Do we have to pay tithes?
 

I was listening to this, it's good. Just had a conversation with some individuals yesterday. He explains more than just about tithes, but this was a good message! I encourage you to listen to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWJkhOd4olI

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

One Evangelist I heard said if you miss ONE PENNY of your tithes you will not enter Heaven.

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No, we do not.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

someone posted something recently that I thought made sense, but I can't find their post now.

it was to the effect that there are some people who will choose house church and some people who will choose traditional church and if you choose to be a part of the latter, then you should help to support it.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Supporting the work of God, house church or conventional church, is needed.

As to the question asked in the original post, no, there is no such system called "tithing" for the New Testament church. It's a fairy tale.

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It didn't take you long to get into research mode, did it? That is highly commendable, by the way.

I think before you go too far, it is important to define tithes biblically. A start would be:

What was tithed?

Who tithed?

Who received tithes?

What was done with the tithe?

How many tithes were there?

What was the source of the tithe?

What about the tithe of Melchisedec?

If you search the scripture, and get the literal true answers to these questions, and possibly some more, this is by no means an exhaustive list, you will be way ahead of the average Bible scholar in general knowledge of the Bible. The incredible thing is that you will begin to see and understand things that you never have. Studying and understanding the tithe is a great portal into learning the Bible, especially the Old Testament.

After you answer all of the above questions, with true, literal Bible answers, apply the same questions to the same subject today. You may be really surprised where the truth leads.

I believe I have heard the sermon you posted above. If I have not, I have at least heard a sermon from Brother Riggen on tithes. The one I listened to was full of egregious error. There was much that he said that was simply untrue, however he did a fine job of articulating false doctrine. He sets out to prove a point with scripture, and he is not ashamed to twist scripture to do so. In this wise he is no different than most preachers of almost every denomination. The god of mammon is alive and well.

May God bless your studies.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Well said.

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I remember seeing that too. I can almost remember who posted it. He talked about three levels of Christians. As you said it does make sense, however I don't think it is in harmony with the Bible.

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Well if your not going to listen to it then, I'll leave it there. How am I supposed to make you believe fat meat is greasy when you don't believe it is? I just simply posted it, because it was good. But the greatest thing he said "if you can't trust the man of God with your money, then why on Earth would you trust him with your soul?" I think that's a good principal for all you have problem with pastoral authority. Because of past hurts or mistrust, or whatever. Find one who you can trust with your money. If you cant, well you've found what your God is truthfully. And as you said "the god of Mammon is alive and well."

Btw, Brother Riggen is a sincere man of God. You should "keep your mouth off God's anointed", at least that's what my Bible says. But with that im finished.

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what about the following passage, it seems to me that we should support the ministry

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That's a cute quote, but doesn't change the fact that there is no such requirement as the 10% tithe.

Not all of the Israelites were required to tithe, most did not.

Jesus is never mentioned as paying a tithe or instructing his disciples to pay a tithe.

Malachi is misused and twisted to beat people and guilt them into paying tithes.

No, it doesn't.

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I didn't say that I was not going to listen to it, I will. I am pretty sure I've heard it before, that is what I said.

Believe it or not, I've heard this statement before, many times. It is most likely not original to Brother Riggens. It sounds pretty good, but the fact is I don't trust any man with my soul, nor am I supposed to. The Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It doesn't say find a pastor and trust him with your soul, or your money. If this is truly the "best thing he said", he should have quoted more scripture, because anytime God speaks, it is superior to man-speak, and that cute phrase is not in the Bible.

I have asked you to provide scripture for all of this supposed authority, and you talk about pastors being angels. Even if that were true, it still doesn't reconcile with "Christ being the head of every man". If Christ is the head of every individual man, how does the pastor have this authority? I don't believe you have ever addressed this.

You are speculating here. You can't possibly believe, that I believe, what I believe, because of studying the Bible. There are pastors that can be trusted with money, there are Muslims that can be trusted with money. There are also pastors that can't be trusted with money. Have you ever heard of a pastor stealing money from a church? We are supposed to be led by the Spirit. The Spirit may choose to speak to us directly, through an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, a burning bush, an ass, or even a pastor. The important thing is to recognize the voice.


I believe you, that he is sincere. I wish that he weren't, because he is sincerely wrong. Do you doubt that I am sincere? Yet you obviously believe I am wrong. See how that works? The test should not be whether we are sincere, it should be whether what we say is true.


Please post scripture that says this, and then provide context for what it means. It doesn't mean only pastors, the "TOUCH not my anointed" is referring to the general population of Israel. Look it up.

Now, this is what really bothers me. You start a thread on tithing, as many have done before, and if it doesn't affirm what you already believe, you throw a fit and quit. Please, don't quit.

You are on the brink of learning some very important biblical information. If I have offended you, or I should say that since I have obviously offended you, please accept my most sincere apologies. If I have put a stumbling block in front of you, that troubles me deeply. I feel strongly about the truth, and especially so about the truth of tithing. Should I just allow you to continue to believe false doctrine? Is that in any way condoned by scripture?

Let's discuss. Let's study. Let's quote scripture. Let's learn together. Please.

On another note, I would be entirely willing to debate Brother Riggen on tithes on our debate forum here. I seriously doubt that he will do so. It is much easier to deliver a sermon to sheep, than it is to parry and thrust in a debate forum where a man is facing you with the two-edged sword that is sharp enough to divide joint from marrow, and has some knowledge and skill in how to implement it.

Please come back. I'll try to play nice.

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Exactly.

n david, I didn't plagiarize you on the cute quote part in bold above. I had already typed it before I saw what you said. Obviously I agree with this though.

Ditto. No it doesn't.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

I'm waiting to hear your views of Elder Riggen's teaching.

Please listen to the sermon carefully and get back to us. :)

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I will try EB. I did listen to the beginning of the audio, and it is the message that I thought it was. I have listened to it before. Just going from memory, he does a masterful job of fabricating reasons that we should follow this particular law.

I've probably said too much, without reviewing it first. Can you explain to me how to mark certain time frames in the message where it shows up on the forum? It will take some time, but I will try to get it done. I would rather him to come on here and debate the scripture, but that probably won't happen.

I regret that I seem to have offended 1ofthechosen. I wasn't being mean, but I was blunt. I certainly understand that it is a controversial issue.

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As you listen you will at times take your cursor and place it on the line where you can see seconds counted. Click with the cursor on the video itself to stop it, rewind, or move forward. You will see how many minutes and seconds you went forward or backward. Record the time 1:20, 4:60, whatever and note what we should be looking for. As you refresh your memory on what was taught by Elder Riggen.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Thanks. Will do.

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1 Chronicles 16:22 and you are the one twisting the Malachi scripture talking about the context comes from 2:1. It switches after 3:5 when God says "saith the Lord of hosts. (6) for I am the Lord I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

Even my Bible says the next verse is the beginning of a new idea there is a context mark on verse 7. At that point it turned, He was talking to all and everyone in Israel.

And why did Abraham give Tithe to Melchizedek? That was before the law? God calls the it His holy tithe! What is holy to God that ceases to be holy? If you can answer that, then you are calling God a liar in what He says in Malachi 3:6. "For I am the Lord, I change not." Are you saying He changes?

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1 Chronicles 16:22 "Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." It is talking about all Israel, but Brother Riggen has been anointed to speak His word all over this world! Not to say your not anointed. But you are saying he has a love for money. When you are looking for a excuse in anyway you can to not pay 10%. It's robbing God then, it still is! That's comes out of love for money. Even if you say it's in the name of truth! Especially when you cant even remotely give scripture on the contrary towards it. I don't owe you any scripture but you do owe me. And refutal saying that doesn't fit here won't work. Because you know it does. You just don't want to do it. Just be honest!

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That verse does not say:

#StopIt

Again, Malachi 3 is about the events of Nehemiah 13. God was speaking to the priests. He was not speaking to the general population of Israel because the generation population of Israel largely did not pay a 10% tithe.

Moses' law was very specific about who was required to give a tithe. Most of Israel did not.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Well this is about as productive as the past 100 threads on tithes . . .

:lol

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

In Deuteronomy 14:22 it says plainly "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year." With there being 3 types of tithes : The tithe to the priest, The Feast tithe, and the Poor tithe which the last 2 are not relevant to us this day.

As God Himself says in Numbers 18:21,24 "And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance." Now we know that is old testament, so wasn't this part of the law fufilled? Well in the New Testament the Apostle Paul let's you know how it should be in 1 Corinthians 9:1-14 "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? [2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. [3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, [4] Have we not power to eat and to drink? [5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? [6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? [7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? [8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? [9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. [11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. [13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

So apparently he goes back to the law saying "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." So who was it written for? Those who labor in the gospel!

Ndavid is saying it's only for ranchers and all this craziness, but Deuteronomy 14:22 says different it says "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase." Now I shortened that scripture because Leviticus 27:30-32 says the same thing but keep in mind what I just said. Now it says "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord. [31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. [32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord."

Now not only is it about "all of the tithe of the land, seed, or of the fruit of it", it also covers "tithe of the herd". If we go back to Cain Abel what were they? One was a tiller of the ground, and one a keeper of the flock. Letting you know the tithe encompassed all, everything! There was no exemptions! Now in Malachi 3:8-8 God makes it clear "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." You can say this is only talking about the Priests which that's crazy because a brand new thought comes in verse 7, of verse 3 of Malachi. And it says plainly "[B]ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." There goes N David's theory that its only the priests robbing God. Because it says plainly "even this whole nation"! I don't know about you last time I checked "whole" means "everyone."

When God lays something down as robbery and stealing, it's forever robbery and stealing. Because just like Brother Riggen said "no one can say we don't have to follow the 10 commandments." Matter of factly we can go to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says plainly "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." And not paying your tithes is not only stealing being a thief, it's extortion, and idolatry! So that's 3 areas not just one, so can you inherit the kingdom of God?

The moral law never changes bro. The ten commandments are against it, He says plainly "thou shalt not steal." He calls the tithe "Holy to the Lord", anything that's Holy then is holy now. Or you are calling God a liar because Malachi 3:6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not."Tithes is part of the moral law it doesn't go away! No ifs ands or buts. I'll leave it at that!

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Deal with it, bub.

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Do you pay tithes? No one said God didn't fufill His covenant because abolish is a bad word. But tithes and offerings are His model forever for the ministry. I can't believe y'all think that God instituted a government that wouldn't be self sufficient! With a system in place. Let me ask you a question, if not the way He prescribed in scripture, how should it be? I would much rather use God's plan, He came up with, then some Purpose Driven Church plan. But that's me personally. I believe He has made it clear, how He wants its carried out. Because where have you seen Him say different? Just one scripture, and I'll go with it.

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The OT was easy.
Just pay the 10% and various offerings and you were ok.
Now, everything we own belongs to God and was given to us by God to use for his kingdom.
When you realize that, you won't worry about tithes.

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I'll go with that! But not less than the OT!

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Brother, I'm going to do my best to be kind. If God changeth not, and the tithe is holy, and you by default believe that the tithe changeth not, why are we tithing money today?

Money was not ever tithed even once in the Bible. Think about it. You said that they didn't have money in the Bible. They did. I'm not trying to be ugly and insulting. I'm trying to teach you. Think about this example. You thought you knew, but you were wrong. This scenario will replay itself time after time as you learn the truth about tithing. You can accept it or reject it. It doesn't change the truth. I don't really blame you. You've been taught something that is simply not true, by someone who was taught something that simply was not true.

You want to give a tenth, and you feel that the Lord will bless you. Go ahead and do what you feel to do, but don't believe a lie. That is never condoned in the scripture. Please don't reject the truth.

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Look at Leviticus 27:1-8 show that the animals were as good as money. They couldve been sold.

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I've shown many scriptures and proofs, you have yet to state even 1 to show your stance. Or better yet, where it is endorsed at all in the Bible OT or NT.

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The problem is this, when people read the scriptures they just literally read. No, real deciphering is ever done, or taking into account that while God doesn't change our times sure do. Therefore not one Judean or Israeli ever handled paper money. No one ever wrote out a check B.C. or A.D.. Coins were minted by different ruling bodies, but for the most part barter was the only way to buy or sell. Animals weren't always sold for money, they were traded for things you might need. If you were by a city, or within a kingdom then "pieces" of silver, gold, bronze, or iron were minted then used to "barter." These people were an agrarian society, to think that a farmer, or goat herder always had access to gold and silver is ludacris. The temple had money changers to change Roman coins to non-Roman coins. These money changers changed your money for temple taxes, buying sacrificial livestock.

If you were Diaspora coming in from Egypt no one would dream that you would of dragged a cow all the way from Alexandra. Therefore you purchased your religious supplies once you reached your destination being Jerusalem.

The no tithers sometimes only see the Levitical tithes, really don't bother with Cain and Abel because the majority of them see Cain being rejected because he didn't bring a lamb. Well, he couldn't bring a lamb, because that wasn't his vocation. He was a tiller of the ground and therefore he brought that which he produced. Abraham was a warrior, and since he won in battle he brought the pagan king priest Melchizedek the spoils of war.

Everyone who is arguing with you don't have a problem with giving offerings to the ministry. They just don't want to call it "tithing."

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Brother, these were not animals. They were people. They were people who had made vows. People were not tithed.

(Just a caveat. When Abram tithed to Melchisedec, it seems likely that people may have been tithed.)

Remember what I said. The further you go down the road of learning the truth about tithes, the more this will happen. Things that you assumed to be true, will prove to be untrue. Expect it. Be brave. It is rewarding, but it can be scary.

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Thank you EB. That is a pretty balanced assessment of the situation. I may not agree completely, but I generally agree with you.

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If you have the time please give us a detailed assessment of the Elder Riggen video. It would be greatly appreciated and you will be able to show us your new found posting skill set. :thumbsup

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Ok makes sense. Yea it's as good as money. That's just basically what I've been saying all along.

Re: Do we have to pay tithes?
 

Bible, King James Version

Here's your one scripture.


2Cor.9
[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

No man knows better than himself what he can afford to give. If he has an honest heart, he will give, if he can afford to. If his heart is not honest, then he needs Jesus. Think about it, sometimes the man who could give, may no longer be able to afford to give, he may in fact be in severe need of someone giving to him. That is what was happening in the instance above. This collection that Paul was referring to was for the poor saints of Jerusalem. It wasn't for pastors only, in fact pastors are never mentioned. The UPC articles of faith, as well as the ALJC hold this up for an example of tithing IIRC.

This is from UPCI Articles of Faith

TITHING
We believe tithing is God’s financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Moses’ law enjoined it, and Israel practiced it when she was right with God; Jesus indorsed it (Matt. 23:23); and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, viz., tithes and offerings. (Read Mall 3).

It is indeed peculiar that Paul, who was very well educated in the law, did not simply say to pay your tithes.

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There is one serious flaw in what you've been saying all along. It was not lawful to sell an animal that was tithed, unless it was an unclean animal.

Remember what I said. Almost everything that you believe you know about tithing will prove to be untrue. This is yet another of those things.

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I plan to do so. I don't want to make myself a liar by saying when. If I recall correctly that message is about two hours, so it will take some time. Should I make a separate thread for it? Or post it on here? I want to respect the efforts of 1ofthechosen.

What do you all think?

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All I'm saying is what EB said. Not everybody had money, but everyone received increase. Whatever your increase was as Deuteronomy 14:22 said "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year."

Or as Leviticus 27:30-32 "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord. [31] And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. [32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, [I]the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord."

Because fact is bro, a tenth of everything still to this day should be holy to the Lord! That is a principal He has given that should never change. It's not meant to just be thrown out or how could He say in Malachi 3:8-9 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." Just deal with the parts I underlined and bolded, if that was meant to just be the priests. The text says different.

Whatever was theft and robbing God then is still robbing God when the "tenth is to be holy unto the Lord."

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I was saying it's as good as money. It can be bartered. Money or whether I trade cattle I tithed money cause it has monetary value it's increase. Simple and plain. And Paul was talking above of offerings. And the UPCi things says exactly what I said.