognise and submit to that reconciliation.

So too it would apply to government. the reconciliation of government to God needs to be recognised by mankind. Which is to say mankind must learn that authority, government, the "powers and principalities", belong to God and are designed to serve Him. The very concept of government has been reconciled to God (brought into conformity to His will), and now it remains for the persons occupying those positions to act accordingly.

And thus, the reconciliation of things in earth and in heaven through the cross go hand in hand together. And it is the mission of the church to proclaim this universal reconciliation not only to men, but to the powers and principalities:

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
(Ephesians 3:8-12)

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

There are no "heavenly rebels" that can be reconciled to God.

All judicial requirements have been met, and there is no more that God must, or can do.
The rest is up to "...whosoever believes..."; in other words, that we present our bodies
"...a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." If we
believe His promises, we will also be able to obey.

Brother Villa

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Upon consideration, it would seem that the powers and principalities include the "heavenly places" in which we are seated with Christ. They had to be reconciled to God, meaning that through the cross the heavenly places are now designed to be occupied by Christ, and through Him by us.

God allowed government to continue in spite of man's sin, thus it may be said the heavenly places "bore the iniquity" of the people. But through the cross the heavenly places (powers and principalities) have been purged and reconciled to God, they have been judicially cleansed of the iniquity they "bore", and are now fit to receive the saints as the ones to occupy those heavenly places. Or, at least are in the process of being made fit to not only be occupied by but exercised by the saints. "Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?" (1 Cor 6:2)

I am still considering the question of whether the heavenly reconciliation has been completed or is in process. In one sense, it must have been completed, otherwise how could we sit in heavenly places now? On the other hand, we sit in heavenly places now "in Christ", meaning we are only in those heavenly places because we are in Christ, and He is in the heavenly places, that is, He is in the position of highest heavenly authority, which would place us over and above the powers and principalities.

Furthermore, this seems to be one of those "both now and not yet" things, where in one sense it is a present reality but in another sense it is to have a future fulfillment or completion. After all, the powers and principalities do not at present appear to be in total submission to God. Yet God calls those things which be not as though they were, and by His creative rhema what He has spoken eventually comes to be reality.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

What, to you, are the "heavenly places"?

Brother Villa

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

so we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, but we are still purifying ourselves

1 John3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Verses on Heavenly places
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17-21
Ephesians 2:4-7
Ephesians 3:10-12
Ephesians 6:10-12

Ephesians 6:10-12
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we are wrestling with spiritual wickedness in high/heavenly places.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

The place of spiritual authority and rule. Christ is at the right hand of God, meaning He is the one exercising the authority of God as God's Regent. And we, in Christ, are "seated with him" in that position of authority. At least in a corporate sense. Meaning the church is acting as Christ's representative on earth.

There is, of course, a yet to be future (and conditional) fulfillment or completion of this:

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
(Revelation 2:26-28)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
(Revelation 3:21)

There is a condition attached, namely that of overcoming, for the individual believer.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Yes, the church is engaged in a spiritual warfare with wickedness that is occupying the heavenly places of authority. The apostolic church constantly had to contend with this, but it wasn't "territorial demon spirits ruling over geographical areas", it was Roman and Jewish political and religious authority structures that were controlled by wicked men. Thus, Paul said "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood", meaning it is not a conflict between the church and individual physical person in a physical wrestling match, but against WICKEDNESS (wickedness itself, a spirit) that controlled those wicked magistrates, subverting the proper role of authority.

Those powers and principalities, being subverted by wicked men under the control of the spirit of rebellion, were in opposition to the Gospel and to Christ's authority. The powers and principalities having been reconciled to God (as opposed to simply being destroyed outright) belong to Christ, and the wicked men who use those positions to unlawfully war against Christ and His church need to be reconciled to God as well. Or else vacate the office.

And if Christ's people are doing their part, that is exactly what should happen. Of course, there cannot be a vacuum, so for the wicked to be removed from the dominion requires the godly to be prepared and capable to occupy their place. Otherwise, God continues to use the wicked to chastise His erring children, as well as the rest of sinners.

I think you have hit on a truth, that reconciliation and purging (purification) are two related but distinct things. If we have been reconciled to God we will seek to be cleansed and purged of whatever is not in keeping with His will.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. The Gospel is the Good News. But Good News about what? What kind of Good News? It is the Gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD. What is the Kingdom of God? It includes many things, and many layers, but essentially it is the DOMINION and RULE OF GOD.

In other words, the Gospel is all about government. It's about who rules? If the Gospel has come to your heart, that means the Good News of God's Dominion has come to your heart. If the gospel bears fruit in you it means that you will submit to the Dominion of God.

So too the Gospel is to be preached not only to every creature, but to the powers and principalities as well:

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
(Ephesians 3:8-12)

The church is to make the manifold will of God known to the powers and principalities in heavenly places.

This is the Message that Christ REIGNS, it is the very source and heart of the Gospel. It is the basis of the Great Commission, for the Lord said "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH IS GIVEN UNTO ME. GO THEREFORE AND TEACH ALL NATIONS...

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

I want to tie this into the conversation, but I'm having trouble with it, but there were people who crept in among us who despise dominion.

Jude
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

It is likely that if one were to be willing to slander and impugn God's heavenly government, such a person is probably likely to have a dim view of government in general. At least, not a genuinely theocratic and Biblical view, anyways.

Also, if God can't maintain order in His heavenly government of angels, how can it be expected for him to exercise dominion over all the earth? Such a way of thinking ultimately seems to deny even the Lord Jesus Christ, the One with ALL THE POWER, does it not?

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

His NAME is Jesus!

Granted: all POWER proceeds from God.
It is in God, by God, and in the hand of God. It has been extended to the
"...only begotten Son...", and the {TRUE} church is sitting with the Son of
God as a PROMISE. That promise gives the church the authority over every
level of dominion: but we must understand that that level has NOT YET reached
into Eternity "...till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that
shall be destroyed is death." Therefore we (the true church) have SPIRITUAL
dominion and authority in THIS real realm...until death is destroyed.

(For expediency sake, I will FOREGO the overcoming aspect)

Brother villa

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

You know, I just had a thought. If these people despised dominion per se, it would show up in various ways, including their doctrine concerning various aspects of God's dominion over all things. And the reason is because they want to be lord of their own life. There are, sadly, people in the church who really don't intend to submit to God's Lordship. And this self-centered view of authority will manifest itself sooner or later in their doctrine and belief, some how, some way.

I think these people Jude spoke of are called "filthy dreamers" because their imagination is polluted with a self-centered autonomous self directed outlook on things. As a result, they will adopt doctrines that should be rejected, because those doctrines are essentially slanders against holiness and God's government in some way or another. But because their minds are polluted with a sense of personal autonomy ("I direct my life") they don't have a keen sense of God's dominion. They don't inspect doctrines that come their way to see if there is some subtle slander against God contained therein. They accept doctrines that have a veneer of being Biblical, but wouldn't pass inspection if one to really "prove all things" or "test the spirits". And why? Because they "sound good to me". They literally tickle their fancy. If the doctrine appeals to THEM it's good to go. No concern for if the doctrine truly lines up with the Word.

They are not really willing to subject their beliefs to the control of the Word, and thus to God. THEY retain control over what they believe. Why? they despise dominion - God's dominion. It can be very subtle. They can be very sincere. But the Word exposes the actual workings of the heart. Railing against holy angels by accusing them of heinous sins, by teaching for doctrine the wild speculations of messed up minds that accuse and slander God's ministering spirits, is a sign such persons have no solid and biblical concept of Divine government. And thus they seem to be missing a huge piece of the puzzle as to the Kingdom of God. Which in turn means they are missing something in their understanding of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And the problem is NOT just a matter of lack of information, or bad teaching from yesteryear. The problem according to the Word is they have gone in the ways of Cain, Balaam, and Korah. Their heart is not right.

And if folks aren't careful, they will follow such teachers, and be defiled along with them.

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

The more I ponder this the more I am amazed at the insight you actually have here.

We are seated in heavenly places in Christ. That means the local assembly is a "heavenly place" in a sense. So if people have crept in to the local assembly who despise dominion and are gonna be doing THEIR thing, instead of submitting to the Lordship of the Holy Ghost, there's a problem.

They are bringing a defilement into the heavenly place where God is enthroned.

In Revelation 2 and 3 Jesus rebukes several of His assemblies because they have allowed "certain" people to get into positions of influence that usurp the Lordship of Christ away from His people:

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(Revelation 2:14-16)

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
(Revelation 2:20-23)

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(Revelation 3:15-19)

It is really bad juju to allow those who despise dominion - God's dominion and rule and authority - to run loose in the church. The church has a responsibility to clean up it's act through the Holy Ghost:

Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
(Hebrews 12:12-16)

The Jezebels, Balaams, Nicolaitanes, and Esaus are those who despise dominion. They refuse to submit to God's authority. they despise their birthright and inheritance. Esau was the first born but he had no respect for the authority he was under and the authority which he was supposed to be exercising as heir of Isaac. He had no respect for the right of God to determine His destiny as the heir of the Covenantal Promises. The church is supposed to be busy, each of us, really, looking diligently to make sure nobody winds up like that. Because they become a "root of bitterness."

I don't have it on hand but in previous studies I found that a "root of bitterness" is actually a reference to either the opium poppy or a similar narcotic, toxic plant. It is noxious and defiles people who become intoxicated with it so they can't think straight. The Esaus in the church are like that - they lead people astray, they defile others, they infect others with their profaneness and disrespect for the things of God, including His sovereignty over the church. Like Jezebel they teach God's people to commit fornication and go into a false religion. It may keep the name "Christianity", but it has dethroned God and put up an idol in His place to which obedience is rendered.

A despising of dominion that creeps in and defiles many, and may even jeopardise the entire church's standing before God!

I reminds me of something the Lord showed me almost 20 years ago:

Maschil of Asaph. O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt. Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary. Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs. A man was famous according as he had lifted up axes upon the thick trees. But now they break down the carved work thereof at once with axes and hammers. They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground. They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land. We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long. O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom. For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter. Remember this, that the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and that the foolish people have blasphemed thy name. O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever. Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty. O let not the oppressed return ashamed: let the poor and needy praise thy name. Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily. Forget not the voice of thine enemies: the tumult of those that rise up against thee increaseth continually.
(Psalms 74:1-23)

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Esaias said "We are seated in heavenly places in Christ. That means the local assembly is a "heavenly place" in a sense. So if people have crept in to the local assembly who despise dominion and are gonna be doing THEIR thing, instead of submitting to the Lordship of the Holy Ghost, there's a problem.

They are bringing a defilement into the heavenly place where God is enthroned."

We are seated in heavenly places in Christ but need to purify ourselves from the doctrine of mystery Babylon. All false religion/false dominion has its origin in the tower of babel which was the beast attempting to raise it's head before it's time had come.

I am reading Will Durant's Caesar and Christ, and was surprised to read in the first few pages how the Etruscans, who ruled Rome for hundreds of years (they came from Asia Minor) brought Babylonian religion to the infant beast before the Republic or the dictatorship was ever founded.

The Church is one with Christ, so that when Paul persecuted the church, Jesus said "why are you persecuting me?"

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots

1 Corinthians 6
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

****

sorry for this slight detour Esaias, but could the mystery of iniquity be mystery Babylon who can not be revealed/destroyed until the wheat and tares are separated at the second coming?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Well, I would say there is definitely a connection, in that it seems everything goes back to Babel. All paganism seems to have originated from Babel. And the Babel issue seems to have been probably connected to the stuff going on before the Flood. Human nature itself did not change after the Flood, so there's a commonality between all forms of rebellion against God.

There is nothing new under the sun, in other words.

And it's actually not a detour, because it all comes down to authority - God's vs man's.

In Daniel 2 Nebuchadnezzar has a dream with a vision that Daniel interprets. The four world kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (and it's product, the "Little Horn" - are all seen as part of a unified image of a MAN. All world systems, empires, governments, etc are represented as being different phases of the same essential thing, Man's government, Man's system, Man's "world order" if you will. It's really all the same SYSTEM, existing in defiance of God's Kingdom order.

But thankfully we know that the Stone Kingdom, the one made "without hands", that is, not of human origin but of Divine origin, destroys the Image and fills the whole earth. The "system" is coming down.

And it begins with the CHURCH. The destruction of Nebuchadnezzar's Image begins first with the church, as God redeems people and calls them out from that pagan Babylonian world system. The church is a model, then, of how things not only should be but WILL be.

So we must press onward to "a complete or perfect man". It's a battle between two Men - Christ (represented by His Body, the church), and Adam who seems to be represented by the Image in Daniel 2. But as we have borne the image of the earthly man, we shall also bear the image of the Heavenly Man, the Second Adam, Christ.

Pretty "cosmic" if you ask me. It's actually better than anything Hollywood could ever come up with.Truth is always more interesting than fiction, when you get down to it. :)

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

"Many" think this?" How could they think anything else? There is no devil? No demons? What?

Re: Reconciling and purifying Heaven?
 

Did you not read everything that followed the portion you quoted? I never said there is no devil or there are no demons. I did however show from Scripture what "powers and principalities" has to do with, and it has nothing to do with demons, but everything to do with government and authority.