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-   -   Are Trinitarians Saved? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52098)

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 09:37 AM
Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

consapente89 03-22-2018 09:42 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
I believe the answer is something like....

They're as lost as 2 boys kissin.

Amanah 03-22-2018 09:58 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
or maybe

John 8:24 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

consapente89 03-22-2018 10:13 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1523486)
or maybe

John 8:24 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
That too!

Originalist 03-22-2018 10:16 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523481)
If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit.

It is more accurate to say that the one God has revealed himself to mankind as Father, Word, and Spirit. The Word became flesh in the Son. The Spirit that indwells the believer is the Union of the Father and Son.


The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism.

Trinitarian has modalistic features. It is inescapable.


However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest;


Oneness affirms that these manifestations of God are simultaneous.



it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD).


Based on what these men are purported to have believed, the Oneness view is incompatible with their beliefs.


Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.


This is a doctrine that developed over time. There are dozens of different versions of it. You are rare in that you refer to the entire Trinity as "one indivisible person". Most Trinitarians I know would reserve the term "person" for the "substinces". And while we might not use the term "subsistences", we do not deny the distinction of the some from the Father.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost?

Nothing in the UPCI manual says that Trinitarians are lost. You should not repeat disinformation. Most Oneness I know do not believe a perfect understanding of the Godhead is require for salvation. Thus, Trinitarians are not "lost" simply for embracing that term. There are many self-styled Trinitarians whose views of God are identical to mine. We are saved by grace through faith, not by a possessing a perfect explanation for God's unique existence.


Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

I suggest you check-out the writings of Dr. Daniel Seagraves concerning the recent dialog held between Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostals that he was a part of. This is not 1985. You mention only Urshan (who was not a SDr that I know of), but ignore Robert Sabin, who was also involved.
:nod

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 10:51 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523489)
:nod
I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

Originalist 03-22-2018 10:57 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523497)
I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

Please cite in the 2017 manual where all Trinitarians are declared "lost". Thanks.

aegsm76 03-22-2018 11:11 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523497)
I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.
You are not looking for opinions, either.
You are just looking for a fight.

robogreg_2000 03-22-2018 11:11 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
The boys may be brothers!!!!!!! You don't know! You may be lost for judging for all we know! Make sure YOU make heaven YOUR home!

Originalist 03-22-2018 11:11 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523497)
I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

Your personal view seems to call the corporate godhead a "person". Most Trinitarians call only the "subsistences" persons. "One what, three who's" is the current popular phraseology. As for the "Jesus Only" teaching, it does not exist. The term actually was invented by our detractors to describe the way we baptize, not to describe our view of God. Actually, you referring to God as one person and three subsistence sounds more Oneness than Trinitarian! Curious.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.
.

robogreg_2000 03-22-2018 11:16 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
God is the judge!!!!! I know many trinitarian people who are saved and I know countless "ONENESS" people who are as hell bound as the devil himself!!!

aegsm76 03-22-2018 11:18 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogreg_2000 (Post 1523503)
God is the judge!!!!! I know many trinitarian people who are saved and I know countless "ONENESS" people who are as hell bound as the devil himself!!!
Now that is funny!
You say that God is the judge, then you proceed to judge!

Esaias 03-22-2018 11:29 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523481)
If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?
I do not think you have a correct understanding of Oneness theology. God, our Father, who is Spirit, who is the Word, was manifested in flesh, whom we know as Jesus Christ. His virgin birth is what particularly entitles Him to be called "the Son of God". His resurrection declares Him to be so. The terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are terms referring to God in His various capacities and relations to man. The relational aspects between the terms, as relating to each other, arise due to the Incarnation. Thus, the "distinctions" exist due to Christ's humanity, and NOT due to eternal relations between several divine minds or "persons".

The early Oneness believers, so called, were excommunicated by the catholic apostates via their Ecumenical Councils and Papal Decrees. Those same people, by the same means, invented the doctrine of trinitarianism, along with clericalism, veneration of relics, prayer to the dead, Purgatory, the Magisterium, and a host of other Antichrist doctrines.

The doctrine of the trinity cannot be found anywhere stated in Scripture. The core, required affirmations of trinitarianism likewise cannot be found in Scripture (except for those shared with the Biblical Oneness view). Therefore, trinitarianism is of necessity a post-apostolic non-biblical doctrine. That alone renders it human opinion and not necessary to be believed. But it also flatly contradicts the Strict Monotheism of the Bible. Which renders it heresy, which if persisted in will ........ the soul.

Eternal life is to know the true God and Jesus Christ. Therefore, highly erroneous beliefs about God and Christology are incompatible with eternal life.

Originalist 03-22-2018 11:35 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523481)
If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?
Here is a diagram provided previously by the post Aquila....

https://i.imgur.com/ordsMzc.png

Originalist 03-22-2018 11:41 AM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523481)
If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

Here is a research paper I recently wrote on the subject...

Attachment 6113

Aquila 03-22-2018 12:12 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Here's a thought...

If we are identified with Christ alone through baptism in His name... are Trinitarians not identified with Trinitarianism, and not Christ alone, through the threefold formula?

n david 03-22-2018 12:35 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
"Are Trinitarians Saved?"

https://i.imgur.com/wQcae8D.gif

Aquila 03-22-2018 01:07 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Strict Baptist,

I have a question that is primarily focused on the baptismal formula.

Regardless as to what one believes about water baptism's role in salvation, Scripture appears to be clear that water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus only:
(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Also, various historians and historical sources have noted that water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus only:
Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351:"The evidence suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (1965), I, 53:"At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241:"[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (1947), page 58:"The trinitarian baptismal formula was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435:"The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus... which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53:"Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'… Afterwards, with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, they were baptized 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473:"It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365:"The trinitarian formula and triune immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning. Baptism into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."
With the witness of both Scripture and History, testifying to the historical reality of baptism originally being done in the name of Jesus... I have to ask you...

Do you believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus?

Yes or no?

*Please note: The sources above are from mainstream sources.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 02:23 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523498)
Please cite in the 2017 manual where all Trinitarians are declared "lost". Thanks.
I missed part of your post stating you believe the manifestations are simultaneous; how do you deal with the Transfiguration or baptism, for example? As to the aforementioned manual, I will see about quoting it another time when I have access since I don't have it on this device.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 02:28 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1523522)
Strict Baptist,

I have a question that is primarily focused on the baptismal formula.

Regardless as to what one believes about water baptism's role in salvation, Scripture appears to be clear that water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus only:
(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Also, various historians and historical sources have noted that water baptism was originally performed in the singular name of Jesus only:
Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351:"The evidence suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (1965), I, 53:"At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241:"[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (1947), page 58:"The trinitarian baptismal formula was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435:"The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus... which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."

Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53:"Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'… Afterwards, with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, they were baptized 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473:"It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365:"The trinitarian formula and triune immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning. Baptism into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."
With the witness of both Scripture and History, testifying to the historical reality of baptism originally being done in the name of Jesus... I have to ask you...

Do you believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus?

Yes or no?

*Please note: The sources above are from mainstream sources.
As stated, I put a baptismal debate request out in the Salvational Issues section of the Debate subform. Nobody answered; only Esaias showed interest with questions to clarify. If you'd like to discuss this on SPBR, you can email me or message me. I'd be happy to discuss that there especially since baptism wasn't the topic of this thread.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 02:31 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523510)
Here is a research paper I recently wrote on the subject...

Attachment 6113
I shall have a read as soon as possible. Nevertheless, my reading list is so long that it will likely outlive me!

Amanah 03-22-2018 02:31 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523530)
I missed part of your post stating you believe the manifestations are simultaneous; how do you deal with the Transfiguration or baptism, for example? As to the aforementioned manual, I will see about quoting it another time when I have access since I don't have it on this device.
this is a link to the manual online


http://www.pentecostalsofdadeville.c...upcimanual.pdf

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 02:41 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1523507)
I do not think you have a correct understanding of Oneness theology. God, our Father, who is Spirit, who is the Word, was manifested in flesh, whom we know as Jesus Christ. His virgin birth is what particularly entitles Him to be called "the Son of God". His resurrection declares Him to be so. The terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are terms referring to God in His various capacities and relations to man. The relational aspects between the terms, as relating to each other, arise due to the Incarnation. Thus, the "distinctions" exist due to Christ's humanity, and NOT due to eternal relations between several divine minds or "persons".

The early Oneness believers, so called, were excommunicated by the catholic apostates via their Ecumenical Councils and Papal Decrees. Those same people, by the same means, invented the doctrine of trinitarianism, along with clericalism, veneration of relics, prayer to the dead, Purgatory, the Magisterium, and a host of other Antichrist doctrines.

The doctrine of the trinity cannot be found anywhere stated in Scripture. The core, required affirmations of trinitarianism likewise cannot be found in Scripture (except for those shared with the Biblical Oneness view). Therefore, trinitarianism is of necessity a post-apostolic non-biblical doctrine. That alone renders it human opinion and not necessary to be believed. But it also flatly contradicts the Strict Monotheism of the Bible. Which renders it heresy, which if persisted in will ........ the soul.

Eternal life is to know the true God and Jesus Christ. Therefore, highly erroneous beliefs about God and Christology are incompatible with eternal life.
I appreciate your statement, except that Irenæus and Tertullian believed in the Trinity, for whatever wrong or right they were, long before 325, 451, etcetera, including we Waldenses who ever were independent of Rome and barbarically persecuted by the little horn. I could point out the Hebrews did believe in two Creators (bara in Job 35.10 and The Preacher 12.1 is plural, and there is the Elohim problem) or Jehovahs, or Isaiah 48, but since this is not a debate, I rather to see what you neo-Sabellians believe. Is stating the Father, Son and Spirit are the manifestations of Christ correct, or that this is the Father in Oneness doctrine?

Aquila 03-22-2018 03:03 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523531)
As stated, I put a baptismal debate request out in the Salvational Issues section of the Debate subform. Nobody answered; only Esaias showed interest with questions to clarify. If you'd like to discuss this on SPBR, you can email me or message me. I'd be happy to discuss that there especially since baptism wasn't the topic of this thread.
Well, I know that water baptism isn't the topic of the thread. However, salvation is. And what I'm trying to determine is... do you believe in things as the found in Scripture, and as historians testify they were?

Because, if you don't.... you're doctrine is already off.

BuckeyeBukaroo 03-22-2018 03:34 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
I think some Trinitarians will be saved-- but don't ask me how because I just don't know. All I know is what I know and that He knows and loves me. Keeping my records right while watching both day and night is just enough to keep me busy from throwing rocks at them.

Amanah 03-22-2018 03:37 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Oneness:

I think the foundational truth is that God is a Spirit
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
There is only One Spirit
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
And Jesus is that Spirit come in the flesh
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
When you have Jesus, you have the Father
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus
John 14:18 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Amanah 03-22-2018 03:48 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Jesus is the name of the Father
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jesus is the name of the Son
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus is the name of the Spirit
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jesus is the name given for salvation
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Amanah 03-22-2018 03:51 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
If you are not baptized in the name of Jesus, you are not saved.
Acts 2:38 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

consapente89 03-22-2018 04:00 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeBukaroo (Post 1523544)
I think some Trinitarians will be saved-- but don't ask me how because I just don't know. All I know is what I know and that He knows and loves me. Keeping my records right while watching both day and night is just enough to keep me busy from throwing rocks at them.
Yes, some trinitarians will be saved. Thank God.

How? By obeying the Gospel and repenting of their sins, their false trinitarian doctrine, being Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Ghost. Trinitarians will be saved just the same way as every other NT Christian.

I was once a trinitarian, but now I'm saved!

Originalist 03-22-2018 04:01 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1523552)
If you are not baptized in the name of Jesus, you are not saved.
Acts 2:38 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
True. But there is indeed room for debate as to what constitutes being baptized in the name of Jesus.

consapente89 03-22-2018 04:01 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523558)
True. But there is indeed room for debate as to what constitutes being baptized in the name of Jesus.
No there isn't.

Originalist 03-22-2018 04:03 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523535)
I appreciate your statement, except that Irenæus and Tertullian believed in the Trinity, for whatever wrong or right they were, long before 325, 451, etcetera, including we Waldenses who ever were independent of Rome and barbarically persecuted by the little horn. I could point out the Hebrews did believe in two Creators (bara in Job 35.10 and The Preacher 12.1 is plural, and there is the Elohim problem) or Jehovahs, or Isaiah 48, but since this is not a debate, I rather to see what you neo-Sabellians believe. Is stating the Father, Son and Spirit are the manifestations of Christ correct, or that this is the Father in Oneness doctrine?
Try cutting out calling us neo-Sabellians for starters. He believed in successive manifestations, or so his enemies said. We believe in simultaneous manifestations.

BuckeyeBukaroo 03-22-2018 04:37 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by consapente89 (Post 1523556)
Yes, some trinitarians will be saved. Thank God.

How? By obeying the Gospel and repenting of their sins, their false trinitarian doctrine, being Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Ghost. Trinitarians will be saved just the same way as every other NT Christian.

I was once a trinitarian, but now I'm saved!
WE are saved, as in SAFE, as long as we continue. I doubt the salvation of Trinitarians but I don't doubt the Grace and Mercy of God. If there is any way where Trinitarians can be saved, I believe God will act in His Sovereignty and do as He Wills. I just wouldn't want to be a Trinitarian.

BuckeyeBukaroo 03-22-2018 04:44 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Our salvation is not based on or connected to our 100% assurance that Trinitarians are going to bust hell wide open.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 05:53 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523560)
Try cutting out calling us neo-Sabellians for starters. He believed in successive manifestations, or so his enemies said. We believe in simultaneous manifestations.
Again, the term is accurate since though you still maintain Sabellius' partialism, you do not concur with each point of his doctrine, neither I imagine would he have concurred entirely with your camp's modifications of what he believed, much less Nœtus, Theodoret or Praxeus, you still deny hypostasis. I have met Oneness proponents who argued for successive manifestations and not simultaneous ones, which term would fit the term. Either way, it is all partialism no matter what term you employ, friend.

Also, so that I don't misrepresent your camp, do answer my query.

Originalist 03-22-2018 05:57 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523576)
Again, the term is accurate since though you still maintain Sabellius' partialism, you do not concur with each point of his doctrine, neither I imagine would he have concurred entirely with your camp's modifications of what he believed, much less Nœtus, Theodoret or Praxeus, you still deny hypostasis. I have met Oneness proponents who argued for successive manifestations and not simultaneous ones, which term would fit the term. Either way, it is all partialism no matter what term you employ, friend.
Trinitarianism is really a strange combination of partialism and modalism.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 05:59 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1523550)
Jesus is the name of the Father
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jesus is the name of the Son
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus is the name of the Spirit
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jesus is the name given for salvation
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
If I send a man to pay for your hotel room in my name, does that person transitively take on my name? Does that hotel room become mine or yours if registered for you? Again, my point is not to contend here, but to analyze. It seems Oneness proponents have varying thoughts on the topic just as much as those I encountered in the past.

Originalist 03-22-2018 05:59 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by consapente89 (Post 1523559)
No there isn't.
Actually, you are right. Baptism in the name of Jesus has little to do with invocations of baptizers. That is not debatable.

Strict Baptist 03-22-2018 06:06 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1523577)
Trinitarianism is really a strange combination of partialism and modalism.
Friend, I am not going to argue you, but that is your unfounded opinon. We do not believe in partialism that is another term for modalism. Good day.

Praxeas 03-22-2018 06:13 PM
Re: Are Trinitarians Saved?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist (Post 1523497)
...
I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism.
How did you get one?

Please take a clear photo on the quote in question


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