Uncut Hair
 

Is it wrong for a lady to cut her hair?

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Long hair is scriptural. Not "uncut".

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Oh, so if you only read English it's long, but if you read Spanish, or Greek it is growing hair?

Gotcha.

Whatever.

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I'm not going to answer on this one, but I got a video of the Greek scholar Marvin D. Treece to share. He will explain it. If you haven't listened to him, this is a good source He had translations of Acts, Corinthians, Hebrews, and Revelations. Called "The Literal Word".

https://youtu.be/NrCtdhTYvxc

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I agree with much of what you have to say brother. Annnnd, I am not all fired up about this subject so I didn't vote.

But if your wife (or my wife or daughters) cuts their hair, one thing is for sure. It will not be as long. Right?

I personally prefer my wife and daughters to have uncut hair (and they do).

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Long hair for women is good and its scriptural. I have not had a scripture ever presented to me that teaches women cant trim their hair.

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The covering prescribed in the Bible for a woman is something other than her hair-- else all men with hair on their head would dishonor God every time they prayed.

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In amending my bye, I think what is interesting about this discussion is that early continuationists most definitely did have standards about hair length. One of the complaints against AS McPherson was her bobbing her hair after her infamous adultery with a former employee Ken Orminston. Her big 300-strong quire ultimately resigned ab ovo for what they saw in McPherson as capitulation to worldilness and specifically unbiblical per Dr DW Cloud's The Pentecostal & Charismatic Movements: The History & The Error, page 76 of the 2014 edition. I cannot speak to what period Oneness Pentecostals believed. Nonetheless, short hair on a woman was seen shameful per Saul's legislation a man ought not to have long hair. I see no reason a woman sins by cutting her hair if her hair still maintains the modesty required of a Christian. I see short-haired strumpets almost dialy, some even shaved nearly bald, in this university city, finding it a revolting practice in this rakehelly last season. What was once rejected is highly fashionable (Isa. 1, 5; Luke 16.16-20). It is totally unattractive.

Some early pioneer standards were rather nomist, such as abstaining from pork mandated by JA Dowie and AJ Tomlinson, which in the latter case wws thought to be the dining of the unsaved.

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I believe you’re right about this. I’ve had them presented plenty. I just don’t believe they were in the proper context.

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The forsaking of a covering is a markedly late invention by the church world at large. Feminism has successfully liberated women from scriptural modesty into beastly communism, down to the nadir of existence where she is only worth her parts. I miss the days to a degree in my boyhood where a woman wearing yoga pants would be dismissed from public for her lewd clothes. Now, even children wear it. We would have been suspended for that two decades or less ago.

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I studied this topic years ago and I came to the same conclusion.

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You all are exactly right. As I understand it most of the "Black" Apostolics practice this. I cant think off hand of any of the "White" Apostolics that do.

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Being a brother if my hair is to my behind but trimmed, is it long?

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Bump

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What we are discovering is that it is at least a shame if not a sin for women to pray or prophesy in the meeting without a veil/covering. Likewise for a many to pray or prophesy in the meeting with one on.

Long hair being used as nature pointing to this truth.

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First the text:

I Corinthians 11:1-16 (NLT)
1 And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.
2 I am so glad that you always keep me in your thoughts, and that you are following the teachings I passed on to you. 3 But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 A man dishonors his head if he covers his head while praying or prophesying. 5 But a woman dishonors her head if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. 6 Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering.
7 A man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping, for man is made in God’s image and reflects God’s glory. And woman reflects man’s glory. 8 For the first man didn’t come from woman, but the first woman came from man. 9 And man was not made for woman, but woman was made for man. 10 For this reason, and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority.
11 But among the Lord’s people, women are not independent of men, and men are not independent of women. 12 For although the first woman came from man, every other man was born from a woman, and everything comes from God.
13 Judge for yourselves. Is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering her head? 14 Isn’t it obvious that it’s disgraceful for a man to have long hair? 15 And isn’t long hair a woman’s pride and joy? For it has been given to her as a covering. 16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God’s other churches.

Here is my understanding of the issue:

1. The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man. (Proper headship)
2. Men covering their head in worship dishonours their head. (because to wear a head covering is to pray like a Jew, one still under the Law)
3. Women uncovering their head in worship dishonours their head. (uncovering the head was viewed as being immodest, and dishonors a woman's husband)
4. Uncovered women are on the same level of dishonour as if they had their hair shaved off. (because a woman with her head shaved was typically either a prostitute or an adulteress)
5. If the woman chooses not to cover, she ought to have her hair cut off. (this indicates that if a Christian woman will not live modestly, she should be shamed like an adulteress)
6. But it is a shame for her to have her hair cut or shaved off, so she ought to be covered to avoid that. (amen. since it is a shame for a woman to be shaved, she should simply wear her covering and avoid bringing any measure of shame to herself or her husband)
7. Man is the glory of God. (for man was made first, in the very image of God)
8. Woman is the glory of the man. (because a woman was created to complement the man, and to suit his desires)
9. The woman was created for the man, not the other way around. (the woman was indeed created to be man's mate and companion)
10. Because of the angels. (a reference to the early belief that angels also attended worship, offering up prayers to God, and were offended by sin, carnality, and immodesty)
11. Even nature teaches that a man ought to be uncovered, because long hair on a man is a shame. (nature being shown as a fitting example as to why a man shouldn't be covered, but not a rule)
12. Even nature teaches that a woman ought to be covered, because long hair on a woman is a glory to her. (nature being shown as a fitting example as to why a woman should be covered, but not a rule)
13. The apostles teach no other custom. (Modesty and submission to headship is indeed taught by the apostles)
14. The churches of God have no other custom. (those churches following the teaching of the apostles also teach modesty and submission to headship)

Modesty is always a Christian spiritual practice, regardless of culture. So is submission to one's husband. The fact that the issue surrounded the veil is immaterial. It could have involved low necklines, plaited hair, or inappropriate dancing during worship. Such immodesty and disregard for the will of a woman's husband dishonors a woman's head, meaning her husband. We often fixate upon the material topic at hand, establish some outward legalistic "standard", and in the process we miss the underlying eternal principles that are at work.

Today, in our culture, a husband might ask that his wife not wear tight clothing, short skirts, low cut blouses, ostentatious jewelry or clothing, excessive makeup, a "bedroom-look" hair-style, etc. Should she disregard his will by professing some form of "Christian liberty" and appears immodest in the congregation (especially during worship) she insults the angels and dishonors her husband (her head)... just like the Corinthian women did when refusing to wear the veil in Paul's day.

In short, a woman can take up the practice of wearing a "head covering", but if her skirt is so tight she "duck-walks" into the gathering place for worship she is just as much in violation of the principles in I Corinthians 11 as the women in ancient Corinth were.

Why?

Because the underlying principles being taught by Paul weren't strictly about the "veil". A head covering is no "magic token" or "sacramental garb". Nor is it commanded anywhere in Scripture. What Paul was illustrating was the need for submission and modesty.

I'd also like to say that submission and modesty are not two different things as it relates to women. In fact, submission is a necessary element of modesty for Christian women. A Christian woman can be dressed as conservatively modest by all cultural standards... but if she isn't in loving submission to her husband... she's being brazen, prideful, and rebellious. Such attitudes, or dispositions of spirit, are brazenly immodest.

I believe that the issue Paul was addressing in I Corinthians 11:1-16 was that their women were becoming overzealous in their Christian liberty and choosing not to wear their veils in gatherings. They were even praying and prophesying without their veils. Culturally, only women of loose heathen morals and prostitutes (who shaved their heads) paraded around unveiled. This greatly disturbed the men in the congregation, because their wives were appearing too "loose". Their immodesty was insulting and only served to bring shame to their husbands. The men felt that the women should be made to wear their veils. The women felt their new found liberty in Christ should be exercised. The women were being immodest and not submitting to the headship of their husbands.

The issue was therefore not hair, not a head covering requirement, but rather an issue of immodesty and lack of submission.

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I was discussing this point with a friend the other day. If this is the case, I think the discussion should surround that issue.


But, the issue is about hair because the text says that it is. Perhaps, if we honestly get the head right, the rest falls into place. I say, honestly, because then we can't drag in the broadbrush of those who don't get it right.

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The issue about hair is that you guys read in English. :heeheehee

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Why state “to let the hair grow” when he could have said “uncut.”

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1 Corintios 11:15

15 Por el contrario, a la mujer dejarse crecer el cabello le es honroso; porque en lugar de velo le es dado el cabello.

Doesn't say long here.

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Did you get some rest?

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1 Corinthians 11:15

mentre è una gloria per la donna lasciarseli crescere? La chioma le è stata data a guisa di velo.

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What does Thayers mean by - by designating hair as an ornament (the notion of length being only secondary and suggested).

I recently heard someone just preach that our long uncut hair is a covenant. Of course, that would then mean it isn't a suggestion.

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Hardly. Forgot the term. That sleep when you feel like you’re awake. I did make it to Houston a few minutes before 7:00a.m.

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Do you believe in a secondary covering, uncut hair or both?

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Because the Greek word κομᾷ means to wear the hair as tresses long flowing ornamentation. When we read how other Greek writers before, during, and after the New Testament use κομᾷ in their writings. We see it used as having the hair as long flowing tresses. Length being secondary I would have to ask Mr Thayer. Because when you look up the Greek word and how it was used in Antiquity it always denotes growing, and flowing down. The Translators of the KJV never even dreamed that we would be hitting a stump over the word long used in the chapter. Due to their understanding of their own culture where, one women always covered their heads in some fashion, and never cut their hair. Men wore their hair either bald, or shoulder length. Mostly their cultural understanding was handed down from the Vulgate of Rome, which explains the verse as a woman have nutriat in the verse meaning to allow to grow, to nurture it as one does a child, not hindering the growth. Hence the Italian crescere, and the Spanish "crecer el cabello."

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Yes, I believe that the consensus would be that it is long. Which would be contrary to the verse that is quoted later . . .

1 Corinthians 11:16

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

It is pretty obvious that the long in long hair is going to be subjective, as it is for women. Long as compared to what?

What I would like to focus on is the word nature. To me nature is what happens if there is no outside interference. So what is nature teaching us?

This is the way I understand it. If we take a look around in any congregation, we will see many times more bald men than we will see bald women. It is indeed unusual to see a bald woman. A bald man? Not so much! So there's that.

The other verse I would like to look at is verse 16 . . .

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

If any man be contentious . . . Is there any contentiousness from any man?
I think it is obvious that there is. Some are contending for long hair, some are contending for hair that is uncut, some are contending that it really doesn't matter that much. There is much contending on the subject of long hair for women! So we have qualified in the contention category.

So what does the remainder of the verse say? . . . we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

If there is contention, we have no such custom. It is not there. It is interesting that Paul refers to it as a custom and not a commandment as well.

That's my thoughts. As I have said earlier in the thread, my preference for my house is uncut hair for the ladies, however if you want to contend with me about it, I refuse to do so. According to the scripture.

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What does this say? What language is it?

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Bro, please and also Michael. You must get restful sleep. Caffeine has a half life 5 to 6 hours. Meaning that it is ONLY to be consumed in the morning. The later you drink it, the harder it is to get rest. No "restful" sleep will pretty much kill you. What happens first is plummeting testosterone. Now, this is super dangerous. You as a male need your T levels at their optimum, and it is no joke. Hormonal imbalances can cause all sorts of issues, which show up first emotionally. Also with falling T levels you have rising cortisol levels, which not only destroy T levels, but attack brain function, joints, ligament, muscle tissue, blood circulation, motivation. Being unmotivated and being tired, doesn't mean we will achieve "restful" deep sleep. I believe Chris even posted how the screen electronics can jam up our sleep by actually keeping us awake. Also where we sleep is another factor, and a mattress which is perfect for us is important. Also pillow, also if we snore or if we stop breathing during our sleep that our body has to constantly wake us up or we suffocate. Anyway, with all that being said first, watch the caffeine (in all forms) intake.

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Bro, aren't you bald?

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Spanish


"On the contrary, the woman is allowed to grow her hair; because instead of veil is given the hair."

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I’ve been working over night since 2015. The first year I got maybe 3-4 hours of sleep on most days. The second year I was burnt and I began to sleep good. I’m programmed to sleep during the day And be up all night. But sometimes I can’t sleep during the day so I’m up 24-36 hours at a time.

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I can see the issue needing to be addressed with the Messianic/Hebrew Roots crowd that has men wearing Talits while reading Scripture, etc., in church. But among us Gentiles, in our Gentile churches, it isn't a real issue.

What's your angle? I'm curious.

Paul opens with this statement:

I Corinthians 11:3-6 (ESV)
3 But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 A man dishonors his head (Christ) if he covers his head while praying or prophesying. 5 But a woman dishonors her head (her husband) if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head, for this is the same as shaving her head. 6 Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! (like a prostitute) But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering.

Paul's opening statement on the issue is why I believe that the issue was about headship and how women were dishonoring their husbands by not wearing their head coverings. This was an immodest act, and so this is why it was the same as if she were shaven like a prostitute (an immodest and loose woman). Clearly the women were disregarding their husband's admonitions to be covered. For this reason, they were not only being immodest, but they were challenging the headship of their husbands. And so, Paul addresses both issues as they relate to one another.

The ladies were getting all excited and going too far in their Christian liberty.

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I think Paul was saying that if any man seem to be contentious about these things, we have no such custom... meaning... we aren't contentious about modesty and a woman's place in God's order. The New Living Translation renders the verse as such:

1 Corinthians 11:16 New Living Translation (NLT)
16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God’s other churches.

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I started on 3rd shift in 2011. For a week I slept ok. Then it hit. I did probably average 5 hours sleep per day. I retired in January so Im back to regular 1st shift type hours. It has been very hard so far. I thought I would quickly adjust but its slow transitioning so far.

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But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1 Cor 11:15

Well I checked my 8 version New Testament and not one version uses the phrase "instead of ".

Neither does any of them use "is allowed to grow her hair".

However if it did say she is allowed to grow her hair thats good. But it would certainly not mean she is never allowed to cut it. Just that she is allowed to grow it.

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Bro, you have to sleep. You have to get good rest. I cannot stress this enough.
Because when we end up in the hospital we won't be working at the job. Then we have the hospital keeping us up.

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The Greek means flowing down so much as it becomes ornamental. The Vulgate understands the Greek in its purest form, to allow to raise to maturity. Just like the Italian and the Spanish. So, these Latin cultures had hundreds of years of women NOT cutting their hair because of their understanding of their scriptures. American Modernists on the other hand were taught in English, with a Christian culture born out of the 60s. The history is linguistic one. On how these people understood the documents in their own language. Translators don't pull their definitions out of the air, they pull from the literature which was of the same time as the documents they are translating. Keeping with the culture which was then. We adopt that ancient culture as how we are to behave, not to inject our own modern culture bias into their writings, therefore losing all meaning.

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Amen, but you and I aren't getting younger. Therefore sleep (as good rest) deep sleep is important.

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Are you saying that a woman can't nurture, or raise her hair to maturity, allowing it to flow down so much as it becomes ornamental, if she trims dead ends, or cuts it to keep it from bothering her? Doesn't a farmer prune and trim the vine as part of nurturing, that it might grow to maturity and produce the most beautiful fruit?