The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy Ghost
 

Did Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost before being baptized in Jesus name prove water baptism is not necessary for salvation? THIS STUDY by DD Benincasa answers this often asked question.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

The second is Dominic. The first is Doctor.

:heeheehee

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Nope it proved you need both no matter what.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

What it shows is that God apparently will forgive someone's sins prior to water baptism if they have come to faith but are in a situation where believers will not lead them to baptism first, as was most likely Cornelius's situation. Of course the normal place for the faith and repentance that bring the remission of sins to be expressed is water baptism, but God's actions in Acts 10 show He is not bound by that if a someone is in a situation like Cornelius's. The only thing that brings the forgiveness of sins at baptism is true faith and repentance, not the ceremonial act itself. If someone thinks that Cornelius's sins were still not remitted yet even at the point when he received the Spirit, then he or she has to believe what I find impossible to believe that Cornelius was still lost till he got in the water since his sins were still against him

Cornelius's situation was unusual and called for an unusual experience. He was a Gentile. Gentiles had not come into the church yet. The conference in Acts 15 had not occurred yet and the gathered leaders had not concluded that Gentiles did not have to become Jews first and embrace the Torah before becoming followers of Christ. Most Jewish Christians would not have baptized Cornelius and his household without a revelational action from God authorizing it, so God gave the Spirit to them immediately upon them coming to faith and forgave their sins before being baptized ultimately to show that Gentiles who came to faith in Christ were accepted as they were without having to embrace the Torah first. After the Gentiles received the Spirit, no Jewish Christian could deny that they should be baptized. Cornelius's situation did not devalue baptism or show that baptism is not the normal place for saving faith to be expressed and the remission of sins to occur.

Cornelius's experience was not intended to be paradigmatic--we do not see it happen again in Acts, and we do not see it preached that the order of baptism to Spirit baptism doesn't matter, though Pentecostals generally seem to think the order doesn't matter and, in my experience, seem to prefer the experience of Cornelius to the order of Acts 2:38. Countless times I've seen people try to get people to repent apart from baptism and to seek to receive the Spirit, and if that doesn't quite work out, then urge them to go ahead and be baptized.

The normal pattern is to repent and be baptized and then seek the baptism of the Spirit. This avoids the theological conundrum of standard Oneness Pentecostalism's soteriology of having people filled with the Spirit but still apparently lost since their sins are still against them till they get in the water to be baptized for the remission of sins. I, for example, received that Spirit during a revival service I was invited to, but nobody got around to telling me about the necessity of baptism in Jesus' name for many months after that. I had been baptized in a Baptist church years before this, and I was obviously growing in my faith and loved my experience in the Spirit, so I didn't think I needed to be rebaptized. As it turned out I immediately said yes when I was finally taught about Jesus's name baptism and was asked if I wanted to be baptized to obey Scripture. I cannot believe I was lost for those many months simply because I was in a situation where believers failed to lead me to baptism sooner. What seems apparent is that God forgave me of my sins the night I repented and was filled with the Spirit.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Correct. I noted in my post that for most Pentecostals in my experience this appears to be the preferred order and what is encouraged, and I noted that I experienced this as well. I'm not saying that it can't happen. I am saying that it's not the biblical norm, though, again, it seems the UPCI at any rate makes it a norm, and it raises a significant question about baptism.

The order that was commanded in Acts 2:38 is what was practiced everywhere else in the Book of Acts, and this shows that there was something unique about Cornelius's experience, being a Gentile, that led God to give him the Spirit before baptism.

I am also pointing out that this order of experience shows that God in certain situations apparently forgives sins at faith and repentance if the person seeking him is in a situation where other believers will not lead him in the Acts 2:38 order; otherwise, you have a situation where a person somehow is given the HOLY Spirit while still remaining unclean in sin--and hell-bound till he is led to water baptism.

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Sin has always been forgiven at true repentance. Remission of sins is what happens at baptism not forgiveness of sins.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

As Diakonos said, there is no difference. It has been very common in the Oneness Pentecostal movement to assert what you have asserted here, but unfortunately this view cannot be based on a study of the Greek NT. Unfortunately, the KJV translators often used a variety of translations for a single Hebrew or Greek word, as they themselves note in the preface to their translation, which in the case of remission and forgiveness has led to the mistaken view that an actual difference exists between these two words.

it's too bad it can't be maintained. It was the only way to explain the scenario I have mentioned in my previous posts. Presented with the situation of someone being filled with the Spirit before they were baptized, it was helpful to be able to say, "Oh, well the reason that could happen is that God had forgiven them and so could fill them with the Spirit, but they still needed to get baptized so those sins would be remitted--fully removed from their account." Unfortunately this interpretation is invalid.

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Those hearing Peter on the Day of Pentecost asked how they could be saved from the guilt of their sin. He answered them with the Acts 2:38 message of salvation. The question here is whether the “remission” in Acts 2:38 is the same word as “forgiveness.”

The first evidence they're the same is found in the Greek word aphesis (see Strong’s G859). The King James Version (KJV) translates aphesis as “remission” in Acts 2:38. The KJV also translates aphesis six times as “forgiveness” (See Mark 3:29, Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14). Thus, aphesis means both “remission” and “forgiveness” in the KJV. This same word is also translated as both “deliverance” and “liberty” in Luke 4:18. The reason for these differences is purely due to a translator’s preference when trying to convey the meaning of the context where aphesis is found. Therefore, aphesis can properly be translated as “remission” or as “forgiveness.”

Another evidence for their similarity is found in the biblical meaning of “remission” and forgiveness.” For this, I'll use the Webster's Dictionary of American English (1828) definition. Please, pay special attention to the words I underlined.

Thus, remission means forgiveness, and forgiveness means remission, so they carrying the same message.

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Jesus said many would be lost who nevertheless cast out demons in Jesus' name, etc. These were people who professed that Jesus was Lord.

So apparently one can not only "have the Holy Ghost" and be lost, but even be baptized and functioning within the visible church, professing Jesus is Lord, and be lost. Jesus did not revoke their salvation, He said He would say to them "I never knew you." Meaning, they were never saved to begin with. (Matt 7:23)

Paul taught likewise that one can operate in all the gifts and still be lost (1 Cor 13).

Cornelius' experience was indeed a departure from the norm. But it was not for the purpose of showing that forgiveness operates independently from baptism.

The unproven assumption is that one must be forgiven before receiving the Spirit. I find a total of 0 verses which say that. What is stated is that the world cannot receive the Spirit, thus it seems that being called is the prerequisite. Yet, many are called, but few are chosen. And, the calling must be made sure (established, made certain and effectual).

Being called occurs prior to being forgiven. It is thus possible to receive the Spirit prior to bring forgiven.

But perhaps more importantly we should consider why the Bible does not view salvation as a series of steps, like we often do. So that we see "problems and conundrums" where the Bible does not. Biblically, salvation is more holistic. "What if X but not Y?" is more along the lines of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

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Good afternoon, Bro. Esaias!

I have always been puzzled by these passages. How can one profess Christ and be used mightily yet still be lost? I have wondered if such folks are those who did all of these things, but then decided to just wait it out until the end. For instance, I've heard stories of revivals with repentance, baptism, miracles, etc, but whose participants, years later, are on spiritual life support. They still profess Jesus as Lord, but all they can do is bark about rules and "the good old days." If we are to be epistles read of all men, these folks read more like Stephen King novels than the Gospel of Jesus.

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Jesus identified those people as "workers of iniquity", or "workers of lawlessness". He prefaced His statements with "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom, but (rather) those who do the will of my Father." So these are folks who are not living obediently to the will of God, they practice lawlessness (sin, transgression of the law). Lawlessness means without law and is a Biblical term for those who transgress the commandments of God with impunity, presumptuously, as if they were under no authority but their own devising. Autonomy, instead of theonomy. Rule or law of self instead of rule by God.

The new covenant work of the Spirit includes writing the laws of God in the minds and hearts, that is it produces obedience to God from the heart. If that does not occur, then one is not "saved", although such a one may have all the outward appearances (spiritual effects, part of the church, professing to know the Lord, etc).

The false believers in Jude's epistle were able to mingle seemingly undetected amongst first century apostolic believers. So they looked the part, but their heart and lifestyle wasn't reflecting God's revealed will for people.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

I've always understood it like this...

Prior to Cornelius' salvation we read about him. And this is what we're told...

Acts 10:1-6
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Based on the above passage, this is what we know about Cornelius before his being born again...

- Cornelius was a Gentile centurion.
- Cornelius was a devout man, fearing God, along with all his house.
- Cornelius was a generous man who gave alms to the people.
- Cornelius was a man of prayer.
- Cornelius was visited by an angel in a vision while in prayer.
- Cornelius humbly inquired regarding the angel's purpose.
- The angel states that Cornelius' prayers have been noted by God.
- The angel tells Cornelius to send for Peter, and that Peter would tell Cornelius what he must do.

Here, we have an unsaved man of faith. A devout, but merely religious man. Based on the clues in the text, it would appear that Cornelius had come to believe in the God of the Jews. This man's devotion clearly caught God's attention, and so God sent an angel to Cornelius to tell Cornelius what he must do. Let's read about what Cornelius did next...

Acts 10:7-8
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

Based on the above, Cornelius immediately tells the experience to two of his servants, and a soldier, all of whom waited on Cornelius continually. Cornelius then sends them to Joppa to bring Peter.

Now, I want to mention something. Most of the time we think of repentance in the context of an "altar call" with sobbing and snotty crying over sin and a pleading for salvation. But repentance is a disposition of heart. It is a heart that desires to turn from one's current life to a life of obedience and pleasing God. These actions are the actions of a man who is repentant and desiring all that God has for him. He knows his life is about to change. He knows the lives of his household are about to change. He's filled with faith, desire, and expectancy. I find it hard to argue that this disposition doesn't illustrate a repentant heart. A heart that is broken wide open, ready to receive whatever God has for him.

Concerning Peter's interaction with Cornelius after his vision, we read...

Acts 10:17-26
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

I like this passage because we read how Cornelius' servants met up with Peter and how they explained why they had come. I also like how Peter takes them in and lodges them. On the very next day, they all set off to Caesarea and meet with the waiting Cornelius. Now, note the disposition of Cornelius. When Peter walks in, Cornelius meets Peter, and then falls down at his feet and worships him. Cornelius is utterly undone, and has been since the angel spoke to him. Cornelius doesn't know what to do next, and all he can think of is to bow down and worship Peter. I imagine this as a sincere and tear filled meeting, with Cornelius on his knees before Peter, confessing his unworthiness. Of course, Peter takes Cornelius and lifts him up, confessing, "Stand up, I myself also am a man." Cornelius was ripe for a Savior. His disposition is one of repentance and brokenness, a readiness and expectation for all God has for him. Perhaps with what little he knew of Judaism, maybe Cornelius thought Peter was the Messiah. But the behavior of Cornelius is one of repentance, brokenness, and expectation.

If we continue to read the chapter, we see Cornelius and Peter both sharing their visions with one another. Then Peter begins preaching...

Acts 10:34-44
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Based on Peter's testimony below, the Holy Ghost began to fall on the Gentiles listening as he began speaking...

Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Cornelius, and the Gentiles present, were clearly waiting with great expectancy and anticipation regarding what Peter was to tell them. This faith and expectancy demonstrates their desire to turn from their current manner and beliefs to the truth Peter was to present them. As soon as Peter began speaking, the Holy Spirit began moving as He so desired, and all the Gentiles were immediately filled with the Holy Spirit in this atmosphere of faith and expectancy.

Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Next we read how Peter admonished that these Gentiles should be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So, we see Cornelius and the Gentiles who were waiting with faith and expectancy receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with speaking in other tongues, prior to their water baptism.

Cornelius' actions demonstrate faith. Cornelius received the word of the angel and was nearly bursting at the seams to receive the words of Peter. Cornelius was so ready to receive all God had for him that he received the Holy Spirit as Peter began speaking.

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And the skinny answer is, the Roman God Fearer got the Holy Ghost first to make a point to the Judean Law Keeper newly baptized Christians. That the dog, stones, and unclean beasts are accepted by God.

thank you for playing.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3orif...z18k/giphy.gif

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

I think this is a much better way of saying what I intended. The folks I have in mind seem to have let real faith deteriorate into mere mental ascent. I'm not sure how people can profess to have the love of Christ while berating others over every misstep made. I certainly don't mean turn a blind eye or condone the misbehavior, but if someone is living to shout "gotcha!" they probably aren't doing that heart thing very well.

Sorry, I probably wandered off into left field with that, but I'm grouchy today. Ha!

Thank you as always for the response, my friend!

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:highfive

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

These texts do not involve people, like Cornelius, with true faith turning to Christ, and so I don't think they really speak to the issue of when someone is first saved.

Yes, that was not the purpose of God baptizing them with the Spirit before baptism; he was making a point to the Jewish Christians about Gentiles turning to him without needing to become Jews first, but it does imply that God can forgive sins apart from baptism if he chooses.

It's no assumption. The order of Acts 2:38 is not haphazard as if Peter just happened to mention repentance first and receiving the gift of the Spirit last. No, there is a a logical flow to the order he gives. The order is significant and shows that the prerequisite to receiving the baptism of the Spirit is forgiveness of sins. It's not surprising, then, that we never see people being filled with the Spirit prior to repentance/baptism in the rest of Acts, with the exception of Cornelius. The Scriptural norm is established by Acts 2:38 and the rest of the conversion accounts in Acts. We should follow this norm. The normal place that God has established for expressing saving faith and repentance and receiving the forgiveness of sins is water baptism. Cornelius's experience shows that God can and will grant forgiveness before baptism under certain extenuating circumstances, such as what Cornelius faced. I am not, however, authorized to preach exceptions to the rule. I am to preach as Peter did in Acts 2:38.

I don't think trying to determine the moment someone is redeemed is the equivalent of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is a specific moment when we die to sin and are raised again. There is a specific moment we are circumcised in the Spirit. There is a specific moment when the Father transfers a person into the kingdom of the Son of his love. It is not gradual, as if someone eases into it. There is a moment, and I want to know what this is.

The Bible never says that you can be forgiven of your sins and at that moment still be lost. The Bible never says you can receive the Spirit and at that moment still be lost. So any teaching that leads to or suggests the possibility of these things happening cannot be true.

As it is, that's what the standard Oneness view of conversion leads to. Someone can repent and be baptized and be forgiven, but still be lost till they are baptized in the Spirit and speak in tongues. Conversely, someone can be baptized in the Spirit and have experienced the fullness of the Spirit in conversion, but still be lost till they are baptized in water. There is no way of getting around these conclusions.

I'm not aware of any other teaching on the conversion experience (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) that leads to these possibilities.

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They speak to people who confess Jesus as Lord (which in the first century context implies water baptism, as the idea one could be a Christian apart from baptism was introduced around the 17th century) and who work miracles, cast out demons, and prophesy in His Name, all of which takes place via the operation of the Spirit. Yet, these people not only "wound up lost" but were never saved to begin with, the Lord says "I never knew you".



No, it does not imply that. In fact, the context, and the angel's words to Cornelius, and Peter's response to the incident demonstrate quite the opposite, that baptism is for the remission of sins, even in Cornelius' case.



No, if anything it shows the prerequisite is "repent AND BE BAPTISED". It doesn't say "be forgiven so you can receive the Spirit". It says repent and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Spirit. You shall and so you can are two different things, one is not the other.

Absolutely, I agree 100%.


This is where you interject a theological interpreration into the text. No such thing is stated in Scripture, nor is it ever discussed or explained in the way you are presenting it, with the conclusion(s) you are drawing.

Exactly.



Which is in water baptism.

Which appears to take place in baptism.

Which according to Scripture is conjoined with being placed into Christ, which parallels being placed into Moses (1 Cor 10) which requires "water and Spirit" (John 3:5). In other words, it is identified with new birth or regeneration, which is identified with water baptism AND receiving the Spirit, which is viewed in Scripture not as separable events but as a whole (a unity, being born again, converted, "saved").

Scripture presents (initial) salvation or conversion as an effect or result of repentance, baptism in the Lord's name, and receiving the Spirit. We habitually break this soteriological unity into component parts or " steps" but I believe that is unscriptural (since the apostles never did such).

Being forgiven but still lost... receiving the Spirit but still lost... are erroneous ways of thinking and speaking, due to separating the unity of conversion into "steps". Common, but erroneous. Your attempt to solve the error by.positing remission of sins prior to baptism is just another species of the same basic error.

See above.

Catholic, Orthodox, many Protestants, and most if not all Campbellites believe one receives the Spirit in the act of baptism. Other Protestants and many Baptists believe one receives the Spirit upon initial belief. Other Protestants and some Baptists believe one is born again of the Spirit prior to believing (Reformed, Calvinists, etc).

None of them believe receiving the Spirit is accompanied by external, visible (actually, audible) physical phenomena.

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Yes, and Peter commanded these Gentiles to get baptized in Jesus name.

Tongues are proofs, baptism is the command.

As you well know men will shred scripture to confetti, and save no one.

Yet, the Bible is simple, and when the Gentiles spoke in tongues, Peter looked for the thumbs up from the Judeans. When they gave him the ok, he commanded baptism in Jesus name. Therefore, when some get the Holy Ghost before baptism, they MUST get baptized in Jesus name. That's book, chapter, and verse.

Whatever anyone else wants to zigzag around that, it's all on them.

Trying to figure out how I can explain Aunt Bitty Joe got the Holy Ghost and never got baptized but is in heaven, is dumb.

She didn't make it.

But I got to move forward, and while everyone else is arguing, I'm still going to move forward.

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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

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I got a huge wake up call years ago. I was sitting with vegans and primal diet eaters. Two farthest points of the spectrum. Well, they locked horns in passive discussion, and were trying to convert each other. It isn't about who is right, it isn't about us. I have been called every name in the book, I'm only called a Preterist when my opposition has run out of things to discuss. It is used in place for a curse word, in their minds. Just like calling someone a Pharisees, they just run out of real things to say.

Making excuses because MeeMaw and PeePaw were supposedly saved when they were Christian Scientists? Aunt Willa Mae Jean was a devoted Catholic prayed more than any human alive, was able to spit holy water 50 yards and knock a mosquito off Uncle Thibodeaux's nose. So how can she not be seated at the right hand of the Father? This is across the board. Look, newspaper says Benjamin Netanyahu is personally overseeing the building of a temple in Jerusalem. The Jordanians and all Muslims of the world want him and the Israelis to remove the Dome of the Rock and build baby build. Does that make it Biblically so? No, but sadly people are faithless, and have to jab the Word of God with some ecclesiastical steroids. To make them believe in whatever doctrine makes them comfortable.

You meaning to tell me Sister Biddy Joe wasn't saved when she died? She spoke in tongues more than ye all! She was meaner than a cat stuck under the porch, but she prayed in tongues, she spoke prophecies in tongues. She spoke in tongues all over the place, and shouted all over the sanctuary until her bobby pins and oatmeal box launched across the pews. She was in the prayer room from dark to dawn. Brother B!!! How can you say Sister Biddy Joe wasn't saved!! :foottap

Sorry, but its the Word that saves us, not our experiences viewed through our bias religious ecclesiastical eyes.

Someone calls you a pharisee, then know that the discussion is over.

They won't eat meat, only vegetables Romans 14:2

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Well, that is a Pentecostal thing, and especially among the Spanish Pentecostals. Female preachers is proven like someone dying without water baptism in Jesus name. It is because you can point one out therefore it must be so. No, that isn't logical, that isn't evidence for a document which was written thousands of years ago. If Jesus returned and entered a church service, there would be men and women who would throw Him out. But skippy quick!

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Your not alone. I married into a Spanish Pastor's home. That is one subject we dont see eye to eye on.

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Elder Claudio Carozzi wrote a great Spanish Bible study on No Woman Preachers.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Again, no one disputes that. The dispute is with the way you interpret it. You think that person is still lost until he is baptized. You believe that a person can be born of the Spirit but still be dead in sin if he has not been baptized yet. You believe that someone can receive the fullness of the Spirit but at that very moment still be lost and have the full record of her sins still against her if she has not been baptized. It doesn't make sense. Not surprisingly no other group in the history of Christianity has ever believed someone could receive the baptism of the Spirit but at that very moment still be unforgiven.

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You think it is biblical that someone can receive the life-giving Spirit and at that very moment still be lost if he has not been baptized yet because he is actually still dead in sin. I don't think that is biblical or logical. As I noted to Diakonos, it is not surprising that no other group in the history of Christianity has ever believed you could be born of the Spirit but at that very moment still be unforgiven and thus dead in sin.

So we're at an impasse.

Here is the implication of the most common Oneness Pentecostal view of the conversion experience: someone may be resurrected in Christ at the moment he receives the Spirit, but if he has not yet been baptized, he never actually died or was buried with Christ to begin with. He is raised with Christ, but now needs to die and be buried with Christ.

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So is the question whether or not "Born again of water" is baptism? Or is the question about baptism being for the remission of sins?

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It is my understanding that when one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit they are regenerated (John 3:5-8; John 6:63; Titus 3:5). This means that new life has been spiritually imparted to their spirit (born of spirit). Of course, in order to receive this regeneration, they had to be previously justified by faith as a part of their repentance.

With the above in mind we can say that according to the Bible (not feelings) anyone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit has experienced the biblical realities of both justification and regeneration.

According to Scripture, what soteriological reality is experienced in water baptism? Most will say "the remission of sins". But that was the result of one who has obeyed the command to "Repent, and be baptized..." The operative action, in "Repent, and be baptized", being repentance. Does baptism serve any other function beyond serving as an indication of one's repentance through obedience?

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I think you answered your own question with the phrase "the remission of sins". Other than being identified with Christ in his death and burial through baptism among other "functions" of baptism. I think you gave the greatest function of baptism and that is simply the remission of sins.

Remission of sins is the greatest soteriological reality in my opinion, keep the understanding simple and the simple will understand.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

The testimonies in the book of acts and also the ones in our churches doesn't follow an "order" but a "way" of salvation.

You need baptism to have the blood of the lamb applied to your life, so your sins are forgiven. Sometimes we try to put God in an analytical box. He knows what the person is going to do after he is born again of the Spirit. He sees the heart. I'm almost certain that if somebody is filled by the Spirit with the evidences of speaking in tongues, and it is presented with baptism in Jesus name, and rejects it, it won't please God. At that point that person may be playing with its own salvation.
Now if the person is not presented with the baptism in Jesus' name, but instead is baptized in the triune formula, then I leave that judgement to God, who is powerful to bring truth seeking, repented people to the full knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I received the Spirit baptism in an Assembly of God Pentecostal Church with clear evidences of speaking in tongues, and the signs that followed after that. However, I wasn't baptized in Jesus' name until 4 years later when I ended up in a UPCI church.
During all that time, I kept a relationship with God, and when I was presented with the baptism in Jesus' name, at first I argued it, but then the Spirit of God felt in that meeting and told me clearly to listen to them who were teaching me the Oneness Pentecostal doctrine. I obeyed and was baptized in Jesus' name the very next day.

God said that repentance, baptism in Jesus' name for the forgiveness of sins, and being filled of the Spirit is necessary for Salvation. And he left us testimonies to not set an order, but leave it as a way (all three must be completed). Simple.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Baptism doesn't provide the remission of sin in and of itself. The command from Peter was to, "repent, and be baptized", repentance being the operative term.

The theological conundrum we're all struggling to come to terms with is the notion that baptism brings the remission/forgiveness of sin. That becomes problematic. Because if one receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism, they have experienced justification and regeneration... without even having their sin forgiven. Which is an impossibility.

I contend that water baptism is a command. And refusal to obey this command within a reasonable time will cost one their soul.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

I think we are misunderstanding “forgiveness”.
When you repent you sort of restore the relationship between you and God and He starts guiding you to truth by his Spirit. God will hear and guide hungry and contrite souls.
Even though, you are “forgiven” in the sense of “we are starting to get along here”, somebody still needs to pay the price for your sins. That’s what baptism do. It applies the blood of the lamb on you so your sins (or actual debts) are forgiven.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

[Heb 9:19-22 NASB] 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, [one may] almost [say,] all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
(... same book and context...)
[Heb 10:22 NASB] 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

- The lamb is sacrificed, the blood shed, then applied to the people for the forgiveness of sins.

[Act 2:38 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Act 22:16 NASB] 16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

- The Christ was sacrificed, blood shed, then the blood is applied in baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

It is like if after the sacrifice is done, you must have the blood applied to actually enjoy the blessing of forgiveness that comes with it. The sacrifice alone was not enough for your salvation. Saying "I'm sorry" was not enough, for the old testament or for the new testament. The Old Testament sacrifices, as the Hebrew author states it, was a shadow of Christ for you to understand. So if you want to understand the new covenant, and the implication of Jesus sacrifice and application for you, you look at the old testament.

Hebrew author was even making the point that the sacrifice of the animals didn't actually pay the debt, but that's another discussion.

And regarding God approaching and guiding the humbled and contrite (broken because of guilt) hearts wanting to get close to him and learn his ways, there are tons in the Bible. I can pull those too, but you probably can remember some.

Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G
 

I find it amazing that, rather than dealing with what was presented, people will ignore what is said, restate their position, repeat their erroneous summary of the other side's position, and then declare victory for themselves and "an impasse" for the discussion.

It's really bizarre to be honest.

Well, not really, it makes perfect sense if a person simply has the whole thing sewn up and isn't really interested in DIALOGUE and DISCUSSION but is simply interested in pontificating.