The Gates of Hell?
 

In the other thread an idea was put forward: Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, and this means there would be a continuous, visible, historically identifiable church on the earth for all time from the apostles' days to the present. (By the term "church" I mean an assembly of truly regenerate believers holding correct doctrine regarding salvation.)

I deny that is what Jesus meant.

I challenge those who believe that to come here and prove it. Prove that the gates of hell not prevailing against the church = a continuous, visible, historical church from the 1st century till now, and identify that church for us.

Then, I will refute your argument(s). In the process, I will prove what He meant, from Scripture.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Do you believe in the traditional view of hell? Literal place people burn for ever.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

I don't believe we'd see a continuous, visible, historically identifiable church. Christ's church is Spiritual. I'd expect to see men within the historic visible, apostate, church persecuted for those very definable doctrines of Apostolic Pentecost. I'd also expect to see many divergent groups of various sizes coalescing around those very definable doctrines of Apostolic Pentecost. They would hold true doctrine, and maintain it until destroyed. But more would reemerge in very generation. Some might form close knit alliances to survive persecution. They would have also preserved and translated their Scriptures, maybe having a couple unique translations in competition with that of the Reformers. They would have even countered the Reformers during the Reformation, pleading that they embrace truth. We'd see this pattern of splinter groups, and maybe a couple older, more enduring groups, alive and well all the way up until the 1900's. The movement in the US would have been supported by them and would have beened welcomed among their number.

Not a single century would have passed without a solid witness of truth from many groups, holding Apostolic doctrine.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

We just don't see this at all in history.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

So, I guess that leaves JamesGlen to support the claim?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

I believe the Bible. :)

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

We'd still have songs of our own in areas of the world that go back generations.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Since you don't want to support the claim, please don't spam the thread with one liners, like You Know Who.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Originalist seemed to be supporting the claim, perhaps he'd like to make a go of it?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Chris, quit sitting on the thread. We're making fun of you on the other one, hurry up.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Gee, I always thought that Jesus was talking about the resurrection from the grave. That the gates of the grave would not prevent the called out ones from continuing in eternal life.

I guess Aquila will let me know if I'm right.

Maybe after he kills another six pack?

:kickcan

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

:thumbsup

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Wow, are you bipolar.

Or should I ask how many people use your account?

Ndavid you were right :tiphat

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Okay. Lol

Who is JamesGlen?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

I've never heard that angle. So, I can't comment.

I don't drink that often. I think the last time I had a drink was Christmas. We opened a bottle of wine with dinner.

But, for the record, I don't really like beer. Some darker ales aren't bad, but I'm not into beer. :nah

I'd prefer Jack Daniels or Telamordue. :bubble

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Seriously, God's Word doesn't return void. If I saw a solid church witness throughout history, I'd weep tears of joy. I'd also repent and preach it the way you do.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

So, history would negate the Biblical witness for you.

Eastern Orthodoxy awaits you for baptism. :lol

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Jack?

I guess when you post you are sipping single barrel proof?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Hell in this verse is hades which is a place of the dead. I have heard preachers talking about storming the gates of hell and I have wondered why would a person want to get in there when Jesus died to get us out. lol.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

:thumbsup

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

They make too much noise as they walk pictures to church. Not my style.

The history would only validate that God didn't drop the ball for nearly 2000 years.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

LOL! No.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

You make a good point. Lol

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

History is always questionable. The reason being is that Christian history rarely has an objective view. Why, because it is Christians throughout history silence all opposition. Being a historian takes detective work, and following leads to primary sources, which in Christianity must start with its holy book, the Bible. Therefore the Bible is the greatest historical reference available. Your personal inability to find Hazelwood Missouri in the Bible still doesn't make the Apostolic Pentecostal message null and void. The Bible backs up the Apostolic message. You can't see that, well get behind groups like the Sedevacantists, The Coptic Church, and Eastern Orthodox church, because they don't see it either, yet they won't swallow your opinions based on nothing more than gut feelings.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Agreed, history is rarely objective.

Let's slow down, no straw men, no attacks. I promise, my questions are not a setup. I'm just looking for information.

Let's both agree on Act 2:38 as the full Gospel, and stop there with no additional thoughts.

Do you at least believe that there was a church, no matter how small or historically invisible, that held the truth?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Well, let me stir this up some. I think the gates were where the elders sat and gave counsel and judgment. Could the gates of hell refer to the counsel of the ungodly?

Look at psalms one where it warns against walking in the counsel of the ungodly.

So taken that way it would mean that the counsel of the ungodly would not prevail.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Look, nothing springs up out of the ether. Meaning that we may think we invented the wheel, but we soon find out others had it long before we did. The Bible is our history book, while we may want to pat ourselves on the back for being Apostolic Pentecostals thinking we were the only ones to baptize in Jesus name and be filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, others did it also. Why, because they had the same instruction manual. MeMaw's cheesy corn bake is handed down through the generations and taste the same because everyone followed her recipe. Yet, some added to it, while others subtracted from it, but there was always a small group who followed the recipe to the t and never wavered. Same thing with the Bible.
Hence we can trace our lineage right back to the Bible. I had to go back and forth with Sedevacantists and Eastern Orthodox over "where did your group come from?" that is how they debate, and that is where they start. To defend you must first show where you get your belief from, and ask them to show their belief right from the historical primary source. If they can't produce the information out of those pages, then they are not the people of the book. Period.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

I think you may be on to something. :)

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

If you SAW a "solid church witness THROUGHOUT HISTORY"? You'd preach it the way THAT GROUP preached it, right?

The closest you'll get is this:

https://www.patriarchate.org

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

"When did your group start? How long have they been around?"

"Oh, when did that become the criterion of truth?"

This quest for a VISIBLE HISTORICAL UNBROKEN CONTINUITY is based on an assumption - an invalid one, at that.

Jesus said "Whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister, etc." Therefore, the true church is identified SOLELY by adherance to the Gospel. Time is irrelevant.

John said "Don't claim historical continuity with Abraham, because God can raise up children unto Abraham from these rocks."

Historical continuity aka "apostolic succession" is an unbiblical doctrine. If it were true, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY ALIVE TODAY IS A MEMBER OF CHRIST'S CHURCH. PERIOD. Including the Coptics, Assyrians, Antiochenes, and Tridentine Latins, not to mention Baptists, Anabaptists, or anybody else.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Good points.

I take it you believe there was someone somewhere embracing truth. I was under the impression that you didn't. I can't see truth being lost for early a thousand years. Especially since Acts 2 appears to be so clear. If your take on it is correct, someone, somewhere had to have seen it too.

Any theories, thoughts, or suspicions about specific groups?

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

I can't take your posts seriously anymore, Aquila. You change what you believe in posts quicker than a Kardashian posting a selfie.

This thread is another example. In another thread you were outright mocking, claiming hell had prevailed because you don't believe there's evidence that the Gospel continued through the dark ages to today.

Now you've changed the narrative.

It's like talking to a schizophrenic with tourettes.

https://m.popkey.co/a0c3a4/Mwlx7_s-200x150.gif

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

When you read the OT, which took particular care to document genealogy you find people like Noah, who was righteous in his generation, while possibly millions died who disobeyed. So there was always a remnant of God's people.

Through the dark ages before the printing press was invented, and books were burned if they offended the Catholic Church, it is difficult to track groups that are not mainstream.

I have a book on a shelf in the library, called "After the way called heresy" that shows a continuation of those who believed this message.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Yes, I mock the notion that it appears that you present, the "us four no more" kind of Heaven you'll have. With God having failed for the majority of history.

But, if you believe there was a church present, no matter how small or invisible, then we have something to work with and we can dig deeper.

But the failure God thing... I just can't embrace it, if that's what you truly think.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Now, you see. That's far better than just saying, "Well, the Bible's true... and since no one believed like me, everybody is lost accept me." lol

I'd like to talk about those of like precious faith who came to truth down through the ages.

EB's theology detests the Dispensational Gaps... but his theology has a gap of nearly 2,000 years that is like, "Oh well, God failed." I can't wrap my brain around that kind of lunacy.... and I'm pretty looney. lol

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Get off of AFF and get to work!!!!

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

Hold up. YOU are the one claiming God failed, that hell prevailed(depending on which thread of yours is to be believed). You. Not me. Not Esaias. Not EB.

The fact that there are millions of oneness, new birth believers all around the world should prove that this Gospel has been present (no matter how invisible) all throughout history.

Again, the only one pushing "God failed, hell prevailed" is YOU.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

That's not what he's saying.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

When EB makes the statement that it doesn't matter if no evidence of truth is found throughout history, he makes the case for Gap-Salvation. Meaning, he feels it is perfectly fine if the truth only saved souls during the first century... and during the 20th century to present. That's why I pressed him. He even argued that we shouldn't worry about history because it isn't always objective. And while there is truth to that, the importance of even looking for "possibilities" could stand to help eliminate the impression of such a gap.

But if we can't find anyone through 2,000 years of history that believed like us... we have a Gap-Salvation theory.

Re: The Gates of Hell?
 

You should read this post again. Not sure how much clearer he could be. I don't read that and see anything about Gap-Salvation theory. Perhaps your reading is prejudiced because you're inserting things which he did not post.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...7&postcount=27

You even responded that he made good points! I'm telling ya, you switch positions quicker than a NASCAR pit stop.