Help With The Greek
 

We have discussed this before but how about one more round? Is what I'm seeing a major breakthrough for Oneness doctrine or nothing?

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

In the Greek Interlinears the last 4 words are Theos en ho logos.

One speaking Greek would pronounce what as the last word of this sentence?

Bible Hub Interlinear:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm

Re: Help With The Greek
 

It is spoken as it is written. The last spoken word in the sentence would be logos.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Thanks Scott. Are you the one who lived in Greece or did you study in school? I have been using this translation in discussions with Trinitarians and they always deny it and fall back on the mainstream translation.

I would like to see if others confirm this. It would embolden me to step up the fight for the glorious doctrine of Oneness!

Re: Help With The Greek
 

How would this change your understanding of the oneness doctrine.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Here is the Latin translation.

http://www.sacredbible.org/studybible/NT-04_John.htm

{1:1} In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum.
{1:1} In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

Here is the Aramaic.

https://www.studylight.org/bible/glt/john/1.html

1 THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.

I would like more input please. I have made this a point in several of my discussion/debates and the Greek reading Trins rip me for it. And yet if this is the more accurate translation I believe it can be a game changer.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Translating word order from one language to another has nothing to do with theology.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is your perfectly acceptable translation of Jn. 1:1. Word order does change when translating.

I took 2 years of Greek language at CLC. Our focus was on grammar and translantion.

I do not see anything special about the wording of the last phrase.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

In itself alone it does not change but rather CONFIRMS my understanding. I will bring it out here or on another thread once this one gets going. In this beginning stage I'm wanting to be assured that I can stand on this against the scholarly Trinitarian community.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Ok I am hit with "word order" by the Trins.

The key for me is how it is written and spoken IN THE GREEK.

Lets forget translating it into English for now. If indeed the Greek was the original thats whats more important.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Proving theological intent by word order does not seem plausible.

If one does try it, please provide examples of the same word order with the same theological intent from the same author.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Ok in post 2 you said:

In my video on "Modalism" I begin an explanation on why this is important. It would be good to start at the beginning but if one cant the heart of the matter begins at about 7 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeFL9l_p3pk&t=957s

Re: Help With The Greek
 

In John 1.1, a basic feature of Greek grammar shows exactly what the subject is and what the predicate nominative is. When two nouns in the nominative case (subjective case in English) appear in a sentence joined by a copulative verb, if only one of the nouns has the article "the" (ho), that is the subject. If both have an article, word order would reveal the subject. If neither have an article, context would have to be used to determine the subject. In John 1.1, logos has the article; theos does not. So, the subject is "the Word" (ho logos); the predicate nominative is "God" (theos). In English, this is translated as "The Word was God."

Why, though, would theos come before ho logos in the sentence? Since Greek, unlike English, is an inflected language (the endings of words change to indicate meaning), an author can vary the word order for emphasis or just variation in a way that languages like English cannot. English has lost most of its inflections and so depends on word order for meaning. We cannot, for example, write or say both "The man ate the bear " and "The bear ate the man" and basically mean the same thing. Word order shows what the subject is and what the object is, and so in my examples, the meaning is fundamentally different.

Greek word order is much more flexible, so if John wanted to emphasize something, say, that the Logos is God, he could, and did, put theos first. This doesn't make theos the subject. It's still the predicate nominative because it does not have the article, so in English we, again, translate it as the "Word was God," but to convey the emphasis, we might vary the intonation of the sentence and put the the emphasis on "God"--"And the Word was God."

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Thanks for your input. I have been out of school for 49 years and dont remember much about the rules of language so please bear with me.

All the Interlinears I have seen end the sentence with "God was the word". Is this leading the average guy astray?

Also if the Greek was the original and the Aramaic and the Latin were copies of it why do both of them end the sentence the same way as in the Interlinears?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

It all begins with learning the language. Until then, stick to the English text.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

The interlinear that you linked to is just putting the English words directly under the Greek words they correspond to. It is giving no guidance on how to understand the word order or to render it in English. See the attached image of John 1.1 in The NKJV Greek-English Interlinear New Testament. Note the superscript numbers in "4God 3was 1the 2Word." The 1, 2, 3, and 4 are showing the order to read the words in English, that is, "the Word was God."

I can't speak at all to the Aramaic. As far as the Latin goes, all that can be said is that Jerome, the translator, is just giving the most literal word for word rendering of the Greek into Latin. Unfortunately, Latin does not have an article at all, so there is no Latin equivalent for the Greek "ho." Context alone in Latin determines if something is definite or indefinite. Jerome obviously knew Greek and could see that logos alone had the article ho, but since Latin lacks an article, he could not include one before "Verbum." In short, what is ambiguous in Latin is unambiguous in Greek.

I've also attached an image of a section from an Intro to Greek book that explains the grammatical rule about the article I have mentioned in this post.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

I remember when I was studying Greek that I was so excited at first that I was going to be able to get back to the original text and be able to really see what it meant and thus be equipped to defeat my doctrinal opponents. Then one day it occurred to me that all the doctrinal controversies in the early church were carried out in Greek by Greeks. Greeks argued with Greeks over the meaning of the Greek. So I realized I probably wouldn't end up with some deep insight into the Greek, struggling to learn it as an adult, that Greeks hadn't already seen and argued over. As far as I know, in the debates over the nature of Christ, I don't think they were putting a lot of weight on the word order of John 1.1.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Learn Greek for a love of the language, not to win a debate.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

I understand what Trinitarians now say about the lack of the article before theos--that John was showing that the Word was God but not the Father and that only if there was an article before theos as well as logos would John be absolutely identifying the Word with the Father. My take on it would be that all that really can be said about the word order of John 1.1 is that John uses "ho logos" as the subject throughout the verse, and in order to emphasize the divinity of the Word while maintaining ho logos as the subject, he put theos without the article first. In my opinion, the identity of the Word cannot be simply established on John 1.1, but on the entirety of what John writes in his Gospel.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Yes indeed.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Hopefully I kept studying the language for the love of the Word. :-)

Re: Help With The Greek
 

What did you mean in post 2 when you said "the last spoken word of the sentence would be logos?"

Re: Help With The Greek
 

My next question is have somehow the Greek rules changed over the years?

Its my understanding that Tyndale first gave us a Bible from Greek into English.

This is supposed to be his translation.

https://www.faithofgod.net/WTNT/john_1.html

John 1:1

¶ In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word.

Also the first Bible in English was actually translated from Latin by Wycliffe. This was several hundred years I believe before Tyndale.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/fileadmin/impo...cliffe/Joh.txt

1 In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.

Both these translations were far earlier than the English of today.

So for hundreds of years English speaking people owned Bibles that gave us GOD WAS THE WORD

So how did that happen?

Online it is said Tyndale knew 7 languages and was counted as a genius in his time.

Did he in actuality NOT understand the Greek?

Could the rules whereby men translate have changed over the years?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

The language is spoken just like it is read.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

In all the periods of Greek that I ever studied (Homer through the NT) this basic grammatical rule applied.

Wycliffe translated from the Latin, and as it has been noted, the Latin reads Deus erat Verbum, so Wycliffe translated it word for word as "God was the Word."

Tyndale knew Greek, but that doesn't mean he was infallible and could never be inaccurate. However, please see the following link. It is to a site that says it's Tyndale's NT: https://www.biblestudytools.com/tyn/john/1.html. It is different from the version you linked to and agrees will all other English translations.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

But that's not how English speakers would say it

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Interlinears arent translations. An inter linear of the Greek NT is the actual Greek text with a corresponding value under each word

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Our understanding of Koine Greek language and literature has improved over the last 500 years. Translation theory and technique has also changed.

So has the English language.

Examining how Tyndale translates the same phrases or sentence constructions in John might answer why he translated Jn. 1:1 the way he did.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

So what I am seeking is to know what John actually wrote IN GREEK. I understand how it looks when translated into English. If the Interlinear is showing the words as written in the actual Greek text and Scott said:

Prax said:

So forgetting the idea of translating into English does the actual Greek text read God was the word?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

So is THIS the answer?

Scott said:

Prax said:
One reading or speaking the verse in Greek would see and speak the last 4 words as God was the word?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

The same way a "white house" in Spanish is a "house white".

The word order is different, but the meaning is the same.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

So the word order is God was the word in Greek, but the word was God in English?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

God bless you a thousand times.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Yes.

"God was the logos" in Greek but in English the "Logos was with God".

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Costeon said:

Yes I looked at it. Why conflicting versions of the same version?

I also found the Coverdale version which followed the Tyndale version at this site.

https://www.studylight.org/bible/mcb/john/1.html

John 1:1

1 In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde.

Costeon, please dont take my questioning as being combative. I'm just trying to understand. I have noticed the same thing with Martin Luthers Bible if I am reading this right.

Luthers Bible John 1:1

1 Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.

Of course this would be German but closer to the Greek than the English?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Costeon and Prax, do you agree with Scott?

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Tyndale produced several editions of his New Testament over a period of ten years, beginning in 1526 and ending in 1536 sometime before his execution. The answer to why there are conflicting versions seems to be that he changed his translation of John 1:1 during that period. It seems that the version that you had originally linked to was likely the earliest edition. Here is a link to Tyndale's 1526 edition: https://archive.org/details/1536Will...tament/page/n7. You'll see on the title page that it is the 1526 edition. If you scroll to where John 1:1 is you'll see it has "God was the Word."

Here is a link to the 1534 edition: http://textusreceptusbibles.com/Tyndale/43/1. It has "and the word was God."

This site is interesting because it includes all the early English Bibles based on Greek. You'll note that versions associated with Miles Coverdale (Coverdale and the Great Bible) are the ones with "God was the word."

I can't really speak to Luther's translation besides that all translations had a Greek text before them that read "theos en ho logos." He of course would have consulted the Latin version as well, which again reads Deus erat Verbum.

We have to be careful when saying "closer to the Greek" and what we mean by that. The German would be closer to the Greek word order but not the Greek meaning. English translations (besides those from Coverdale) don't woodenly follow the word order but translate as literally as possible while still conveying the meaning. Again, since English is a not an inflected language, word order establishes meaning. Since "ho logos" unquestionably is the subject, "the Word" comes before "God."

I searched online to see if there were any different readings (variants) in the earliest Greek New Testament texts that are now available for John 1:1 that clearly have God as the subject (ho theos), so "God was the Word." There are none. The Greek text is established.

Oh I don't take your questions as being combative. We're just trying to understand a difficult issue.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

Yes. As he has noted, the word order is "theos en ho logos," but it doesn't mean "God was the Word." It means "the Word was God." Word order in Greek does not function like it does in English. Word order can be changed up in a way that it can't in English. "theos en ho logos" and "ho logos en theos" would mean the same thing in Greek, with probably an emphasis on the divine nature of the Word since theos is put first--"fronted for emphasis."

Re: Help With The Greek
 

The subject of the clause is ho logos (the word) and theos (God) is what the logos was. Word order in Greek does not affect subject onbject relationships like it does in English. However word order in Greek DOES signify emphasis and importance.

Also, word order in older English did not have the same extent of control over subject object relationship that it does in current English. And even in modern English word order is not the final word on the subject. (Cool, a DOUBLE pun in one phrase! lol)

For example, consider the following statement: "The life of the party was Suzy." Which is the subject? The life of the party? It appears so, yet it is entirely possible that Suzy is actually the subject. As more clearly illustrated lin this other example: "A brave man was Hector." Which is saying Hector was a brave man, not that some random brave guy happened to be named Hector.

In such cases the object is seen to have a dual purpose. One is to specify what is being said of the subject (that Suzy is the life of the party, or that Hector is in fact a brave man). Two, and this is important to note, special attention is being drawn to the object as being descriptive or qualitative. Saying Hector was a brave man identifies him as a brave man, but saying "A brave man was Hector" draws special attention to Hector's qualities as a brave man. It's a case of emphasis or focus.

Regarding John 1:1, theos en ho logos is saying the word was God, but places special emphasis on the deific or divine quality of the logos. The word is still the subject but the EMPHASIS has shifted to God being that which the word was.

Older English translations kept the word order (And God was the Word) to keep that same emphasis, along the same lines as saying "A brave man was Hector". In fact, drop "brave" and say it like this: A MAN was Hector. In other words Hector was a "real man, a superlative man, a definitive man". The emphasis being man although the subject is Hector.

And GOD was the Word... This is not trying to say God existed as the Word as much as it is trying to empasize that the Word was nothing less than GOD.

Re: Help With The Greek
 

:thumbsup

Re: Help With The Greek
 

:highfive

Re: Help With The Greek
 

It might help to know what substantial difference or doctrinal upheaval would be generated--that benefitted the Oneness view over and against the Trinitarian view--if "God was the Word" in place of "the Word was God" is the better understanding and translation?

Does "God was the Word" make it seem more likely that the Logos is God the Father so that v. 14 means "God the Father was made flesh"?

What am I missing?