2 Peter 3
 

Will the earth be destroyed by fire?

I'm disturbed by the state of our world in many ways and I just can't see it continuing indefinitely.

Our world is so spiritually bankrupt and immoral, we are living in the day when Christians are seen as intolerant, biblical values are seen as hate speech. The things Christians consider evil are seen as values to be protected.

We are living in a world where it is very difficult to discern reality. Who is the enemy? What is fake news and what can we believe?

We are also living in a world since the industrial revolution in which a small percent of the world has consumed a vast amount of the worlds resources, living in a manner that is unsustainable. How can we go on living this way?

Our water, air, and food is contaminated. I don't see our world lasting forever.

Back to Christianity. How far are we from the book of acts church? Jesus said for us to take up our cross and follow.

It seems to me that if someone actually embodied Philippians 2, they would seem alien and radical to us, what should be normal, isn't.

People are far more interested in consumerism, eating and drinking and being entertained, then in doing the hard work of fixing our world.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

And, everyone is so freaking fat. people are not healthy, but they are stuffing their faces with cookies, and candies, and cakes and pies.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

When Peter says the Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. OK, 1,000 years is a day in the Lord's sight is not dealing with some timeline, It is dealing with the Psalm which deals with how brief our lives are. Peter uses that with 2nd Peter 3:9. the Lord isn't slow to fulfill His promise as men understand slowness, but He is patient. You all waiting for everyone to get some pay back isn't what God had in mind, not by a long shot. The elements burning up with a fervent heat and the works therein is the old system passing away. Jesus said (I know you all refuse to see this,) but He said until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Unless you know of a temple in Jerusalem which is still fully operating with its animal sacrifices and priestcraft Then boys and girls whatever that heaven and earth He was talking about had something to do with even the minute piece of the Israeli Law system. Not some Johnny come lately Babylonian Talmud Rabbinical Judaism. That heaven and earth which would flee away from the face of Him which sat on the throne. That my dear friends is what was burning up with a fervent heat with its works therein. The works of the Law. The Lord isn't slow, as men count slowness. Peter emphasises this by telling them about God's patience. But wanted all of Israel and Judea to come to repentance. Peter, Apostle to the Judeans? Speaking directly to the Judeans about when that temple was supposed to come down brick by brick, stone by stone, and Jesus' words vindicated?

Neither could any generation which came before you. It is called hopelessness. You see, the EVERLASTING Gospel the world without end, seems not to work that well in the mind of the saints. Pretty much it has a cut off. Oh, yeah they say there is an end time revival, but faithlessness causes all of us to hit a wall. Then say come Lord Jesus, but not like Revelation to bring the New Jerusalem down from heaven so we have God with Us. But, come Lord JESUS to take us out of the world. While Jesus in His prayer of Gethsemane, was. "I pray not that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them. Keep them, protect them through any tribulation that might happen in any generation. Israel was supposed to world dominate in the name of the Lord, but the lost. The baton was passed to the True Israel of God, the one that was supposed to do greater works. But someone convinced them they were supposed to get out of here the minute her wagons got surrounded. Overcoming lives, yet not enough to overcome the world? Where sin abounds grace abounds even more? What happened there?

You aren't, I'm not, other brothers and sisters you personally know are good decent filled Holy Ghost saints. If we keep our light hidden how is that going to dominate the world?

Because we are. Just thank God someone is noticing.

Well, that's a Biblical fulfillment.

If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you
If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Well my dear sister, hang around a while. Secular people are getting a little fed up. Even the homosexuals are seeing they are being used as pawns by the liberals. the blacks are walking up to see how the liberals are the racists. They voted in Donald Trump, not because he is the beast, or he iss Cyrus reborn. The voted him in because they are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Our job isn't political, but spiritual, wee are to pry down strongholds, but sadly we have too many looking for fire to come down from heaven Luke 9:54-56.

Sister, Jesus knows all about that, we are to walk through the fire and not be burned, and the flood doesn't overtake us. Esaias posted world dominion? Sounds good to me John 14:12-14.


You sis, I can't make my wife, my daughters, my church family live for God. I can't make anyone who is an adult do anything. Revival starts with me, living a books of acts, or flying Elijah, Elisha double portions are all predicated on me. I may inspire someone on the way, but my main focus is getting me right. If no one accepts what I believe, if know one wants to live right, that's not my problem. My problem is me to listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, to follow the Spirit of TRUTH. The sons of the prophets kept hounding Elisha that His pastor was going to be taken away from him. He told them to shut up 2 Kings 2:3. We need to stop listening to the wrong voices, we have a church family, we have ministry over us in our location where we live. We need to inspire them. No one is going to go to work for me, no one is going to do my job when I get there. I have to do it to the best of my ability. But with the Church, it is Jesus working through me that gets the heavy lifting down. If you believe the planet is going to burn up, and that everyone is gong to turn into flesh eating Zombies. Then sister, then set your watch, but get busy doing the work, getting souls saved so they don't burn up. Pray that the LORD enables you to have a double portions, that you get to see blind eyes open, healings, casting out devils, even before you step in the room. Place these words in the first place you look at in the morning and before you go to bed, pray to Jesus that these sings shall follow you, "these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Jediwill showed me some cool pizzas last night. :happydance

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

I'm more interested in the fruit of the Spirit than the signs mentioned in Mark.

The world goes not well, but his kingdom is coming.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

2 Peter

The saints were longing for Jesus to come that they would see him and receive the eternal life he had promised. Wicked scoffers were taunting them and mocking their hope even as men do now. Satan uses them to try to rob our faith that we would stop believing in Jesus.

Peter is addressing the coming of Jesus. Saints were suffering but they held out based on their hope for his coming.

The end time scoffers dont like to be reminded of Gods coming judgment on the world. When they hear that kind of preaching they attack it. Yet Peter uses this very thing in his writings to comfort the saints, assuring them that just as Christ promised to COME AGAIN he has also promised to judge the wicked.

Peter writes about the very coming of the Lord that the saints are longing for. The coming of the Lord where he actually comes and receives them to himself.

Paul wrote of the exact same thing. The coming of Jesus (day of the Lord) like a thief.

1 Thess 4:15-18

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When Jesus comes their hope in the promise of his coming would be realized!

Now don't forget, there are no chapter and verse separations. Look closely at THE NEXT 2 VERSES.

1 Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The day of the Lord coming like a thief to gather his people together meant the same thing to Paul as it did to Peter. The day Jesus COMES for his people.

Paul follows with the same warning of the judgment of the wicked that is as certain against them as the coming of the Lord to rescue them.

1 Thess 5:3

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Here lies the key to the future hope the saints of every generation can experience. Tho it seems to them he tarries long TO HIM.....it's different than to us.

Even now while men mock the promise of his coming, God sees it from HIS PERSPECTIVE he hasn't even been gone FOR 3 DAYS!

That time frame 1000 years as a day and a day as 1000 years was given to us to hold onto while we patiently wait for him.

Peter now understood he was going to die and that he would not live to the coming of the Lord. He knew this coming could still be thousands of years away by our time but encourages them and us to keep believing that the day of the Lord will come!

verses 11-13
Peter does not relent in his teaching them of the great judgments coming and of their future hope! Even as the day of God will destroy the earth his people that DO live godly lives will inherit a New Heaven and a New Earth!

This present Earth will be destroyed by fire. It will be destroyed so that the Lord can make it into a new one wherein righteousness will dwell.

Rom 8:21-23

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

At the time of the redemption of our bodies, the day of the resurrection the Earth will begin to come to this liberty also. But first it must undergo its destruction, that it might live again!

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

But did Peter give them the hope they would fix the world? While our presence in the world will bring good, we will always be a light IN THE DARKNESS!

Nothing Peter says in those scriptures you posted gives the saints the idea they will ultimately fix the world. The exact OPPOSITE!

Saints will be here in a wicked world or age. In doing Gods will as prescribed in his word we will experience a FORETASTE of what the kingdom of God is like.

We are encouraged by Peter in that same context:

2 Peter 3:14

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

The "such things" we are looking for is the day of the Lord and entering into eternal life with him. The New Heavens and the New Earth!

He NOWHERE gives them the hope they will "fix" or "dominate" the world.

Our hope is in the coming of Jesus to gather us to himself!

Paul taught the same as Peter!

2 Thess 1:7-10

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul's emphasis is not on fixing society. Rather on saints being gathered to Jesus ON THAT DAY. Verse 10.

Now this does NOT mean we can live careless lives. Paul calls for holiness as we wait, and prays for it to be worked in them by the grace of God.

Verse 11

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

So live holy and spotless before God in our personal walk with him. Do good to all. Help who you can. But understand the Church will not FIX the world.

At his coming Jesus Christ will overthrow its kingdoms by force and violence.

Rev. 11:15-18

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

At his coming and his kingdom he will reward his saints and destroy them that destroy the Earth.

So the saints while being a light in a dark world are to save sinners out of it not to fix it. Jesus will fix it when he comes and we will assist him in the job.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Amen being like Jesus. Thats the goal of God for the believer until he comes.

Rom. 8:28-29

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That there might be a present revelation of Jesus in the Earth. In power and in meekness. Not one apart from the other.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

thank you for the encouragement brothers, I appreciate it.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Why didn't Peter inform them that it wasn't going to happen during their time? That all they had to do is endure until their death where they would fall asleep? When they would wake up would be a better day.



2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. This isn't speaking of a second advent, because these individuals are "wicked scoffers" are Judeans who were mocking the Christians about Messiah. Number 1, the Judeans Christians were dealing with Judeans who mainly didn't believe Jesus was the Christ. So, when the first century Judean Christians would inform their fellow Judeans about a second advent, they didn't even believe that Jesus was the first advent. After all they mocked Him on the cross while He was dying, His death to them was GOD'S curse on Him (being unmarried and having no generation children) So, to a good lion share of the Judeans He didn't fit their idea of conquering Messiah. So, where is the promise of His coming is referring to those asking the Christians we don't believe that Messiah even came, because everything's the same as it was since the patriarches fell asleep. Everything is the same since the day of creation. Peter then reminds Judeans about there history of Noah, and how God wiped out the world. These Judeans would of also know that Genesis 8:21 said that GOD would not curse the earth anymore for man's sake, that every living thing would suffer because of man. God would never destroy all life (the creatures) other than man anymore. Genesis 9:11 speaks of God's promise to not destroy all flesh with a flood. Doesn't say He would destroy it with any other means? So, I won't destroy all flesh with a flood here is my rainbow, but there will come a day in man's future where I destroy all living with fire. I saved the creatures before, but in the future you all get destroyed with the wicked? No, the first mention must be followed, and in Genesis 8:21 the Judeans that Peter is speaking to understood that GOD wouldn't destroy everything because it doesn't motivate man to do anything. Then one might say well, it is over, wicked man is wiped out? Well, that isn't entirely true, because wicked man is hanging out in the Millenium waiting for Satan to come along and lead them against the saints of God.

Again, the comfort would of been focused on going to sleep in the grave with the fathers. Therefore in awakening the storm would be passed. Peter is mentions Psalm 90:4 For in Your sight a thousand years are but a day that passes, or a watch of the night. due to God while patient is about to do as HE promised. Psalm 90 speaks man's life as brief as grass, therefore God doesn't wait for ever to do what He says. The wicked were the ORIGINAL Judeans who refused to hold faithful to the law, who used the temple as a talisman, who rejected the son of the vineyard, murdering all the Master of the vineyard sent, but sealing their fate by murdering His only aire.


Peter is writing to these people in the present tense. Peter himself believes these things will happen within his time and the time of his readers. Again, like in Daniel, the prophet was informed whether these things were during his lifetime or future. We have noting like that here, because the Apostle never indicates that this destruction is in the far off future. 2,000 years and progressing is a long time. Yet, the Apostle is specific addressing his readers as they should expect this tribulation in their time, yet continue in hope. If far of in the future, the writer is silent, and never tells them relax, go and sleep until the time has passed. First century was a long time ago, and the apostles knew that these people wouldn't of been alive when this devastation would occur. A pre Tribulation rapture scenario doesn't work here, because Peter never informs them that they would be taken up while the planet is INCINERATED, and they are returned to a reformed recreated planet. Because that is what is being said here. heavens and earth totally obliterated, absolutely melted away, dissipated, vanished, poof thin air.

Actually, any mention of total obliteration is not mentioned here, but actually is focused on order of events during a change. One group is assured that they will not proceed the group who are already asleep in their graves. That the change that happens to those asleep, will happen to them who REMAIN, who are still alive. Fervent heat? melting planet? Utterly wiped out solar system? Universes as far as the mind could fathom, totally no more to be recreated? Yet, the dead proceeds the living and the living go in their own order?

A total destroyed universe is what is being referred to here?


This is referring to Psalm 90, where it speaks of man's brevity, and God eternalness. While man believes God to take long, while his own life is short. God is still going to fulfill things in the time frame He promises. 1,000 years is a day, is talking about 6,000 years and we are waiting to live in a temporary kingdom for only 1,000 years to end up in another war with another falling away at the end of the 1,000 years. Hmm, wouldn't that be the great falling away then? :nah

Where does Peter indicate that he and his readers would not see these events? 1,000 years are but a day? The promise of His coming, isn't the second advent, but the first advent. Peter is speaking to Judeans who not only doubted a second advent, but a first, because they didn't believe that JESUS was the Christ. Why would they even entertain a return if they didn't even believe He arrived?

Well, this has a few problems. One, since at until the passing of heaven and earth every jot and tittle, there would be no way for the law to pass until that event. Then my question must be, where is temple sacrifices continuing? Where is the Zadokite priesthood? Where are all the "legitimate" Israelites and Judeans returning to the feasts within the city of David? Where are all the law continuing all that was prescribed in Torah? 2,000 years and NO temple, no legitimate priestcraft? If the planet obliteration is required, then we should be able to see every jot and tittle still in place, still being practiced.

Paul, and Peter said that? Jesus clearly indicates that the law in its very last minute detail would continue until heaven and earth passed away? Where is this happening? Remember it must be continuing in the very smallest minute detail. Until the destruction of the universes?

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Be of good cheer, our President Donald J Trump is going to make America Great Again!!!! :thumbsup

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Dom,

Do you agree that "the promise of his coming" refers to the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his saints and grant them eternal life?

And that is the same event as the day of the Lord coming like a thief?

If we can agree on that perhaps we can talk.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Peter was like the rest of us. He didn't know the day or the hour of Christs coming. He believed it to be soon as anyone in a given generation should.

Yet he allowed for the fact it could be a long time from our perspective, thus his statement about 1000 years being a day or a day being 1000 years.

If one dies before Christ comes, yes they will awake to a new and better day at the resurrection!

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Woops! So Peter in your opinion is NOT writing to the saints to encourage them not to give up on the promise of his coming?


You seem to be saying the epistle Peter wrote was written to unbelieving Jews? Not to the saints? It would seem to me his teaching would be irrelevant to unbelievers, and that his point is to encourage the believers who were still expecting Jesus to come..

Well in this very letter we are discussing he is warning his audience that God IS going to destroy the Earth again. Thats one of his main points. As it was in Noahs time it will not be destroyed in the sense of no flesh being left alive. Jesus will RESTORE the Earth that he has smitten.

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Have ye made peanut brittle since ye believed? :heeheehee

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

I believe the threats of judgment and destruction DO motivate man to do things. Not everyone of course but some. Jesus preached a lot of judgment in his ministry.

Peter believed the lines he wrote about judgment and destruction WOULD motivate his audience.

He says after giving them such a warning:

2 Peter 3:11-12

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat

The resurrection of the dead is certainly the blessed hope. But itself is connected to the COMING of Jesus.

1 Thess 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

So in your opinion Peters second letter has no relevance for TODAYS BELIEVERS?

There is no wicked around today that are taunting Christians by saying "where is the promise of his coming?

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Peter said he was going to die. He knew this was going to happen. He said the Lord showed him. On the other hand he does NOT tell his readers they would not see the coming of Christ. It was in play for them.

They were supposed to, while hoping it would be soon, remember that it might still be a long time. That is the crux of his message to the saints.

You say 2nd Peter is NOT the coming of Jesus like a thief for his people. Rather it is somehow his first coming to unbelievers. If so they will be defeated and judged by Jesus when he comes.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Yeah, but we were shown the way of God more perfectly. :)

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The world order of Noah's day was destroyed by water, the earth itself was not destroyed. Society was wiped out, but the physical earth itself wasn't obliterated.

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Its not just the pastry dishes. People don't exercise, eat processed garbage that masquerades as food, consume way too much GMO and soy, and are just generally weaker, dumber, and lazier than previous generations. We're on the backside of the Bell curve at this point.

Today my 10 year old boy knocked out 200 dumbbell curls, a couple sets of clean and presses, and some deadlifts and squats (light barbell), plus a bunch of calisthenics. I'm back to the same size pants I was wearing 20 years ago. My older girls can literally crush pumpkins with their legs. Our goal is within 12 months to be getting zero food from the grocery stores.

Fat, soft, lazy, and stupid do not forge civilizations. But artificial societal respiration (aka mass welfare) certainly will kill a civisation.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Yes:highfive

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will you be buying and selling at farmer's markets?

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The elements melting is similar to the world flooding in Noah's day. It's not the planet. In fact ELEMENTS is only used as a term to speak of the old covenant basic elementary issues that foreshadowed the new.

This is first century material.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Scripture Text:

2 Peter 3:1-13 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: (2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior: (3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Message:


Scriptural language shows evidence of God speaking in certain ways.


* Revelation notes God signified his truth to John -- symbolic language depicting bible truth.
* Why?
* Why did Jesus speak in parables?
* A seeking heart that is teachable has a great quality.
* It is not given to some to know.
* Two people can hear the same word and one will approach it spiritually and benefit, while the other from a natural viewpoint gets nothing.

I detest fear-mongering and scare tactics in preaching relative to God's Word.

* You cannot scare folks into the Kingdom.
* They will only produce a surface commitment.

And some make it so mysterious they cannot understand it.

* Some believe they can never understand the bible.
* However, all scripture is inspired and profitable.
* Not one word is not profitable.
* That means we are meant to understand it.
* It is God-breathed.

But do not try to understand Revelation in a 21st century concept.

* If you read the first few verses it tells you that the book was sent back to seven churches.
* What would make the book something a first century church could understand and be blessed because they heard it and understood and received it, when today you can get 50 dozen different interpretations form the same book?
* The pastors would read it to those congregations, for them to hear, believe and understand and live by it.
* Is it sensible that 3 of those churches would believe it one way, three another and one totally different again?
* He does not teach differently in Ephesus than in Smyrna.The Spirit is one teacher.

When the letter came and they read it, all those first century churches would understand it.
o They did so without cobra helicopters, and stinger missiles and Abraham tanks and jet planes and computer chips.
o Someone wrote recently that God held the Revelation on the shelf until the computer age so we could now understand what they read when they read about the mark.
o So, what about the people beforehand in 1900 years who knew nothing about computers?

A language is being taken out of its context in cultural terms and time element terms.

* But God is doing something.
* As God pulls the shroud off the hearts of sincere people, a liberty of the Spirit occurs that will not be found otherwise.

The second coming of Jesus is real.

* He will break the clouds of glory and come again!
* But a revival must occur that will bring salvation to the lost.
* There will be a final resurrection of the people of God, but I do not believe it will be tonight.
* Does this destroy the coming of the Lord?
* Not at all.

We are accused of not believing Jesus is coming back again.

* I deny that!
* He is!
* It's just that my time element is different from others.

So let's look in the scripture.

Continued...

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

This becomes one of the pivotal chapters that help us understand what to expect about the events of the world.

* Peter noted scoffers.
* What authority do I have to say we are living in the last days?
* Joel 2 says that the Spirit would be outpoured.
* He said "in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh."

The last days were the last days of the Law.

* When God would bring in a new covenant.
* He ratified it with the outpouring of the Spirit.
* Peter was well aware of the situation around him.
* His ministry led him to about 66 AD, four years before Jerusalem was destroyed.
* He was crucified upside down according to history.
* He spoke of mockers and pointed them to what Jesus pointed out.
* The flood.
* He said they might be ignorant, but all things have not continued as they were from the beginning.

There was a flood.

* The world at that time was overflowed and perished of water.
* People died in the flood.
* The earth did not die.
* The dove Noah released returned with an olive branch.
* Nothing was wrong with the earth.
* Noah even planted a vineyard.
* It was not the world that I walk on.
* That was not what was dissolved.
* The people perished.

Peter said "the heavens and the earth which are now."

* Now there is another heaven and earth that will have fire rained on it.
* If the first one was not destroyed, then what was this other one?
* It's not talking about the cosmic world.
* Heavens and earth are biblical terms concerning the people of God.

We are not near as smart as some of these archaeologists are.

* They find things that say the earth is millions of years old.
* I may not believe all of that, but they have lots of indication of a massive flood at one time, for example.
* I saw an oyster shell 14" across from end to end, found at Summit Lake at the highest point of the Alaska highway.
* The world was overflowed with water.
* But the world did not perish.
* The people did.

Peter speaks of the "day of the Lord."

We may get into this later, but it is indicative of a day of judgment that God would bring upon nations or His own people.

* Zephaniah 1 is a good example about what is the day of the Lord.
* Zephaniah spoke of Babylon overthrowing Jerusalem in the early 600's BC.
* When Peter spoke of the day of the Lord, He said it would come like a thief in the night.
* Preachers scared the daylights out of us with those messages.
* But then I read 1 Thess 5, where the bible says it's not for us, to overtake us like a thief.
* All of this language is apocalyptic of judgment to fall in a matter of a few short years from the time Peter wrote this, upon the city of Jerusalem.
* The elements would melt with fervent heat and the earth also, and the works shall be burned up.
* Things would be dissolved.
* The earth would be dissolved.
* "Find a hole!"?
* No.
* That is not what he is saying.


Look back into Psalm.

Quote:
Psalms 75:1-3 To the chief Musician, Al-taschith, A Psalm or Song of Asaph. Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare. (2) When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. (3) The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Psalms said the earth was dissolved, not going to be dissolved.

* You can stay in the Bible and stay with David's kingship and follow for at least 500 years of lineage and ministry of the house of David.
* If the earth was dissolved, how can you do that?
* You cannot dissolve the earth without dissolving everything in it.
* So how could Solomon rise up if the earth was dissolved?
* God is speaking of series of judgments upon Israel due to disobedience.

Quote:
Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
Who is God speaking to?

* Israel.
* Earth is not South America or Mexico or Russia.
* It's the land of Israel.
* That is where Isaiah prophesied.

Quote:
Isaiah 24:18-21 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. (19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. (20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Language of judgment.

One preacher said the 20th verse speaks of "the mother of all earthquakes" coming.

* Japan just had 6.8 this last week.
* Earthquakes register in the high 6 and 7's Richter scale.
* Were we shaken in Canada?
* The language indicates severity of judgment that God would bring, and it did happen.
* Isaiah foretold what would happen and what God would do to get them out of it.

Quote:
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Can the earth actually hear?

* It is speaking about His people!

Quote:
Isaiah 34:2-6 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (3) Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (4) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. (5) For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. (6) The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

What is God saying?

* He is sick and tired of all their sacrifices.
* So He will judge them.
* How?
* Take the heavens.
* How many light years are out there?
* God would take the heavens and roll it all up.
* He is speaking of a severity of judgments to take place on the earth.

Continued...

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Revelation 6:12-16 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In Luke 23 Jesus was on his way to Calvary and spoke to the women weeping.

Quote:
Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. (29) For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. (30) Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Judgment was coming.

* As you study these scriptures and look at them form the standpoint of judgment, every time that something happens in the cosmic heavens, we are not looking and saying that is it!
* Recall the planets aligning.
* That was supposed to indicate the beginning of the end, and that has come and gone without the end.
* God is not playing games.
* Understand the language of His word or be led astray.
* Read God's Word with understanding!

Quote:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Back to Matthew 24.

Quote:
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I tried understanding that verse for so long.

* What is He talking about and getting at?
* Tribulation and then talking about eagles and vultures.
* Go to Isaiah, though, and see where God promised that He would spread their carcases over the earth and feed them to fowls of the air.
* That was said before Babylon came down, and Nebuchadnezzar was was called "the eagle of the north."
* I read tracts of vultures multiplying 30 years ago, and it was proven to be false.
* The man who wrote the tract admitted he did it for a reaction.
* What is God doing?
* Getting a people to read through the eyes of the Spirit and not through carnal minds.


Quote:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

That is tribulation to face Israel when the armies of Rome invaded her.

* How many know Bro. Luke tells us what the abomination of desolation was?
* Jerusalem compassed about with armies.
* God would send his armies.
* Not from heaven.
* He brought Babylonians against Jerusalem and called them His armies from the North in the Old Testament times!
* He judged Idumea and bathed his sword in heaven, but it was invading armies with God behind it.
* Men wielded the sword.
* Thayer's Greek Lexicon refers to POWERS saying it indicates power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces or hosts.
* Moon, stars and sun is not speaking about the actual sun, moon and stars.
* Joseph's vision spoke of the family of Joseph in the sun, moon and stars.

Isaiah 13 uses the same language to indicate the kingdom destroyed.

* It is pulling down governments and forces and authorities.
* If the stars of heaven would fall, one star alone is near the size of the earth. Many many are far greater.
* But the stars of heaven fell to the earth in the bible.
* Did the devil bring 1/3 of all physical stars from heaven?
* A crater in Syberia made one of the largest clear-water lakes in the world.
* In New Mexico a huge crater was hit with a very small meteor.
* This is not speaking of stars.
* It's judgments with government and kings being destroyed.
* Most of it was against Israel.
* God spoke of judgment upon Babylon:

Quote:
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Haggai spoke of something we are in on today.

Quote:
Haggai 2:6-7 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; (7) And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
When this began to occur, it meant Jesus was about to come to His temple.

* The glory would return.
* Where was the glory?
* In the face of Jesus Christ.
* Isaiah 40 foretells John the baptist preparing the way for the Glory of the Lord is revealed and all the earth seeth it together.

Quote:
Haggai 2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;

Haggai 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

Haggai 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

God would shake the heavens and destroy kingdoms.

Quote:
Hebrews 12:26-28 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. (27) And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. (28) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Jesus said the Kingdom in Matthew 21 is taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth fruits.

* Paul interpreted the words of Haggai as saying the Kingdom of God has come with the old covenant leaving.
* Peter says the church is the holy nation.
* The kingdom of priests.
* God shook the OLD ORDER.
* It had no righteousness to offer.
* Peter said we look for a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.
* God made Christ our righteousness.
* That is what Hebrews was envisioning.

Quote:
Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Read that from Psalms.

Quote:
Psalms 102:24-28 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. (25) Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. (26) They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: (27) But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. (28) The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.
Back to Hebrews.

Quote:
(11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Notice Hebrews 8 now.

Quote:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Notice what waxes old!

* The old covenant!
* It could never take away sin and waxed old!
* So God folded it up like an old garment and put it away.
* He brought in the New!

Yesterday I prayed and felt God's Spirit take me on a journey through the word.

* Why was it that Israel goes into such problems to wind up in their city and temple being destroyed, with over 1 million dying, and others captivated?
* What would cause God's anger?
* Two things caused that.
* When Jesus came He came as Messenger of the covenant.
* They were under the old covenant and rejected the messenger of the new covenant.


continued...

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

...continued

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Why was this so important in his overall plan?

* They rejected the messenger, first of all.
* When Jesus died, Heb 9 says the covenant came into being at the death of the testator.
* The will is no good until you die.
* The covenant was in God's heart.
* Until the princes crucified the Lord, they had not yet released the new covenant
* His blood would ratify it.
* But notice in the first four chapters of Acts, you will find that when Peter directed the message of salvation, he spoke to ISRAEL.
* Israel now had the chance to repent.
* So after rejecting the messenger they rejected the covenant, itself.
* When they rejected the church, Acts 2:38, the message from God to be saved, was rejected.
* And that moment there was no other way for them.

All of this was God saying He would severely judge Israel.

It is a language of judgment commonly used in the bible with which we need to become familiar.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

interesting, it seems you may be correct.

any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G4747&t=KJV

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

For those who see the "new heaven and new earth" as the "new covenant," will there be a cutoff date for the earth?

People are destroying the earth, will be even be habitable in 100 years?

Or do you see terra firma continuing indefinitely?

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

I believe that's what Paul meant in Gal 4 about the elements of the world, since he is speaking about Law. The elements of the world in Gal 4 are not BAD things. They're law keeping rites. Law is elementary. Elements are necessary and good building blocks. But Paul was saying there that the days of ABC building blocks of law keeping are gone. It's the same greek word used in Col 2 also where we read about the rudiments of the world.

Law was called elements of the world because it used material rituals and physical rites that formed as foreshadows of the new.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

I see no worries in 100 years. I disbelieve climate change, etc. The world, of all things, always goes on with some apocalytpic threat and warning in its fake politicing. In the 70's it was the lie of the energy crisis.

I am not sure if there will be a physical end of the earth, or e revamping, or whatever. But there is an end of the way of things as we know it, with mortality ending and a definite point when sinners are gone along with the devil and sin into the lake of fire..

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Like adding pecans?

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

2 Peter 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Psalms 50:1-6 A Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. (2) Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. (3) Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. (4) He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. (5) Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. (6) And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

I do not believe the scoffers are necessarily scoffing at either the second or the first advent, but rather are scoffing at promised Divine Judgment. The contrast is between the old world order being destroyed by the Flood, and the then-current world order being destroyed by fire, as the result of Divine Judgment. "The promise of His coming" has to do with the visitation of God in Judgment destroying the world order, not necessarily either the first or second coming of Christ. Of course, whatever is connected to the visitation of Divine Judgment would be included in "His Coming", but again I do not think the apostle is SPECIFICALLY referring to people SPECIFICALLY scoffing at any particular coming of the Messiah, per se. Rather, they are going to be scoffing at the nearness of Divine Judgment.

The reason they scoff is because "all things continue" as they have been "since the fathers fell asleep." The fathers is a Hebraism for the Patriarchs: Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc., and the early generations of Israelites. In other words, everything has remained since the Flood and there has been no world destroying cataclysmic Judgment. The scoffers are willingly ignorant of the fact that the word of judgment which brought the Flood will also bring a fire.

Not that there is a text in Genesis speaking of a fiery judgment, but rather that as demonstrated in the Flood it is the intention of God to judge sin and sinful man, so as to cleanse the earth from wickedness. No more to be by a flood implies either that God would never again judge the earth at all, OR that He would judge the earth by a different means.

The heavens and earth were not literally obliterated by the Flood, nor shall they be literally obliterated by fire. I could be wrong, we might all be wrong, but simply going by the Bible's own statements about these subjects, I have to conclude that the destruction is not of material reality itself, but of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7, quoted above).

The idea is that the heavens and earth which are now are "kept in store, reserved" to that Judgment. This is the same type of language used by the apostle in reference to the ungodly:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The idea is that the wicked appear to be just continuing on with no end in sight, but the saints are encouraged and reminded that the judgment of the wicked is inevitable, howsoever long it may seem to be delayed:

Psalms 37:7-11 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. (8) Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. (9) For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. (10) For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. (11) But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalms 37:34-36 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. (35) I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. (36) Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Peter is expressing the same concept, that though God's Judgment seems to tarry, that is, seems to be delayed, yet eventually it will come to pass, Judgment will certainly come, and the wicked shall be destroyed.

The "thousand years are as a day" passage is pointing out that we and God often view time differently. What seems like an awful long time for us is nothing to God. Thus, man's 70 years (80 if he is strong), which is a good long life for the average human, is really just a passing vapour barely worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things:

2 Peter 3:8-9 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What men count as delay, or slackness, is in reality longsuffering or patience on God's part. The purpose of God's longsuffering (patience) is that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Some have applied this to all mankind, but I think the context is clearly in favour of being applied to the saints, for he says "God... is longsuffering to us-ward." "Us" being the elect. God is saving His people, and that requires patience on His part, which foolish men interpret as slackness or apathy or unwarranted delay by God.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is clearly the same event as described earlier in which the world-order will be destroyed by fire. Thus, the event of verse 4, and of verse 7, are the same as here in verse 10. The phrase "day of the Lord" however throws people off, because they think there is only one event in all history which is "the day of the Lord". The truth is, the Bible speaks of numerous different judgments, as "the day of the Lord". The day of the Lord is the time of visitation in judgment, whereby God is glorified. My thread "The Son of Man" in both the Fellowship Hall and in the Apostolic Articles section details the Bible uses of the phrase "day of the Lord" as a common, Scriptural term for Divine Judgments of various types, in various places, and at various times. In other words', there is no single one "day of the Lord", any time the Lord executes His role as Judge is "the day of the Lord", according to the Biblical usage of the phrase.

In any event, this "day of the Lord" is the day in which the world-order will be destroyed by fire as opposed to water, and will occur simultaneously with the "judgment and perdition of ungodly men".

2 Peter 3:11-12 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I want to focus on that phrase, "hasting unto the coming of the day of God". Here it is in Greek:

σπεύδοντας τὴν παρουσίαν τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας

Here is Green's Literal translation:

2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the Day of God, through which the heavens having been set afire will be dissolved; and burning, the elements will melt?

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot (English) reads thus:

2Pe 3:12 expecting and hastening the arrival of the day of God, by which the heavens being set on fire shall be loosed, and the elements being destroyed by fire shall melt away?

The text literally says the saints, knowing what's coming, ought to be looking for (anticipating) AND HASTENING THE ARRIVAL OF THE DAY. That is, the saints are literally involved in some manner with bringing the arrival of the Day of God, we are supposed to be doing something(s) that actually hastens or brings closer this Day of Divine Judgment in which evil is destroyed and in which righteousness is the norm, not the exception.

In other words, the TIME of this Day of Judgment is conditional in some sense upon the activity of the saints.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Concerning "elements":

G4747
στοιχεῖον, τό:
I in a form of sun-dial, the shadow of the gnomon, the length of which in feet indicated the time of day, ὅταν ᾖ δεκάπουν τὸ ς . when the shadow is ten feet long, Ar. Ec. 652, v. Sch.; ὁπηνίκ' ἂν εἴκοσι ποδῶν . . τὸ ς. ᾖ Eub. 119.7, cf. Philem. 83 .
II element,
1 a simple sound of speech, as the first component of the syllable, Pl. Cra. 424d; τὸ ῥῶ τὸ ς . ib. 426d; γραμμάτων ς. καὶ συλλαβάς Id. Tht. 202e; ς. ἐστι φωνὴ ἀδιαίρετος Arist. Po. 1456b22; φωνῆς ς. καὶ ἀρχαὶ δοκοῦσιν εἶναι ταῦτ' ἐξ ὧν σύγκεινται αἱ φωναὶ πρώτων Id. Metaph. 998a23, cf. Gal. 15.6: — στοιχεῖα therefore, strictly, were different from letters ( γράμματα ), Diog.Bab.Stoic. 3.213, Sch.D.T. p.32, al., but are freq. not clearly distd. from them, as by Pl. Tht. l.c., Cra. 426d; τὰ ς. τῶν γραμμάτων τὰ τέτταρα καὶ εἴκοσι Aen.Tact. 31.21; ς. ε letter ε (in a filing-system), BGU 959.2 (ii A.D.); ἀκουόμενα ς . letters which are pronounced, A.D. Adv. 165.17; γράμματα and ς . are expressly identified by D.T. 630.32; the ς . and its name are confused by A.D. Synt. 29.1, but distd. by Hdn.Gr. ap. Choerob. in Theod. 1.340, Sch. D.T. l.c.: — κατὰ στοιχεῖον in the order of the letters, alphabetically, Rev_11:15 ( Ammian. ); dub.sens.in Plu. 2.422e.
2. in Physics, στοιχεῖα were the components into which matter is ultimately divisible, elements, reduced to four by Empedocles, who called them ῥιζὤματα, the word στοιχεῖα being first used (acc. to Eudem. ap. Simp. in Ph. 7.13 ) by Pl., τὰ πρῶτα οἱονπερεὶ ς, e)c w(=n h(mei=s te sugkei/meqa kaita)/lla Tht. 201e; τὰ τῶν πάντων ς . Plt. 278d; αὐτὰ τιθέμενοι ς. τοῦ παντός Ti. 48b, cf. Arist. GC 314a29, Metaph. 998a28, Thphr. Sens. 3, al., D.L. 3.24; ς. σωματικά Arist. Mete. 338a22, Thphr. Fr. 46; ἄτομα ς . Epicur. Ephesians 2 p.36U.; equivalent to ἀρχαί, Thales ap. Plu. 2.875c, Anaximand. ap. D.L. 2.1, Anon. ap. Arist. Ph. 188b28, Metaph. 1059b23, al.; but Arist. also distinguishes ς . from ἀρχή as less comprehensive, ib.1070b23; τὰ ς. ὕλη τῆς οὐσίας ib.1088b27; τρία τὰ ς . Id. Ph. 189b16; distd. from ἀρχή on other grounds by Stoic. 2.111; ς . used in three senses by Chrysipp., ib.136, cf. Zeno ib.1.24, al.; in Medicine, Gal. 6.3, 420, al., 15.7, al.; Αἰθέρ, κόσμου ς. ἄριστον Orph. H. 5.4; ἀνηλεὲς ς ., of the sea, Babr. 71.4; τὸ ς ., of the sea, Polem. Cyn. 44; ἄμφω τὰ ς ., i.e. land and sea, ib. 11, cf. Hdn. 3.1.5, Him. Ecc_2:18 .
3. the elements of proof, e.g. in general reasoning the πρῶτοι συλλογισμοί, Arist. Metaph. 1014b1; in Geometry, the propositions whose proof is involved in the proof of other propositions, ib. 998a26, 1014a36; title of geometrical works by Hippocrates of Chios, Leon, Theudios, and Euclid, Procl. in Euc. pp.66,67, 68F.: hence applied to whatever is one, small, and capable of many uses, Arist. Metaph. 1014b3; to whatever is most universal, e.g. the unit and the point, ib. 6; the line and the circle, Id. Top. 158b35; the τόπος (argument applicable to a variety of subjects), ib. 120b13, al., Rh. 1358a35, al.; στοιχεῖα τὰ γένη λέγουσί τινες Id. Metaph. 1014b10; τὸ νόμισμα ς. καὶ πέρας τῆς ἀλλαγῆς coin is the unit . . of exchange, Id. Pol. 1257b23; in Grammar, ς. τῆς λέξεως parts of speech, D.H. Comp. 2; but also, the letters composing a word, A.D. Synt. 313.7; letters of the alphabet, Diog. Bab. Stoic. 3.213; ς. τοῦ λόγου the elements of speech, viz. words, or the kinds of words, parts of speech, Thphr. ap. Simp. in Cat. 10.24, Chrysipp.Stoic. 2.45, A.D. Synt. 7.1, 313.6 .
4. generally, elementary or fundamental principle, ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν ς . X. Mem. 2.1.1; ς. χρηστῆς πολιτείας Isoc. 2.16; τὸ πολλάκις εἰρημένον μέγιστον ς . Arist. Pol. 1309b16; ς. τῆς ὅλης τέχνης Nicol.Com. 1.30, cf. Epicur. Ephesians 1 p.10U., Ephesians 3 p.59U., Phld. Rh. 1.127S., Gal. 6.306.
5. ἄστρων στοιχεῖα the stars, Man. 4.624; ς. καυσούμενα λυθήσεται 2Pet. 3.10, cf. 12; esp. planets, στοιχείῳ Διός PLond. 1.130.60 (i/ii A.D.); so perh. in Ep.Gal_4:3, Ep.Col_2:8; esp. a sign of the Zodiac, D.L. 6.102; of the Great Bear, PMag.Par. 1.1303.
6. ς. = ἀριθμός, as etym. of Στοιχαδεύς, Sch.D.T.p.192 H.

Not saying that is what Peter is referring to, just pointing out that the word in Greek has a range of meanings including that of the stars/planets/constellations.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

And Vincent's Word Studies offers this counter-point:

The Greek grammarians called the categories of letters arranged according to the organs of speech συστοιχίαι. Here the word is of course used in a physical sense, meaning the parts of which this system of things is composed. Some take it as meaning the heavenly bodies, but the term is too late and technical in that sense. Compare Mat_24:29, the powers of the heaven.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

I'm going to reread 2 Peter in the light of the comments you all have made and see if I can put it in context.

When the Bible says one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is one day in Peter, he is not saying that time to him is different than time to us. He's saying that it's no harder for God to cause a prophecy to be fulfilled after thousand years then it is for him to do so after one day. The issue was that so much time had passed and nothing had happened. So, he's trying to say that people scoff and think it won't come back past because so much time has passed.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The phrase "day of the Lord" is used very specifically by the Apostles. True the Old Testament references the day of the Lord in other circumstances as judgments to various nations.

However when we get to Jesus and the apostles it has a focus of his literal coming again.

Luke 17:22-24

22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

The day of Christ is the same as the day of the Lord in the New Testament. While certainly he was aware of the Old Testament scriptures concerning that day, he points us to the fact that it is HIS DAY.

Luke 17:28-30

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In our age of the New Testament Jesus is the focus of the day of the Lord. The day in which he comes AND ALSO brings judgment to the unbelievers.

Re: 2 Peter 3
 

Let us remember that Jesus is BOTH....Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

With that in mind let us examine the apostle Paul's teaching concerning that day.

1 Cor. 1:7

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pauls point here is the day of the LORD Jesus Christ. The day when he will come for the saints.

2 Cor. 1:13-4

13For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Again he points the Corinthians to "the end" which to him is the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

So to Paul the day of the Lord means both "the end" of the present age or "order" and the coming of Jesus.

Philippians 1:6

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phil. 1:9-10

9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phil. 2:16

16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Three times Paul mentions the "day of Christ" as the day of HIS COMING for the saints just to this one Church at Philippi. If you mentioned the day of the Lord to those disciples TO THEM you would have been talking about the time when Jesus was coming FOR THEM!

But....is Paul done yet teaching about the coming day of the Lord Jesus?

To the Thessalonians he writes:

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul here describes the personal coming of Jesus to receive his people to himself. The event in our time commonly called the rapture. What some fail to see is that Paul just TWO VERSES LATER calls this the DAY OF THE LORD!

1 Thess 5:1-3



1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So the apostle Paul did NOT separate the day of the Lord from the coming judgment. He packages them together. The day of the Lord TO HIM being that which he just described TWO VERSES EARLIER.....even the coming of Christ for the saints and judgment on those who were sleeping spiritually.

End of part 1.