The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

The majority of people with wrecked lives are not "ex oneness pentecostals". The majority of whacked out charismaniacs are not former UPCers.

The problem isn't the UPC or the "apostolic movement" in general. The problem is modern western civ is in ICU and the body is already starting to stink, but nobody has pulled the plug yet.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I'm talking specifically about people who were members of UPC churches, pastored UPC churches, evangelized in the UPC, graduated UPC Bible Churches, or were closely connected but independent brethren. Tons. Plenty just on AFF at some point in the last 10 years.

I'm not talking about charismatics,though many of these people have embraced those errors. I'm specifically talking about ex OPs. If they were never in a UPC/OP church that baptized in Jesus name and believed tongues was the initial evidence, then I am not referring to them. Just to clarify.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Yes, and I'm pointing out that the Insanity™ is a built in feature of modern life, not the UPC.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

We are saved by obedient faith, faith that results in obeying the gospel
we are saved via being led by the Spirit, resulting in the fruit of the Spirit (holiness).

We are saved by faith not by works of the flesh, But faith without works is dead being alone.

Now what if someone thinks that following the rules saves them. What if they get confused and try to be saved by their own efforts?
Or they forget that they can not do it on their own, but only in relationship with Christ, bible, prayer, fasting, fellowship can they be saved?

What if some people dropped their standards and recklessly lost their way?

What if some people now are so distracted by the culture, social media, tv, movies, ect, that they are not maintaining a saving relationship with Christ?

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I'd say the problem comes with pride and arrogance In people wanting to create a hybrid religion. Schismatics, and reprobates they aren't just leaving our churches they are leaving all churches, and from every walk of life. Only reason we seem to get highlighted with this hog wash is people know who has the truth it's evident. So we look bad, because of that.

But there's Evangelical preachers going athiest and churches are allowing them to stay and pastor the church. We haven't even began reaching levels of depravity like that, but the Oneness movement gets attention because people know who they come to for prayer when they want answers, they know where people are being healed, and they know who to go to if people are possessed, and they need the devil to be casted out. Since the movement has always been on the other side of the spectrum from the world like night and day, to see any part of it edging toward the world is shocking. But to every other religion and denomination it's normal by this day and hour. Nobody is going to talk about that. It's the status quo and has been for close to a 100 years.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Could be one or a combination of the following:
- They probably didn't have an abiding relationship with Christ
- They were probably in the church for the "wrong reasons" before they left
- Secret sins they nurtured while they were still active church goers
- Lack of support system and accountability after they decided to leave
- Losing their Christian identity (they probably identified with their former church more that they identified with Christ)
- Being deceived

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Yes all the above. And more.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Why did you leave?

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I was bitter. :heeheehee

That's always the reason right? Lol.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Yah it’s sad when folks get carnal and backslide. Usually they do go to the extreme.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

After a time of bitterness, there can be healing:highfive

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

True there could be but most just find other people with the same issues and fuel it.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Ok a serious answer.

I left for mostly doctrinal reasons. I wasn't mad, wasn't mistreated, wasn't craving the world. I was happy in life, I was treated well, and had many friends, essentially all my friends, we're OPs. It was probably the absolute hardest decision of my life. It was met with derision and ridicule. My wife was hurt and felt betrayed by me (because of the way my pastor reacted). I became the enemy literally overnight. But I'm getting ahead of myself, this happened after I left.

I left for doctrinal reasons. Through study of the Word I came to the conclusion and conviction that the Bible teaches the sinner is justified by faith in Christ. Thus I believe the sinner is saved at repentance. And while I believe they should be obedient and be baptized, and believe baptism should be done invoking Jesus name, I do not believe the act of baptism bestows salvation. I also don't believe baptism in titles is invalid, not because I don't believe Jesus name baptism is the original historical formula (I do), but because I believe the sinner is saved prior to baptism, and what is important in baptism is the sinners faith in and obedience to Christ, NOT the phrase the preacher uses.

Secondly, I am not convinced at all that tounges is the only initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe that when God justifies the sinner, he also saves the sinner and at that very moment adopts the repentant sinner AND sends His Spirit to indwell the repentant sinner who becomes a child of God. Thus I deny the initial evidence doctrine.

Thirdly,while I do appreciate standards, and prefer women wear skirts/dresses, no make up, no jewelry, have uncut hair, etc. I don't believe that these things are necessary to salvation. Modesty is biblical. However standards as they were taught (still taught in some places) turn into a legalistic works righteousness system. So I deny the necessity of standards for salvation.

These are the big reasons. I suppose if I had been able to find a one step oneness church I would have possibly attended there instead of a Reformed church.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Hope you one day make it back from being deceived.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Decieved....by the scriptures?

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Guess so the Bible does speak of a strong delusion..... it’s pretty obvious in scripture that repentance is death and just the first part of obeying the gospel. You know that....

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Where in the Book of Acts was one person saved at Repentance? And do we throw out Mark 16:16, and 1 Peter 3:21?

I know this is off topic, but you are saying this is a Biblical assertion. So I'm just asking for Biblical proof and where in the Book of Acts did you draw this conclusion from?

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Exactly. And we can plenty more scriptures to that list...... he knows this. Hopefully his pride in “ breaking away “ won’t keep him out long.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

So considering your own experience may be that of those who leave the Oneness movement a majority of them dont leave it to go and do crazy things. Maybe they also have doctrinal issues.

My situation is different than yours yet similar. I hold firmly to the Oneness message. I believe Acts 2:38 is the full standard for salvation in the New Covenant Church.

I disagree with most Oneness Churches on the rapture (myself being post trib), the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement, and sinless perfection.

I disagree with their stand against beards and the doctrine that it is a sin for women to trim their hair.

These things have made it very difficult for me to tie myself to a Oneness Church. I think I ran through the best Trinitarian Churches available before I started into Oneness so it does not occur to me to ever be a member of one again.

Not saying I would never visit one.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Not to Mike that's the most important things to him. Acts 2:38 then Beards, and Post Trib Rapture.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Still holding on here. :thumbsup

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Like I’ve told people... if you can’t shave it and that is your biggest gripe you deeper issues and you will conquer it when you shave it.

I’m the odd ball and all my friends are pre and I lean more post... not a heaven or hell issue so I ain’t worried about it.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I can agree on all points there. MTD believes it's a heaven or hell issue though. I just hope his interpretation isn't wrong.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Well yes if truth doesnt matter it would be silly.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I too have friends who have left the UPC, due to what I would call "liberal leanings".
Some have gone off the deep end and others have stayed true to the basic Acts 2:38 message.
However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.
I do not see the UPC as becoming more liberal however, it seems to have stabilized after the loss of some to the WPF.
My vision may be somewhat skewed, as most of my UPC connections are in the South and Midwest.
But, I believe both orgs are doing fine!

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I've had close to a couple dozen personal friends leave oneness A/P churches over the years (almost all were UPC). Most left over standards issues -- dress/hair or tv. It's sad to see that with all of them, it hasn't ended there but they also no longer believe in the new birth salvation (repentance, baptism and infilling of the HG).

It seems there's a link between leaving over standards and not believing in the new birth salvation. I've thought about it a lot, because personally, I don't agree with the UPC on a few standards issues; however, one thing I have never wavered on is new birth salvation. It's disconcerting to me that all whom I know personally who left over standards have also stopped preaching the new birth and instead believe baptism is just a public display of commitment to Christ and that the HG is just some extra benefit available to those who are already saved.

Perhaps the thing which has kept me is that while I don't agree on some issues, I have continued to fellowship A/P churches and have not become friendly with churches who do not believe in new birth salvation. I simply refuse to attend or visit a church which doesn't believe the oneness or new birth salvation.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Yes. Even if they hang on, the next generation doesn't tend to fare to well. This is a big concern of mine. Teaching my children. Tonight we had a little New Year's Bible study. The topic? Discussion of Johnathan Edwards resolutions from the 1720's. Excellent stuff.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

This is also a problem across the board, regardless of denomination. Church groups across western civilization are hemorrhaging at the seams, the kids hit 18 move out of the house and give up on church. Many give up on Christianity altogether. Many others give up on Churchianity.

Churches are increasingly being viewed as unnecessary and as not having anything worthwhile to offer.

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

sin brings forth death, the wages of sin any sin, small secret sins, participating in sin (even vicariously) via our culture, media, ect, kills a person off bit by bit.
You can't be conformed to the world 4 days/week and live for God 3 days/week and not pay the price.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I agree. Sadly, from my experience churches teach very little about holiness lifestyle and the home. Some marriages are in shambles and breaking up. No teaching on marriage and godly homes. Look the part, shout and give your tithes all the while not seeing the great need of the hour.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Couldn't agree more:yourock

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

Man...families need to get really honest with fellow church goers, christians....so much focus on wearing that mask like everything is ok. Families are hurting and struggling under that mask trying to maintain that stepford image


Thats one thing we*me and katherine* have changed about ourselves....we dont try to pretend anymore....we are brutally honest about our pasts and our struggles even to the point where we might even be seen in a bad light or be judged.


We are honest because thats what we wished people would have been with us....honest...wish we could have seen those struggles and could have seen His redemption in the lives of others more openly.


It would have went a long way to helping us climb out if the hole because we'd see living proof of the battles of others being won...so now....we try to be to others what we wished we had.


We have seen God just open some major doors for people we have encouraged and walked beside and their victories have further emboldened us to continue on.


Driving a lot more and I have lots of time to think and meditate and let God speak. Last night while pondering all of this in the context of "They were made overcomers by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony." God spoke to me and said,"You were made to overcome." Those words caused something to click in me and I looked back at every battle...everytime I thought "Well this is it" and there was this surge of power and boldness that came over me while driving drunks all night last night...I realized...I AM a overcomer and its through the words of OUR testimony that helps give others the strength to be overcomers as well.


You wanna get bold? Get sure. Lately thats one thing I have settled in my mind is that the hand of the Lord does not wane but He is able to keep what has been committed into His hand.


Every battle seems to bring greater courage and even though some "wounds" seem fatal they are not.


Upon research into my Scottish ancestry I found the Clan Stewart crest...on it is a Latin inscription that reads.


"Virescit Vulnere Virtus"


"Courage Grows Strong At a Wound"


As someone who struggled with fear and anxiety this spoke to me in a powerful way....I began to think of my life and the growth of boldness and courage and I began to think of all the times its written in scripture,"Fear not, be of good cheer, fear not and be of good courage" in the context of that motto.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I know I do not post often - more reading and trying to see other points of view on this site. There are more than a couple observations I have had in the 25+ years of being part of the UPCI:

1. Subjects like Holiness and the manifestations of it seem subjective in specific applications of Biblical principle - can vary greatly from church to church, and can also be geographic as well.

2. Even though some feel UPC is more liberal, in my state of MD I do know that we are really good at preaching and teaching what to do/not do - we are not very good at demonstrating and teaching the love of God - this is a broad statement, I know.

3. Demanding conformance does not equal transformation of thought or spirit.

4. We preach that we can't save ourselves, but that is not what is practiced by most - fit, form, and function usually are emphasized, even though it is under the premise of God working through us.

5. I have known and met many who deal with great depression, and some even medicated - this does not get talked about much, but I have seen a great deal of this.

6. There are many who do leave, who do not go to some extreme - yes some do, but not all. There are also many ministers who stay and are affiliated who do not believe or practice all of the AOF.

These are just a few things, and I'm not being critical - I love the people and respect the elders that I know. I have stayed in spite of quite a lot, including my own battles and issues both personally and doctrinally. Because I have been wrong about many things, I trust God to direct and have refused to just walk away - I would that God would correct me in my own struggles, then to make a decision that could possibly take me and my family out altogether.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I am really frustrated when it comes to church.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

why?

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

A whole list of things. The current state of our assembly for starters.

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

:highfive

Re: The reality of the slippery slope?
 

I used to laugh off slippery slope arguments. They are a fallacy afterall. But I no longer find slippery slopes to be a laughing matter.

Slippery slopes are a real phenomenon. They occur because the foundation of a belief has deteriorated into tradition. Once that foundation is tradition and it gets washed away by an argument that reveals it's just tradition then the foundation is lost and if a replacement isn't quickly found then more and more beliefs that were built upon that foundation also crumble.

I believe standards at this point for most churches are based on tradition. Since whatever true foundation that started those standards has deteriorated into just a tradition then it's easy to show that standards are just a tradition and since tradition for the sake of tradition isn't revered in our movement then all the standards start crumbling away.

However, this crumbling of fundamental beliefs also causes other closely related beliefs to be examined and since one belief was based on tradition it becomes much easier to become convinced other fundamental beliefs were also wrong, etc. Before long you see people sliding away from almost everything they once believed, all because one foundation of our beliefs deteriorated into just being tradition.

The cure is to restore the foundation to something that isn't tradition and to remove any beliefs that are only propped up the current tradition based foundation.