The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Something that I dont get. Many (not all) Oneness Pentecostals say there is absolutely no such thing as the "light doctrine". AND YET...among themselves that is exactly what they practice.

Here is an example from another thread:

Is this the way to approach the foundation truths of Jesus Christ?

Many Trins when approached with more truth on who Jesus is would say exactly what this brother says about the rapture.

They say, why all the strife between Oneness and Trinity? We both believe Jesus is God! There scriptures either way! After all none of us no for sure! The main thing is to believe in obedience to Jesus!

Many (not all) OP would mock these Trins and say they are going to Hell because they dont love the truth but THEY THEMSELVES, among themselves can say, "We dont have to agree on the 2nd coming or the resurrection, or the eternal judgment!"

They reason "good men can differ in their understanding of these issues so as long as they believe on Oneness and Acts 2:38 their fine brethren!"

So they condemn to Hell one group with no exceptions, all that say they are a "Trinitarian" for not loving the truth but give themselves a pass on other foundation teachings of Jesus Christ.

To them what is essential is only a PART of the truth. Not ALL of the truth. They really think God will condemn people over teaching Oneness and Acts 2:38 wrong...but will accept THEM no matter what they believe!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

You are teaching eschatology brings salvation? You got the cart before the horse. And most importantly you are missing the most important thing, you can't even say for sure. The second coming is going to happen. But you can't present enough evidence to say for sure when. Acts 2:38 is salvation it's the foundation, the Oneness of God is the foundation, Holiness is a foundation, but you can't present one scripture that says when the rapture is going to come (as that term is not even there), and at what point it's going to come, will effect your salvation. The main thing is we do like the 5 wise virgins and keep our lamps full of oil. Staying full of the Holy Ghost. For no man knows the day or the hour. So that we can hear the Trump,xoxxxo when it does happen! Youould get your foundation down, before you start working on the roof!!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

All valid points and concerns. But don't you sometimes just want to get away from all of this and just focus on HIM? I know I do. Without him I can do nothing. I need him now more than ever. No, I do not have all truth. No, I do not have a perfect understanding of the God head. I do not think any of do. But one think we do know, is that we need him more than the air we breathe. He is our very spiritual life. The Holy Ghost flowing through us is eternal life and peace. God help us not to be so focused on figuring out every mystery to the point that we lose focus of him in our lives.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Amen!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I don't buy into the Light Doctrine. That establishes a "doctrine" a "teaching" a principle that would permit anyone outside of full Acts 2:38 or Oneness to be saved based on what little they might know concerning the fullness of biblical truth.

What troubles me most about the Light Doctrine is that it would make NOT sharing the fullness of truth with other "Christians" in their best interest. It would be best to allow them to live in all the light they know and be saved, than to present the fullness of truth, risk them rejecting it, and then have them be condemned.

I'm of the opinion that there is absolutely no assurance of salvation outside of Acts 2:38. All we can do is entrust the fate of those faithful and devout Christians who die outside of Acts 2:38 into the hands of God. He is a righteous judge and will always do what is just. May God have mercy on their souls. And I think we should leave it there.

I cannot in good conscience refer to anyone outside of Acts 2:38 and tell you that they were saved with absolute assurance. Likewise, I cannot look at you and tell you in good conscience that I know how God will judge such a one and condemn them to Hell with absolute assurance. I can only entrust their fate to God, knowing He will judge righteously.

With that said, I admonish that we preach, teach, and obey Acts 2:38 so that we can share and experience the blessed assurance of eternal salvation.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Amen bottom line!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I'm glad you understood my post even with all the typos.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Ok. Fine. But now what about people AFTER Acts 2:38? Are they given a pass because THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND BIBLICAL TRUTH? Is Jesus ok with us coming together all with different views of his truth?

Will he look out among the Pre tribs, Preterists and immortal soul adherents and say "I know my word was to hard to understand and really it was not even important anyway! So because you were baptized in Jesus name, even tho you spurned a lot of my truth the kingdom is ALL YOURS!

See the point? Apostolics cut themselves an eternal break when it comes to not understanding truth that they wont allow for anyone else.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

What about those who don't claim to know the answers to all of these questions but continue to seek God while leaving it all in his hands? Some die truly not being convinced 100 % on where they stood on some of the issues you mention. Do they then de lost?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Thats the point. Many Apostolics would say well yea we just werent sure. They seem to think they will be ok. But if its anyone outside of Oneness who is not fully convinced they will go to Hell.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

It’s not the light doctrine. Stop calling it that.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

This is why, as much as I believe I'm "right", I remind myself I will always fall short of truth, and the glory of God.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

No one is going to hell over eschatology. :crazy

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

No, he's calling it the "Apostolic Light" doctrine. Because he believes wrong eschatology will send someone to hell. Since there are probably less than a dozen who believe like him, he's calling it the Apostolic Light doctrine.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

Apostle Paul writes:

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Was Paul an Apostle? Did he tell the Church....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS....that day of Christ will NOT COME except there be a falling away first and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED the son of perdition?

If Paul said whoever teaches the day of Christ can come before the man of sin is revealed he is A DECEIVER, we ask the simple question do deceivers get to go to Heaven?

So do Apostolics somehow get a free pass? They are allowed to be deceivers and be deceived but the horrible deceiving Trinitarian, if THEY deceive someone or are themselves deceived THEY must go straight to Hell for millions, billions, and trillions of years.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Bro Michael, if I'm understanding your position, all on this forum other than you are hell bound

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I'm calling it the Apostolic "light" doctrine to prove Apostolics believe in it. You all are proving it quite readily.

You believe that as long as one is Oneness and Pentecostal he will not go to Hell over his other beliefs. It could be the doctrines of Christ are to hard to understand and so if we teach them falsely Christ will understand and judge us just by the fact our intentions were good. We did the best (we thought) we could and just did not understand.

But yet when the Trin says the very same excuse as to why he believed in the Trinity over Oneness, we say well they rejected the truth so thats it.

Dont forget friends, we are saved by the LOVE OF THE TRUTH. 2 Thess 2:10.


If you think all that means is Acts 2:38 and Oneness time to read the word for yourself.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

My Sister, would you care to address my post from 2:33 pm?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Great points.

I actually had two trains of thought that passed through my mind as I contemplated the points you made. And they are very different from one another. On is more practical, the other is more spiritual. So, I'll share them both in two different posts in response to the points you've made.

First, the more practical line of reasoning...

In my family there are liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, and at least one Libertarian. There are parents who believe in free range parenting, and parents who believe in helicopter parenting. Some are religious, others are not. Some put much emphasis on health and wellness, others do not. We often debate, bicker, and fight with one another over our different takes on politics, religion, parenting, food, etc.

But we're family. Those outside of our family are not. On some family discussions, it's best if a visitor not involve themselves. On some lighter issues, we might welcome them into the discussion. But remember, they are not family. When push comes to shove, we'll unite against an outsider who is too nasty to one of us, regardless of our differences, and regardless as to if a part of the family would ordinarily agree with that persons position on something. And no, we don't give the outsider the same rights among us as we give one another.

Family is family.

Those who have been born again (Acts 2:38) are family. Paul uses terms in reference to other believers such as elders, brothers, sisters, mothers, etc. We might have disagreements on various interpretations of the Bible. We might debate, disagree, argue, slam doors, etc. in our family "discussions" if disagreements become too heated. But again, we're family.

Those who have not been born into our family are not family and any position they hold or don't hold is immaterial to our family.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Oh ok I see. When Paul warned not to let ANYONE DECEIVE them, since the deceivers are family they get to go to Heaven!

Is this not the Apostolic light doctrine? Or is is it the Apostolic OSAS doctrine?

ALL THAT MATTERS IS ACTS 2:38!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

are you arguing that those who believe false eschatology are lost?

or are you arguing that because Apostolics have various beliefs in eschatology, we should accept that Trinitarians might be saved?

or are you arguing that if we think Trinitarians are lost because they have not obeyed the gospel, that we are lost if we are not perfect in the understanding of our eschatology?

I believe you must obey the gospel to be saved (Acts 2:38).
It's the ABCs of the bible.

I think that eschatology is the PhD of biblical understanding and not having perfect understanding does not send you to hell.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

The second line of reasoning is...

Are we defining "truth" correctly?

We often talk about truth. We hear it in almost every sermon, at least two or three times. "Truth, truth, truth, truth." We tend to look at truth as though it is doctrine. However... what if "truth" isn't necessarily doctrine... but rather a more abstract or spiritual reality?

Jesus said,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If we stop and contemplate Christ's words we realize that it is Jesus who is "truth". Truth isn't so much as a doctrine, but a person. And who is Jesus? Jesus is God. And what is God? God is a Spirit. And what is the very essence of that Spirit? Love itself.

Jesus is Divine Love incarnate. Divine Love is truth.

Abiding in a state of agape, a state of love, is to abide within the bonds of love. And love supersedes all interpretations, doctrines, and opinions. It even fulfills the law itself:

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We read again in Galatians,

Galatians 5:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

We bicker, argue, fight, debate, and divide over interpretations, doctrines, and various commandments in Scripture. But that is only on the intellectual level. There's a deeper spiritual reality abiding in our inner man. The underlying divine reality of it all is quite simple and yet... unexplainably profound. Love. Divine love is the truth that unifies and eliminates all human inconsistencies. Being Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Preterist, none of that matters if one doesn't have love. And if one has love... none of it matters because one has love.

I believe it was once asked of Hillel of Shammai, "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." And Hillel answered:

"That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

The fullness of all truth and doctrine is to abide in a state of love. In this, abiding in truth is more of a state of being than it is a state of "doing" or "believing". For in the eternal state, all of these differences will fade from consciousness as we behold the only divine reality that is... Jesus. All our family differences, so to speak, will be as inconsequential as children comparing shoes and arguing over whose is best in a schoolyard.

This concept is hard for me to put into words. It is more "felt" and "experienced" or "known" than it is matter of empirical logic of the human mind that can be dissected and examined. To put on the mind of Christ, the glorified Christ, and abide in such a reality while on earth would be the greatest of spiritual illuminations and would cause all difference within to be viewed from an eternal perspective.

But the carnal mind, the soulish mind, the flesh, the ego, desires ascendency, dominance, and demands answers, and then requires and demands compliance to self-conceived, and even self-contrived, answers that are mere illusions that gratify our innate spiritual pride... to the hurt and division of the body.

If we are one spirit with the Lord (I Corinthians 6:17), then we are one spirit with one another. If we are all branches of the True Vine, then we are living extensions of the a single organism, the body, the bride of Christ. And so, you are an extension of Christ, as am I... and we are thus living extensions of one another. Spiritually speaking, you are me... and I am you... and we are Him... and He is us. There is no separation. Separation is a result of the failed perception of the carnal mind. For we all have HIS Spirit abiding in us, and HE is "our" very life. We are one in Him, even as He is one in the Father. And thus we begin to unveil the surface of the awesome spiritual reality that Christ spoke of when He said...

John 14:20 (ESV)
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Oneness truth, or doctrine, ceases to be merely a Christology... but becomes an ontological soteriologic reality.

And we realize the depth of Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus. Not only in the sense of what we would typically call the Second Coming... but also in the sense of He being made manifest in us, as we are conformed into His very image and likeness through our union with Him by virtue of His abiding Holy Spirit in us.

And so... truth becomes an elevated concept beyond our human perceptions and primitive self-conceived conclusions that is experienced and discerned through the Holy Spirit. And the truth becomes something more akin to what is realized and heard in the purity of a baby's cry... or the unintelligible groaning of divine utterance.

Truth is... Jesus.

Let us abide in the truth undefinable. Let us abide in the one beyond all definition. Let us abide in... Jesus. Let us abide in... His love.

And then "truth" shall truly be known.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I agree!

We should call it the "To whom much is given, much is required" doctrine.

It seems to me that we are really big on holding everyone to the same exact, exacting standards. We are pretty sure that this comes from the Bible.

What do most, if not all, standards have in common? Make-up, beards, jewelry, pants for women, suits on the platform, no television, etc.. All of these are things that are visual. They do not require the Spiritual gift of discernment to enforce. Anybody can determine by looking, whether or not you are compliant.

In other words, they are based in legalism. Legalism is not conducive to walking in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit may produce the results that legalism seeks, but it will never lead to an increase in our inward holiness. It just doesn't work that way. Inward holiness will lead to modest dress, modest dress does not lead to inward holiness. If it does the Muslims have the answers. They enforce modest dress through legalism. Are they more holy than Apostolics? They are certainly dressed more modestly!

The challenge for pastors and for everyone is to teach that the heart must be changed. If the heart is not turned to God, all of the standards in all of the laws (Mosaic, Sharia, etc.) will not make any difference.

The belief that we are all held to the same standard is a similar doctrine. It seems so fair. Everyone is required to produce the same fruit. All are required to give the same amount (percentage wise). All are required to obey the same laws. Justice is blind. It seems so right. But it is not.

It is not biblical. It is not apostolic. To whom much is given, much is required. By default, to whom less is given, less is required.

It is more blessed to give than to receive. I say that both are blessed, but it is for sure that they are not blessed the same amount. Some are given to, FROM the church. In the New Testament the Greek widows complained because they were not given their share. The apostles were quick to respond to rectify the situation. Today in our churches there is a doctrine that everyone must give ten percent. We ignore that in the New Testament church some were taking from the church. Are you a widow? Sorry. Be sure to tithe. It is necessary for salvation! According to the apostles? No, according to the church.

We will continue to hold everyone to the very same standard no doubt. It is the easy way out. It is NOT scriptural, but who cares about that really?

Rom.14
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

We may declare that it is impossible for someone to go to heaven wearing a beard, or not wearing a beard, or that they cannot go to heaven wearing jewelry. We may underestimate God's ability to help them stand.

Is it the light doctrine?

Is it the "To whom much is given, much is required" doctrine"?

I'm not sure what to call it.

It may be the "Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling" doctrine.

It could be the "Let every man be convinced in his own mind" doctrine.

Whichever we call it, it is safe to say that there is a pretty solid case to be made with circumstantial evidence from the Bible. And it is safe to say that it is apostolic.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I know what I teach and believe and I am confident in the truth I have. I am also confident that God has people outside of Apostolic circles. I don't know how and I won't even try to explain because He is God and I am His son and servant. It is what I believe and if I am wrong, it doesn't change my beliefs and practices. If I am right, PRAISE JESUS!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

We've debated this before. Paul is simply admonishing the church there to not buy into the hype that Christ's return was "at hand."

Context matters. You're twisting the passage to try and frame your eschatology belief into it, while damning the rest of us who don't agree with your views.

As far as Trinnies go -- they reject the Oneness of God. The literal foundational belief is there is one God. So to claim trinnies and people who believe in some eschatological view other than yours is just ridiculous and absurd.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Basically. And the fire is hotter for those who don't grow beards. :lol

Mike doesn't understand eschatology isn't a salvific doctrine. He literally believes God will condemn to hell the millions of spirit-filled believers who either haven't made up their mind on eschatology, are believing the wrong eschatological view (per himself) or are like me and don't care to take a position because all which matters is that we believe God is coming again and there will be a day of judgment. Whether I believe in historicism, futurism, dispensationism or preterism doesn't matter as long as I believe in and look for His return.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Oh? Thats the entire foundation?

Not according to Paul.

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2

He says theres more to it. Thats what I am saying. It is being promoted on the forum that its more important to do "standards" ie...shave beards, than to believe in the truth of the coming of Christ.

I am not the one who calls the pre tribs and the prets deceivers. No. It is the Apostle.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

He is not. #StopIt

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

To me this is a shocking admission that truth is not important among many(not all) Apostolics. Im pointing out the hypocrisy in this Apostolic "light" doctrine.

Dave mocks the fact God WOULD send millions of Spirit filled believers to Hell over the second coming truth. Even tho Paul specifies them as "deceivers".

Yet he does not even blink an eye to say that God WOULD send millions of Spirit filled believers to Hell because they have not made up their mind or taken a position or been wrong on the Godhead!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Which is the exact reason why I do not agree with you or Dave.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

To the Jews, yes. The Mezuzah was affixed to their doorposts. They were taught and instructed to teach, from when they rose up to when they laid down - "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one" is the beginning of that inscription.

So, yes, it was their foundation.

But if you want to argue semantics, it's ONE of the foundational beliefs. :smack

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

There's no way Paul wrote Hebrews

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

So now salvation is only offered to scholars, in some type of who wants to be a millionaire type game? A person has to be some great mind who could win Jeopardy? Eschatology, is the Acts 2:38 plan of salvation no one ever expressly mentioned? Really bro, you've gotta be kidding me!

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Now you're just making stuff up.

Here's what I actually posted:

"He literally believes God will condemn to hell the millions of spirit-filled believers who either haven't made up their mind on eschatology, are believing the wrong eschatological view (per himself) or are like me and don't care to take a position because all which matters is that we believe God is coming again and there will be a day of judgment. Whether I believe in historicism, futurism, dispensationism or preterism doesn't matter as long as I believe in and look for His return."

Now show me where the word "Godhead" is in that quote.

:smack

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Mike made that up. I did not post any such thing.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

My father has believed to this day in dispensation eschatology.

Mike claims my father is going to hell over that.

And not only my father, but almost every dear elder I know who has passed, Mike has claimed they will be judged and condemned to hell.

So I take it a bit personally that he not only condemns them to hell, but compares them to trinnies.

Bless his heart. /sarc

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

I wonder if anyone is going to bother producing the Scriptures that prove "wrong eschatology has no effect on salvation"?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Obviously its note a quote. It is your position tho is it not? If it is not you will have my apology.

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

So you also believe that if a person believes in dispensation eschatology, they're lost?

Where's your scripture for that?

Re: The Apostolic Light Doctrine
 

Oh? How do you know? Who wrote it then?