Demons and the believer
 

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I believe spirit filled believers can be oppressed. I do not believe they can be possessed.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Hey in this sermon he addresses some good stuff that go along the lines of what your asking. He addresses that about half way through the message.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghCLnsjWmmE

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Many people believe that. Do you have any scrptural references?

Re: Demons and the believer
 

A kind of related thought. My Sister won't let anyone lay hands on her, unless she requests them to. She thinks that if their spirit is not right, they will impart whatever isn't right to her.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I've heard this before, and agree that people shouldn't let just anyone lay hands on them and pray for them.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CCA-bnyYszk/hqdefault.jpg

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Romans 6:16"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"
And since 1John 3:8 says "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." If you are sinning, and if he who sins is of the devil, then you are making yourself a slave unto sin, and therefore you are now a slave unto the devil! So what you do in that case as a free moral agent is give him Dominion over you.

Go to like 34:00 on the video and listen for like 15:00 minutes. That is how it works when you allow the devil to do anything. You are free moral agent and you can allow whatever you want. Whether it be to be to be led by the Spirit or the flesh, which is enticed and tempted, by the devil himself.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Lol

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Sure, just finish the verse you referenced...

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Ephesians 6:12..-‬18 KJV

The Bible says give no "place" to the devil. Place means occupancy in the Greek. The same word that was used when Mary and Joseph found no "room" in the inn.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Brother Blume:highfive

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Ephesians 6:10-20 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (19) And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, (20) For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

We are to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. This is accomplished by donning the whole armour of God, which is truth, righteousness, supporting the propagation of the Gospel, faith, our salvation, and the anointed Spirit-directed speaking of the Word. This is helped by (and largely takes place during) the praying and supplicating for all saints, said prayers being prayed "in the Spirit". And especially for Paul (and by extension all other preachers) that they might be empowered by God to boldly proclaim the Word at all times and every where.

The reason all this is needed is because "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. This is not talking about demons, but magistrates, religious leaders, religious ideas, secular persecuting governments and mass antichristian hysteria. The context of the verse you asked about is not about demons, but apostolic preaching and propagation of the Gospel in the midst of a hostile secular environment.

Powers and principalities are secular governments and magistrates:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Paul is saying our warfare or contest is not a physical contest like a typical wrestling match, but an ideological, spiritual war against the powers that be, which are magisterial positions (government positions, whether secular or religious) which are occupied and dominated by wickedness. As he says also here:

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

We do not war according to the flesh (in the power or might of mere flesh, as unregenerate men) but our weapons are Divine and are designed to: pull down strongholds ( a metaphor taken from siege warfare, a stronghold is a fortress or castle) which strongholds are "imaginations... every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God... every disobedient thought". Biblical spiritual warfare is not about demons or anything else star wars related, it is all about the conflict of worldviews between God's Word and Truth on the one hand, and the darkened imaginations of unregenerate, rebellious, sinful society on the other hand.

Since we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, and since the weapons of our warfare are designed to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ while tearing down every imagination and disobedient thought, etc, it follows that our wrestling against powers and principalities has to do with ideological conflict between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of unregenerate man. See Daniel 2 for a bird's eye view of that conflict in prophecy.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Thanks, Esaias.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Ephesians 4:26-27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: (27) Neither give place to the devil.

The context here is Christian behaviour. Christians are not to allow their anger to lead them into sin, they are not allow anger to go unaddressed and festering. They are to put away lying (vs 25) and to refrain from stealing but rather be productive and generous (vs 28).

The word "devil" is a generic term meaning slanderer, accuser, adversary. It is found here:

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

The word "slanderers" is diabolous, or "devils". The wives must be "not devils".

The word also occurs here:

2 Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

"False accusers" is diaboloi, and means "devils". Men are predicted to be "devils" in this verse. Vs 5 tells Christians to turn away from such devils.

The word also occurs here:

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Ages women are not to be devils.

Taking all this into account, it seems Paul is saying "give no place to the devil", that is, give no place for those who are false accusers, do not receive a tale-bearer or false accuser, pay no heed to their lying words, expunge them from among you, do not be such. It's meaning can be expanded to indicate that we should not allow any foothold in our congregations and indeed in our individual lives that is contrary to the will of God.

As regards to actual evil spiritual entities and "giving place" or making allowances for them, that is addressed elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 10:14-28 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. (16) The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? (17) For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (18) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? (19) What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? (20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. (22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? (23) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. (25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: (26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. (27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. (28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

The word "devils" in this passage is daimonion, and means "demons".

And again:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, (18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Not only does this passage forbid unequal yoking between believers and unbelievers, but the reason given is that there is no fellowship between the Temple of God and idols. Idolatry - pagan religious practices - have no part with the people of God or the worship of God, and therefore are not to be joined together, just as infidels have no part with believers, and are not to be joined together.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

:highfive

Re: Demons and the believer
 

This should provide better understanding of what the following passage means:

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (9) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

And should also provide some insight to help understand this:

Revelation 2:9-10 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And this:

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

So man just got these ideologies all of himself? He also wanted to sin just all of himself? Let me ask you Brother is that how it happened in the Book of Beginnings? Because the law of first mention sets the precedent, and whatever it was in the very beginning will be the way it was until the end.

We are battling against unregenerate men no doubt, but that's the tree not the roots. So here in Daniel 10 where it's says this in verse 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." You believe this is humans who are flesh and blood this is talking about? Because this word Prince is short for "principality" which is by definition "PATRON-ANGEL, Ruler of rulers (of God)". What we see with our eyes is only a reflection of what is going on in the Spiritual. It doesn't begin In the natural, no.sir the spiritual is only manifested in the natural realm.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Psalms 2:1-3 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

These verses clearly show that sin came into the world by Adam (not some demon), that Adam was NOT in fact deceived, just rebellious, and that the secular powers imagine and conspire against God without attributing such imaginations and conspiracies to demons.

I already quoted the Scripture where Paul says for us to be subjected to principalities and powers. Are you saying Paul wants us to be subjected to demons? Obviously not, the powers and principalities that we war against are secular and religious authorities and their ideologies of rebellion against God.

The prince of Persia withstood Gabriel, but Michael the chief prince helped him. No saints were involved in that battle. There most certainly are spiritual forces behind global geopolitics. But that is not what we are up against according to the apostle. Do you notice that nowhere in the New Testament do we find believers being told to engage in "prayer warfare" against demons and spiritual entities? Demons are simply cast out when they are encountered. Meanwhile, the apostolic church engaged in spiritual warfare against IDEAS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO GOD'S TRUTH. and they warred against such things by PREACHING AND TEACHING.

You aren't going to preach and teach demons out of anything. Those just need to be CAST OUT. But you HAVE to preach and teach against ERROR, you can't just pray it away.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Speaking of the "prince of Persia", upon what basis is it claimed that this was in fact a nun-human entity?

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Because he withstood Gabriel... and Michael had to woop him.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

So a human cannot oppose themselves to an angelic being? People oppose God Himself all the time. It doesn't say Michael had to "woop" him, necessarily, as if there was some kind of physical confrontation. I would say no human could resist an angel physically for long at all, the one exception in Scripture being Jacob, whose wrestling with the angel was by Divine appointment and for a purpose not then known to himself (not known to Jacob, that is).

If the prince of Persia was in fact Cyrus, then him withstanding Gabriel would mean the following:

Gabriel was involved in convincing Cyrus to restore Jerusalem, something he would in no wise be naturally disposed to do. So God sent an angel to influence him to accomplish the Divine purpose. But, at a certain point, Cyrus was backing out of it, having second thoughts, being swayed against such a move by his advisors and councilors. So he was "withstanding" Gabriel in that sense. The opposition was of such nature and character that Michael had to assist. When Gabriel was done meeting with Daniel, he was to return to Cyrus in order to continue influencing him to carry out God's plan for the restoration of Jerusalem. This was to be done because the prophesied prince of Greece was coming to conquer Persia, and the restoration of Jerusalem must be started before that happened, and indeed it must be started on a specific timetable in order for the Seventy Weeks prophecy to run its proper course.

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

The verses immediately before and after this one show that it is Gabriel speaking. Gabriel explicitly says that he was involved with Darius (a prior ruler of Persia), to "confirm and strengthen him". This shows that the idea of angelic beings influencing human rulers to fulfill the Plans of God is perfectly Biblical.

In addition, since angels are almost always mistaken for humans, it is entirely possible that Gabriel was an angelic being who was also in fact a member of Cyrus' imperial court, serving as an advisor. Michael may also have appeared in such a fashion. This might explain the meaning of the following statement:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Gabriel was there "with the kings of Persia", that is, with the various nobles of the Persian court. Doing what? Obviously influencing the court to promote the Divine plan to rebuild Jerusalem.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

He would not have been able to stop an angelic force for 3 weeksif he was human. First off he would've grew tired, and his no fly zone ban wouldn't have done anything against a spiritual being.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

On the other hand, if the prince of Persia is a non-human entity, we would need to see Scripture supporting such an idea. Where does the Bible say that nations are ruled by actual non-human entities? Where does the Bible teach that anyone can physically withstand angelic force and power in some kind of semi-physical combat?

If the prince of Persia is in fact a non-human supernatural entity, then the only Biblical conclusion as to his identity would be that he was in fact an ANGEL. But this creates a problem with him withstanding Gabriel. The problem is not insurmountable, of course, if one assumes angels have free will. But it would be extremely difficult to show that the prince of Persia was indeed anyone other than Cyrus who was withstanding the influences of Gabriel to accomplish God's purposes.

Note: If angels have free will, and if one understands the angels as comprising not only the armies of heaven but also the Divine Court, then it is entirely possible that two members of that Court might have different ideas on how best to proceed with the administration of the universal Dominion of Jehovah. Just as two humans, both Christians, both maybe even ministers or elders, might disagree with one another about the best way to advance the Gospel - see Paul's dispute with Barnabas concerning Mark, or Paul's dispute with Peter and Barnabas concerning their behaviour when in the presence of certain of the Judaizers in Paul's epistle to the Galatians. But I personally think this type of scenario in Daniel is rather far-fetched and on less secure footing than the scenario I have presented - that Cyrus was withstanding Gabriel's influences in his policy regarding Jerusalem.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

So there you go, and we're back full circle where we started. It's perfectly biblical there is a battle going on in the heaven lies, that's carried out in the natural. And Principalities and powers are headed by angels fallen, and unfallen. Which what we see is only the manifestation of that. And as you said that's totally bibical as you just stated.

That's how God could say to the Angels in Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." They became to know it first, it happened in the spiritual before it was ever brought to pass in the natural.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Of course Angels have freewill, they couldn't have fallen otherwise. The prince if Persia is absolutely not a man and it's not Cyrus. Your reaching.

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He would easily have withstood an angel if this was not a physical contest, which I think the Bible shows that some heathen engaged in a physical contest with an angel would be DISASTROUS for the human, rather quickly (see the 180,000 Syrians killed in one night by one unnamed angel). If Gabriel was influencing Cyrus and his court then it is easy to see how difficult the matter might be, how easily Cyrus would have withstood the angel.

Just as humans resist Almighty God all the time, every day of the week.

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At this point you have resorted to simply restating your claim. That's called "argumentum ad nauseum" and is a logical fallacy. Mere repetition of your claim doesn't establish your claim as true. You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach 1)there are fallen angels in the sense you understand that term to mean, 2)the prince of Persia is in fact one of these fallen angels, 3)that fallen angels can withstand in physical (for lack of a better word) confrontation with angels for any length of time, 4)that angels like Gabriel are inferior in power to some unnamed fallen angel and thus require help from an archangel in some kind of disembodied wrestling match. That would be for starters. :thumbsup

Re: Demons and the believer
 

What your saying sounds good besides for what in the world would Michael the warrior angel be needed to help him for. How could he have helped a man make up his mind? That doesn't make sense in the context of the scripture.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

You completely misunderstood my words, as if they somehow support your belief system regarding fallen angels and cosmic invisible battles with non-human entities. They don't. Angels influence events to accomplish the PLAN OF GOD. Principalities and powers are defined by the Scripture itself as magistrates and civil and religious powers, as I already demonstrated. Not invisible bogeymen.

Your interpretation of Genesis 3:22 is eisegesis pure and simple. You seem to imply that the fall of man took place "in the spiritual before it was ever brought to pass in the natural". Adam fell at a point in time, THAT is when sin entered the world. It did not enter via some mythological angelic rebellion, that's a Jewish myth which the apostles warned us about not giving heed to.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

It makes perfect sense, read my post again.

:thumbsup

Re: Demons and the believer
 

The burden of proof is on you.

1.But here Revelation 12:3-4 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Stars represent angels throughout the book of Revelation. 1/3 fell by following the Great Dragon Lucifer. (See Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekial 28:13-15, Luke 10:18-20)

2.Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." You can try to explain this away as human Government but what comes right after it in verse 16 "above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one." The armor of God is not for fighting Governmental forces, but it says in the scripture it's for fighting the "wicked one".

3. Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." And Revelation 12:7-8 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." That's why it took Michael because Gabriel is just a messenger angel, it took the warrior angel just like in this case with Prince of Persia.

4. That's why it took Michael mentioned in the above case. Just as in the passage in Daniel 10:13.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

But it was a physical contest i.e. the reference of Michael shows that. This was not a man's will fighting against God. Otherwise what was the purpose of Michael the warrior angel in the case. Can you show that?

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I hope you don't mean that. Because "it is entirely possible" , and "may have " are the right words for you to use. Because that is all hypothetical..

Re: Demons and the believer
 

Good points, Esaias.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I am not trying to hijack this thread but I felt the need to chime in on this post by the sister here, and I don't want to make a new thread about it.

I used to fellowship this church and I would go to the front during the altar call and there would always be these same brothers who would lay hands on me. I would go to the front to be obedient to the minister because he would request people to come. I would go and be there trying to commune with the Lord, then the same brothers would lay hands on me and most of the time it was actually distracting me from communing with God. It got to the point where I didn't want to go to the front, and would prefer to pray in my seat.

Am I the only one who feels like this sometimes? I agree with the sister in that I too feel that someone can impart some sort of spirit on you if you let them lay hands on you. Like this boy here who looks like he got a spirit from the Pope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJnYmGV6N1o

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I have been prayed for and had individuals whisper their prophesy to me. Somethings on target. Somethings creepy. Somethings so far off in left field it was hysterical. Anyway, at meetings I have had people lay hands on me and pray. Out around the city I’ve had people stop by the Bible study and pray. Are they imparting spirits? Well, greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world. Also I need the prayer, and they need the practice.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I think you are right :thumbsup

Re: Demons and the believer
 

How did you get this so wrong? 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood' meaning 'human beings'. Our fight isn't with humans but against spiritual powers of darkness, ie: devils/demons/fallen angels who fight against our minds with deceitful lies and lusts.
This dark spiritual army is organized into a hierarchy. They also influence governmental leaders to do their bidding. Our war is not against human beings in any format. We are to LOVE them and lead them to the side of light.

Re: Demons and the believer
 

I don't think a brother should lay hands on a woman and visa versa unless requested to.

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Agreed.