Church Attendance
 

I think anyone would say the local Church is Gods plan. I believe in Church fellowship. It is being said here on AFF that I refuse to attend a Church because of having a beard and wanting to keep it. This is false. Altho I am passionate about the freedom to wear a beard it is the least issue in me choosing a Church.

I am hit always with warnings about being lost for not going to Church. But are THEY attending a Church Fellowship? Lets examine this.

What is Church? Well first off the Church is PEOPLE. Those who have the Spirit of God living in them. In this aspect of truth one need not go somewhere to be part of the Church. If you are in Christ and he in you your in the Church.

The next aspect is going to Church or we might say assembling with saints. This is very important. Do we submit ourselves to any group that claims to be a Church?

1 Tim. 3:14-15

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Apostle defines the local Church as the pillar and ground of the truth.

So how much false doctrine are local Churches allowed to teach and still be a "Church"?

Are our souls truly safe if we are submitted to Pastors or Preachers who teach a false and perverted foundation?

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Ok now this leads to a better question then, because I agree now Ephesians 4:11-12 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Without this you can't be perfected. Are you a 5 fold ministry in yourself?

And once again 1 Corinthians 12 blows this theory out of the water. Unless you are the 5 fold ministry and very member in the body also?

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The foundational teachings of the Apostles are more than Oneness and Acts 2:38. Important as they are we cannot think all will be well if thats all we have. I believe 3 main parts are missing from Apostolic Churches foundation. Part 1.

Most teach pre trib rapture. As far as I can tell others like Dom believe Jesus came for the resurrection and gathered the saints 2000 years ago. Should one attend a Church that teaches these things? Would you be safe?

Would you actually be DISOBEYING GOD attending a pre trib Church when Paul commands:

2 Thess 2:1-3




1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So Paul gives a strict warning to saints not to let any man deceive them.

About what? The time when Jesus will come.

Now those who say that Jesus can come any time must be deceiving the saints exactly what Paul said to not allow to happen.

They cannot agree with the Apostles doctrine that there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. They are teaching the pre trib coming of Jesus in direct disobedience.
So if one is indeed a deceiver teaching the opposite of Jesus and the Apostles are we truly attending an Apostolic Church?

Which is worse. Allow yourself to be deceived or not attend the meeting?

What if it is God forbid even worse, full preterism being taught at the local Church?

Paul writes Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:16-19

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Would it be good to attend a Church that teaches the resurrection of the dead has come and gone? Would you be safe there?

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Next the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. Most Oneness Churches teach that Jesus never even died. They teach only his body died not his person. This is possibly the greatest of heresy.

When Paul teaches Christ gospel to the Corinthians he gives them 58 verses concerning the afterlife. AMAZINGLY in this context of scripture about the afterlife and resurrection Paul never ONCE teaches saints die and are right then in Heaven.

Rather he teaches them the saints are asleep until the last trumpet when Jesus comes.

He teaches them until then they are mortal. When Jesus comes the dead and they will be made IMMORTAL.

1 Cor. 15:51-53

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

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? Who teaches that? What do you mean. I've never heard anyone say that.

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So let me pause for a few minutes here. The 2 major doctrines I have written of here are the main reasons I have not been attending a local Church for some time. The other things like the teaching that a woman is in sin if she trims her hair and she should NOT cover her head with a veil if she prays or prophesies, added with the teaching by many that a man wearing a beard is probably a homo or a drug dealer filled with pride are certainly disturbing.

Yet the foundation doctrines are first by way of importance. The other things follow.

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You never heard of the Roman Catholic doctrine of immortal soul? Most all Oneness Churches follow it. It says that when Jesus died he didnt really die. Only his body died and his immortal soul, his true person went on to continue living with Abraham in his bosom.

In this doctrine the SOUL of Jesus never dies and pays for our sins. If this doctrine be true then Jesus would not have been the Messiah.

This prophecy was about the Messiah's SOUL dying for us.

Isaiah 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

To fulfill this prophecy Jesus soul had to die. Jesus soul must have been MORTAL like yours and mine. If his soul did not die he was not the Messiah.

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Ok well what about this though 1 Peter 3:19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

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Hey, I got an idea! Go start your own church. :)

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So, when are you starting a church?

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No he does not need to start a church...

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Some of us need to be like Paul

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

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Perhaps you could lay out the Biblical case for "church attendance"? what is required, when, etc?

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While out and about in town yesterday, we drove by a UPC and I noticed their sign had a new message:

FREEDOM
THE RIGHT TO BE
AS SUCCESSFUL
AS I WANT TO BE

(might have had "desire" instead of want... not entirely sure)

Re: Church Attendance
 

Foundational error 3.

Eternal judgment.

Once error number 2 is accepted that man has an immortal soul then the enemy uses it as the platform for the doctrine that the sinner will be tormented throughout eternity.

Does it sound right to you that a 16 year old goes out the first week he has his drivers license and gets drunk and dies in a car wreck....and goes straight to Hell where he will be burning for a billion years?

But when that billion years is done it enters into another billion years? But when tens of billions of years have passed he is really not yet at the beginning of his punishment?

No, because he will be there until billions turn into trillions of years. Everyday drowning in the blazing flames of Hell!

And yet The Old Testament say:

Ezekiel 18:4

The soul that sinneth shall DIE.

The New Testament says:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Of course I realize some of you reading this have never heard the true doctrine of eternal punishment. It sounds at first hearing wrong you say.

Yet thats how the doctrine of Oneness originally sound to me when a friend told me her boyfriend beloved that Jesus was the Father!

If we will allow God to teach US we will grow in our knowledge of the truth.

And yes I do intend to present the doctrine of eternal judgment on the forum as I have here before. Coming soon.

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Rev. 21:8, Luke 16 rich man and Lazarus.

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:thumbsup

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So it is not true I am letting a beard come between me and going to a mainline Apostolic Church. It is PRIMARILY a problem of foundation doctrine. I am presently attending a UPC Church that just moved another 10-15 miles farther away from me, about 75 miles. They are post trib but hold to immortal soul and strict standards. Lord be willing I will go once a week unless something changes.

On Sunday mornings I will continue doing what I have for a long time tuning in to the Carlise Christian Fellowship a UPC Church with a group of elders who teach the foundation truth that I have laid out in this thread.

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Truth is in both of those contexts. Yet there is MUCH MORE in putting it all together. I will be starting a thread or resurrecting one of my old ones soon.

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Does it sound right to me? Doesn't matter how it makes me feel. The judgments of God aren't based on our emotions. God doesn't measure sin based on how it will make us feel.

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Well yea his judgment is based on his word and what he instructs us. We shall see that this is not the eternal judgment scripture teaches.

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Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire

these will go away into eternal punishment,

they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

punishment of eternal fire

thrown into the eternal fire.

the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,

it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

Just a few.

Re: Church Attendance
 

As it relates to beards, I look at it like this... the NT presents no requirement to wear a beard, nor any prohibition against wearing a beard. If a man ends up preaching against beards, his message isn't grounded in the book. It's a warning sign that the congregation is being conformed into the form and fashion of their tradition, not Christ Jesus via the Word of God. It's a rather small symptom of a far deeper and most often pervasive problem.

The only thing more worldly than Hollywood is... human religion tradition.

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Please tell me, why not?

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Re: Church Attendance
 

You caught that. :lol

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For starters anyone that has been out of the fellowship of believers for years and nitpics certain views and standards that are not salvation issues as if it makes someone a dictator or in false doctrine such as beards and post vs pretrib resurections, soul sleep, immortal soul, etc. It causes me to question their salvation and relationship with God so IMO a call of God to start a church is out of the question altogether.
Let me add this I do believe much of what he says but to make heaven or he'll out of some of it No thanks.

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I’m not saying the man has a call to do anything other than to work a night shift and be a member of a congregation. Yet, think about it. Since the advent of the internet you have as you call it, nit pickers. The Internet is a swirling cauldron of confusion. Individuals who normally would of been put on the pay no mind list have full access to saints who may be struggling with issues and understanding concerning their home church. Now, with people like Mike they are experts in giving advise on what everyone else is doing wrong. Therefore if they have all this insight then lead. If I’m a lost potato because I have a Bronx accent and wear a three piece suit, and believe opposite of Mike. Then he needs to at least set an example of building up a group and therefore have a place of gathering and attendance. 1974 he has been churning butter and wringing noses but has nothing to show for it but a shedding beard and pleased with himself that Jesus is somehow looks at him with a special adoration? Us suit wearing preachers are a mess? Then Mike needs to do the heavy lifting and show everyone how to git er done.

Re: Church Attendance
 

I do believe he attends a UPC? And why would you question his salvation?

Is it because he holds to certain doctrines you disagree with? Such as the doctrine that certain doctrines other than Acts 2:38 do indeed affect our salvation? If that is so, then aren't you essentially holding the same position he is?

For example: If person A says "anyone who believes xyz doctrine is in false doctrine and will not make it to glory unless they repent", and then person B says "anyone who believes doctrine xyz is a salvation issue is in false doctrine and will not make it glory unless they repent", then what really is the difference between the two positions? BOTH persons are maintaining that doctrine concerning xyz is a salvation issue...????

Re: Church Attendance
 

Who said I have been out of fellowship of believers? Did I say I have been out of fellowship with believers for years?

So I am nit picking non salvation issues? Lets try this one concerning the rapture.

If someone teaches that Jesus Christ came for the resurrection and catching away of the Church 2000 years ago would you say this is a nit picky doctrine? If one teaches this do you think they will enter Heaven?

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Some of the greatest Pastors, Evangelists and Preachers the world has ever or will ever know are sitting in an armchair somewhere...

At least that's what I've seen from posts on FB and AFF.

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It’s called self delusion.

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Do you attend a church? Do you have a pastor or eldership accountability?

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I believe we all need to attend church and as much as possible. If we are doing the great commission of winning souls, we need to direct them to a local body for strength and encouragement and growth in the Word. They need help when they face the trials and problems that we all had when we got saved. I have heard people's answer when I ask where they go to church, and their answer is wherever the Lord leads and it puts up red flags to me. Pastors are one of the five fold ministry. I realize some people are homebound because of sickness or taking care of their parents who are bed ridden. but, as a general rule, we need to be in church.

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I certainly agree with what you said. On the other hand how important is truth? If local Churches teach half truth and half error....and another Church farther away teaches MORE TRUTH and has streaming video you think this would be wrong?

If you are winning souls in your area then that opens up the potential for starting a Church yourself. OR you can invite the new convert to your home to watch the live meetings from elsewhere.

Re: Church Attendance
 

This assumes you know enough truth to discern a far away church teaching "more truth", and a local church teaching "more error". In which case sitting at home watching video of the "more truth" church is just going to be them preaching to the choir, amen?

Meanwhile, attending a church that teaches more error, you'd be able to filter what is taught (since you would know more truth than they did) plus you would have the added benefit of interacting in person with other believers. There will definitely be an advantage in that over just watching videos of preaching or people worshipping.

As for inviting people over to your house to watch church on video? Sorry, that's just cornball cheesy and I don't know anyone who would want to come over for that, except maybe a one time thing because "Oh, you have GOT to see this!"

But if you could get someone to come over and watch church, you could just as easily get them to come over and HAVE church...

Re: Church Attendance
 

Well yes I mentioned that option. The idea of attending Church where you have doctrinal differences to interact with other believers usually in my experience dont last long if you love the truth.

As long as you fellowship around what the group teaches your fine. If you try to talk about the truth that you believe with members of the group you will not last long. Then when you are confronted over the pulpit for sowing discord, when you leave then you are "rebellious".

Either you should have simply dropped what you believed and lined up with them or at a minimum NOT share what you believe. And theres always "the spirit of Absalom" sermon to drive you away if you dare to want to discuss doctrinal differences. And thats supposed to be "interaction" or "fellowship".

So yea been there done that. I suppose I'm willing to go through the whole thing again.

And no I would not consider it "cornball" to invite someone to my house to watch live streaming services of a group that was teaching truth. I would have less apologizing to do then if I took them to a local Church in that scenario.

I mean if I took a friend or new convert to many local Churches it would be kind of like this.

Now I know that they are saying men wearing beards is a sign of pride and rebellion BUT....

Now I know they said that a women is sinning if she trims her hair BUT.......

Now I know they are teaching that Jesus came and raptured the Church and took them to Heaven 2000 years ago BUT.....

Now I know they said as soon as Granny died she was sitting in Heaven with Jesus BUT......

So which scenario would be more EDIFYING to the new convert or friend or lost soul? Having to be apologizing that a local Church you are inviting them to teaches falsely on various things or either tell them to watch a live Church service where truth was taught and could be learned?

And again if there IS a local Church that has TRUTH all this would be un necessary.

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So it seems the options are:

1) Sit at home watching other people have church.

2) Joining a local church and get pushed out for believing differently.

3) Start a local work in your area.

So.... what are your plans?