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-   -   I John 5:8? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52321)

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 07:50 AM
I John 5:8?
 
The Interlinear:

"the Spirit and the water and the blood also these three in one are" I John 5:8

Some say that "These three are one" was added and not original to the text.

If a person were reading the New International Version, this is what they would see:

"the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (NIV)


Comments?

Amanah 05-17-2018 08:06 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Good topic, looking forward to reading the replies

Apostolic1ness 05-17-2018 08:53 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531027)
The Interlinear:

"the Spirit and the water and the blood also these three in one are" I John 5:8

Some say that "These three are one" was added and not original to the text.

If a person were reading the New International Version, this is what they would see:

"the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (NIV)


Comments?
blessed holy trinity

JK

Michael The Disciple 05-17-2018 10:21 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
That verse was the first verse shown to me used to prove Oneness doctrine. These three ARE one, not agree in one.

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 10:49 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1531073)
That verse was the first verse shown to me used to prove Oneness doctrine. These three ARE one, not agree in one.
That is awesome! In your studies, do you have any reference or documentation on how this verse came to be viewed and written both ways, ie, Oneness and Trinitarian?

Have you taught a lesson surrounding this passage?

1ofthechosen 05-17-2018 11:03 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531074)
That is awesome! In your studies, do you have any reference or documentation on how this verse came to be viewed and written both ways, ie, Oneness and Trinitarian?

Have you taught a lesson surrounding this passage?
I see those as the witness in the earth As John 3:5 says the new birth would be, water and Spirit. While people fight over where is the blood applied, this scripture shows to me where it is upon the earth. That if you don't have all 3 witnessed the water and the Spirit you have not the blood. Which there's so many people that say oh well you just have to have the Spirit, or you just need to be baptized. But this scripture says that all 3 agree in one. You have to have all 3 or no new birth.

I see some sources just say 1 John 5:7 was added while others 5:8 also. Thats funny Brother Michael said it was one of the first scriptures shown to him to explain the oneness. For me it was a great revelation on salvation and the new birth, because they are the witness of whether your saved or not.

Esaias 05-17-2018 11:45 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531027)
The Interlinear:

"the Spirit and the water and the blood also these three in one are" I John 5:8

Some say that "These three are one" was added and not original to the text.

If a person were reading the New International Version, this is what they would see:

"the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (NIV)


Comments?
The last time I used an NIV was as a doorstop.

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 12:45 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen (Post 1531079)
I see those as the witness in the earth As John 3:5 says the new birth would be, water and Spirit. While people fight over where is the blood applied, this scripture shows to me where it is upon the earth. That if you don't have all 3 witnessed the water and the Spirit you have not the blood. Which there's so many people that say oh well you just have to have the Spirit, or you just need to be baptized. But this scripture says that all 3 agree in one. You have to have all 3 or no new birth.

I see some sources just say 1 John 5:7 was added while others 5:8 also. Thats funny Brother Michael said it was one of the first scriptures shown to him to explain the oneness. For me it was a great revelation on salvation and the new birth, because they are the witness of whether your saved or not.
:thumbsup

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 12:45 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1531100)
The last time I used an NIV was as a doorstop.
Lol! What is your opinion on the NLT?

Evang.Benincasa 05-17-2018 12:59 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531122)
Lol! What is your opinion on the NLT?
I like how it translates Genesis 3:16 :couch

houston 05-17-2018 02:02 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531127)
I like how it translates Genesis 3:16 :couch
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.


:happydance

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 02:20 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531127)
I like how it translates Genesis 3:16 :couch
Interesting that it is the scripture that you centered in.

Evang.Benincasa 05-17-2018 02:35 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531142)
Interesting that it is the scripture that you centered in.
Had a sister from another church family heard that one of our elders preached from it. She made a special trip to that Sunday night service with notebook and pen to ask questions. Needless to say elder answer all questions, neatly, and in order. But, that is another thread for another time. :D

Apostolic1ness 05-17-2018 02:43 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by houston (Post 1531139)
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you.


:happydance
now that explains a lot!

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 02:46 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531143)
Had a sister from another church family heard that one of our elders preached from it. She made a special trip to that Sunday night service with notebook and pen to ask questions. Needless to say elder answer all questions, neatly, and in order. But, that is another thread for another time. :D
So, I have a friend who really likes the NLT. I like it okay, but I don’t love it. What is your opinion?

houston 05-17-2018 02:56 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531146)
So, I have a friend who really likes the NLT. I like it okay, but I don’t love it. What is your opinion?
I love the gospels and most of the OT in the NLT.

Evang.Benincasa 05-17-2018 03:07 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531146)
So, I have a friend who really likes the NLT. I like it okay, but I don’t love it. What is your opinion?
I have people in the church family and the Bible studies who use all different translations in different languages. The NLT is ok, but some passages in the NIV I like as well. I told my wife to read the ESV, but she reads the original Greek, so she is constantly checking back and forth. I have read almost 30 different English translations, some from mild to wild. But, I still use a KJV, because It and the ASV were the two translations I know the best. But my opinion (its only my opinion) is to use the one which is best for your understanding. 17th century English is an issue for a lot of people. But, use a lexicon, Greek, and Hebrew dictionaries when you have a question. I understand there are those who are death on Concordances or Lexicons, but for a mature sister as yourself, you should have no problem. There are others who I would hope they would find a good teacher to help them before they pick up an English dictionary let alone a Greek or Latin one.

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 03:25 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531154)
I have people in the church family and the Bible studies who use all different translations in different languages. The NLT is ok, but some passages in the NIV I like as well. I told my wife to read the ESV, but she reads the original Greek, so she is constantly checking back and forth. I have read almost 30 different English translations, some from mild to wild. But, I still use a KJV, because It and the ASV were the two translations I know the best. But my opinion (its only my opinion) is to use the one which is best for your understanding. 17th century English is an issue for a lot of people. But, use a lexicon, Greek, and Hebrew dictionaries when you have a question. I understand there are those who are death on Concordances or Lexicons, but for a mature sister as yourself, you should have no problem. There are others who I would hope they would find a good teacher to help them before they pick up an English dictionary let alone a Greek or Latin one.
Thanks. I read the KJV, because I know it best as well. I read it alongside another translation of choice on Bible Gateway - side by side. I look at the KJV as providing trigger/familiar words or phrases that I can remember reading elsewhere in the Bible. Other translations don’t give me that.

What is your opinion of Thayers? I read that it uses the Koine Greek which is newer Greek and not as reliable. I may have that wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 03:28 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by houston (Post 1531150)
I love the gospels and most of the OT in the NLT.
I like it okay. I don’t think I found one that I love. I like reading two at the same time, making comparisons. Two books I have never really enjoyed reading until just recently is I and II Corinthians.

Evang.Benincasa 05-17-2018 03:40 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531157)
Thanks. I read the KJV, because I know it best as well. I read it alongside another translation of choice on Bible Gateway - side by side. I look at the KJV as providing trigger/familiar words or phrases that I can remember reading elsewhere in the Bible. Other translations don’t give me that.

What is your opinion of Thayers? I read that it uses the Koine Greek which is newer Greek and not as reliable. I may have that wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.
Koine Greek is common Greek used by us simple folk. Like Aramaic was the language used by your common everyday Joe walking around Judea. Vulgar Latin is what is used in the Latin VULGATE. So the vulgar tongue of the New Testament is Koine, meaning common. My rule is don't use only one dictionary, but since you are blessed with the Internet, use many. Especially ones that give you references on how the ancient Greeks used the same words. The Bible language isn't confined to the Bible, but was used by everyone during the time of Christ. Everyone understood each other during their time and culture. We of the 21st century haven't a clue to why Paul's meeting on the Areopagus is so important to the story of Acts. Sadly individuals spend more time making things up to fit the 21st century that they lose the true meanings of what is actually being said to US.

Pressing-On 05-17-2018 05:20 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531161)
Koine Greek is common Greek used by us simple folk. Like Aramaic was the language used by your common everyday Joe walking around Judea. Vulgar Latin is what is used in the Latin VULGATE. So the vulgar tongue of the New Testament is Koine, meaning common. My rule is don't use only one dictionary, but since you are blessed with the Internet, use many. Especially ones that give you references on how the ancient Greeks used the same words. The Bible language isn't confined to the Bible, but was used by everyone during the time of Christ. Everyone understood each other during their time and culture. We of the 21st century haven't a clue to why Paul's meeting on the Areopagus is so important to the story of Acts. Sadly individuals spend more time making things up to fit the 21st century that they lose the true meanings of what is actually being said to US.
Thanks! :thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa 05-17-2018 05:39 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531202)
Thanks! :thumbsup
Have fun

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

Scott Pitta 05-18-2018 03:36 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Thayer's is hopelessly outdated.

Pick up a Walter Bauer lexicon. It is the only one worth using.

Esaias 05-18-2018 03:53 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531243)
Thayer's is hopelessly outdated.
Please demonstrate that with examples.

Scott Pitta 05-18-2018 07:30 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Our understanding of Koine Greek has rather expanded since Thayer put pen to paper. This included a better understanding of Koine grammar, word use, and available literature.

I do not give examples prior to coffee intake.

Pressing-On 05-18-2018 08:06 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531203)
Thanks! :thumbsup

Pressing-On 05-18-2018 08:06 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531243)
Thayer's is hopelessly outdated.

Pick up a Walter Bauer lexicon. It is the only one worth using.
Thanks! :thumbsup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531261)
Our understanding of Koine Greek has rather expanded since Thayer put pen to paper. This included a better understanding of Koine grammar, word use, and available literature.

I do not give examples prior to coffee intake.
I hear ya! LOL!

Evang.Benincasa 05-19-2018 12:33 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531261)
I do not give examples prior to coffee intake.
Isn't that convenient.

Scott Pitta 05-19-2018 06:06 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
:)

Pressing-On 05-19-2018 11:00 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531341)
:)
How long does your intake last? Waiting... :D

Scott Pitta 05-19-2018 11:11 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Our understanding of Koine Greek has rather expanded since Thayer put pen to paper. This included a better understanding of Koine grammar, word use, and available literature.

That is what my Greek professor told us right before she told us to bite the bullet and purchase the Walter Bauer lexicon.

Buy a used one for nearly the same price as a new Thayer's. But be warned: it is not keyed to a Strong's concordance. One must actually be able to read Greek to use it.

Pressing-On 05-20-2018 03:55 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531353)
Our understanding of Koine Greek has rather expanded since Thayer put pen to paper. This included a better understanding of Koine grammar, word use, and available literature.

That is what my Greek professor told us right before she told us to bite the bullet and purchase the Walter Bauer lexicon.

Buy a used one for nearly the same price as a new Thayer's. But be warned: it is not keyed to a Strong's concordance. One must actually be able to read Greek to use it.
So, putting this into perspective. I don't speak or read Greek.

Going out on a limb, but I doubt the larger population of the Christian world does either.

We have the printed Word - lots of translations.

Does NOT speaking or reading Greek or Hebrew, for that matter, change anything that we already know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and does NOT speaking or reading Greek or Hebrew jeopardize our salvation in any way?

Evang.Benincasa 05-20-2018 04:42 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531391)
So, putting this into perspective. I don't speak or read Greek.

Going out on a limb, but I doubt the larger population of the Christian world does either.

We have the printed Word - lots of translations.

Does NOT speaking or reading Greek or Hebrew, for that matter, change anything that we already know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and does NOT speaking or reading Greek or Hebrew jeopardize our salvation in any way?
A old Abuelita who was with Brother Morley, Sister Sallie Lemons (Brother Morley's wife, a Brother Bill Drost when they were in Colombia. Could only read the scripture in Spanish, no Greek, no Hebrew, no Aramaic. Just Spanish. She knew the Word backward and forward. Jesus One God, Jesus Name Baptism, Holiness unto the Lord, and the power of the Holy Ghost infilling with speaking in other tongues all with book, chapter, and verse.
No one has to be a Greek scholar to get some Jesus name understanding. You just need the Holy Ghost desire to seek the truth not matter what the cost. I was at Abuelita's bedside when she passed on, and her grandson and myself prayed with her while she spoke in tongues and magnified the Lord in Jesus name as she passed on.

Scott Pitta 05-20-2018 06:59 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
My only point is the Bauer lexicon is not keyed to s Strong's concordance. So if you cannot read Greek, it would be difficult to use.

As far as faith is concerned, one language is good enough.

Esaias 05-20-2018 09:33 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1531244)
Please demonstrate that with examples.
I guess you are fasting from coffee?

:heeheehee

peter83 05-21-2018 10:53 AM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1531027)
The Interlinear:

"the Spirit and the water and the blood also these three in one are" I John 5:8

Some say that "These three are one" was added and not original to the text.

If a person were reading the New International Version, this is what they would see:

"the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (NIV)


Comments?
On earth the Spirit , the water (propably the baptism) and the blood of Jesus (his life,blood=life) give testimony for the Son of God.
Water=His birth (others say is the baptism that saves us and give us testimony of remission)
Blood=His Death. His blood is his life on earth (the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground)
Spirit=the Holy Spirit that God send to witness of the alive Son of God.(His Spirit is here.)

Now the strange thing is the grammatical order :
"The spirit the water and the blood also these three in one are"
Some people claim the because the "these" is on masculine does not make sense so the text could also include the "three that bear record in heaves".
But otherwise i dont think something serious about. :)

Esaias 05-21-2018 01:43 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 (Post 1531452)
On earth the Spirit , the water (propably the baptism) and the blood of Jesus (his life,blood=life) give testimony for the Son of God.
Water=His birth (others say is the baptism that saves us and give us testimony of remission)
Blood=His Death. His blood is his life on earth (the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground)
Spirit=the Holy Spirit that God send to witness of the alive Son of God.(His Spirit is here.)

Now the strange thing is the grammatical order :
"The spirit the water and the blood also these three in one are"
Some people claim the because the "these" is on masculine does not make sense so the text could also include the "three that bear record in heaves".
But otherwise i dont think something serious about. :)
Does it not mean "these three are into the one", as in these three things point to the same thing, or belong to the same thing?
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(1 John 5:6-10)
Seems to be saying that the water, Spirit, and the blood are the witness of God that He has testified of His Son, and that all true Christians have that witness in themselves. Meaning, all true Christians have the water, Spirit, and the blood in their lives. And from other Scriptures, this appears to be referring to water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (by His blood), and receiving the Holy Spirit.

1ofthechosen 05-21-2018 01:49 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1531508)
Does it not mean "these three are into the one", as in these three things point to the same thing, or belong to the same thing?
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(1 John 5:6-10)
Seems to be saying that the water, Spirit, and the blood are the witness of God that He has testified of His Son, and that all true Christians have that witness in themselves. Meaning, all true Christians have the water, Spirit, and the blood in their lives. And from other Scriptures, this appears to be referring to water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (by His blood), and receiving the Holy Spirit.
That's the way I see it. And to tell you the truth I got a strong revelation off 1 John 5:8. It showed me where the blood is applied, as people argue over this all the time. Without being born of water, and Spirit there is no blood. But these three agree in one. So someone can say they are saved, but you don't have to wonder. There is 3 witnesses upon this Earth that agree in one, if any is missing then they are not saved. No ifs ands or buts...

I got a revelation of that God allowed that verse to give you Spiritual discernment. But did they add that, because 1 John 5:7 seems totally out of place?

Pressing-On 05-21-2018 07:01 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1531508)
Does it not mean "these three are into the one", as in these three things point to the same thing, or belong to the same thing?
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(1 John 5:6-10)
Seems to be saying that the water, Spirit, and the blood are the witness of God that He has testified of His Son, and that all true Christians have that witness in themselves. Meaning, all true Christians have the water, Spirit, and the blood in their lives. And from other Scriptures, this appears to be referring to water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (by His blood), and receiving the Holy Spirit.
The CEV places the water and blood coming from Jesus' side:

"Water and blood came out from the side of Jesus Christ. It wasn't just water, but water and blood. The Spirit tells about this, because the Spirit is truthful."

What is the passage actually saying when it says, "he that came by..."

Pressing-On 05-21-2018 07:03 PM
Re: I John 5:8?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1531394)
A old Abuelita who was with Brother Morley, Sister Sallie Lemons (Brother Morley's wife, a Brother Bill Drost when they were in Colombia. Could only read the scripture in Spanish, no Greek, no Hebrew, no Aramaic. Just Spanish. She knew the Word backward and forward. Jesus One God, Jesus Name Baptism, Holiness unto the Lord, and the power of the Holy Ghost infilling with speaking in other tongues all with book, chapter, and verse.
No one has to be a Greek scholar to get some Jesus name understanding. You just need the Holy Ghost desire to seek the truth not matter what the cost. I was at Abuelita's bedside when she passed on, and her grandson and myself prayed with her while she spoke in tongues and magnified the Lord in Jesus name as she passed on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1531397)
My only point is the Bauer lexicon is not keyed to s Strong's concordance. So if you cannot read Greek, it would be difficult to use.

As far as faith is concerned, one language is good enough.
I agree with you both. It just appears from reading posts through the years, we have people who criticize those that do NOT speak or read the original languages, when it wasn't necessary to do so all along. Just sayin'... That was what I was trying to get at.


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