Be Perfect Be Pure
 

For TK Burk and (hopefully) all others.

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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Thanks!

I'll watch these and get back to you later...

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

I watched all three of your video teachings. Here's what I gathered:

1. a saint is to perfectly keep all that Jesus commanded
2. if a saint does not keep all Jesus commanded they are not perfect.
3. being perfect is more than what other preachers say it is
4. but you know what perfect actually means
5. perfect isn't just "complete" - it also means "obedience"
6. And unlike others, you keep all the commandments, thus, you are perfect.

Did I hear you correctly? If not, please explain.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

So in short, if you don’t believe everything Michael the Disabled believes, you are not perfect. Good grief.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Bro. Benincasa's link goes to a study he has on my Website. This is his study:

Among Them that are Perfect

The Apostle Paul spoke intelligently to those who were “mature” in the faith. This would be to those who were complete in Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that ARE PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

As a result, it is safe to say that Paul knew that there were others who were spiritually mature in Christ. Yet, the Apostle Peter praises Paul for his level of understanding, indicating that as far as the Apostle Peter was concerned, Paul had mature understanding of the scriptures. Also, that Paul’s writings were equal with the same authority as the scriptures of the Hebrew Bible.

2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

But, let us look at what Paul was saying to the Philippian church. Here the Apostle begins to give his qualifications, that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews, as concerning the Law blameless without fault, yet, he counted it all as nothing that he may obtain Christ. The Apostle Paul makes the statement that he didn’t count himself as having attained the level which he was looking for, which doesn’t mean, that he wasn’t spiritually mature, or at a higher level than others around him. Because the Apostle Paul then goes on to say….

Philippians 3:14-16
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have ALREADY ATTAINED, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Again, Paul points to those who he considered as spiritually mature in Christ, but then goes on to say (including himself) as to what they have attained they were to keep pressing on further towards that high calling in Christ. This they should do while always leaving behind carnal religious works and credentials, which amount to nothing. In Philippians 3:17, the Apostle Paul gives himself as an example to the Body of Christ. This example should be noted and followed.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Was the Apostle Paul mature, and spiritually complete? The scripture would indicate that he was, but he believed that he could go even farther. Therefore the Apostle encouraged all those in the Body of Christ to also go further, and reach towards a high level of spiritual maturity in Christ Jesus.

Did Jesus expect His followers to become complete and spiritually mature? Yes, because Jesus Himself told us to be perfect as the Father was perfect. If it couldn’t be attained, then why would He tell us to “be” something, which was impossible to reach?

The Apostle Paul tells us that when he was a child, he spake as a child, he understood as a child, he thought as a child: but when he became a man, he put away childish things. When he became a man, fully mature spiritually. There comes a time when we are no longer looking at a blurred self-image of ourselves in Christ, but we see as God sees us. Therefore, Paul taught that the duty of the ministry was to encourage those in the church to press on towards the high calling in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, WARNING every man, and TEACHING every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand PERFECT and COMPLETE in ALL the will of God.

Paul taught that we were to press on to be able to stand spiritually mature in all the will of God. Not our own human carnal will, but God’s will, His leading of His Spirit. Therefore, the Apostle goes on to say…..

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of JUST MEN MADE PERFECT,

We are told that the just will live by faith, and warned NOT to turn back.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

So, obeying God, and following God without drawing back, while pressing on to the high calling in Christ Jesus brings believers to maturity. So, is it possible to attain? It most certainly is.

Did Paul reach spiritual maturity? The scripture seems to indicate that he did. Just that the Apostle believed he could go even higher.

Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you PERFECT in EVERY good work to DO HIS WILL, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Copyright © 2012 DD Benincasa.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Amen. Note what Jesus said in Luke 17:7-10

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

When we do all that is commanded by Jesus we are just doing what we should be doing.

True. If they have sin in their life they are not perfect.

1 Cor. 15:34

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

If one is sinning they are not "awake" to righteousness. Paul is shaming them so they will cease from sin. If they are not in righteousness neither the knowledge of God they are certainly not perfect.

I have listened to and talked with Preachers for the last 45 years. A tiny fraction of them understand the teaching of perfection. Some teach an "imputed righteousness" much different than the way Paul taught it. They say God does not see their sins he only sees Jesus.

Well yes I do. But I never said anywhere NO ONE ELSE does. I said very few do.

True. Complete needs definition. Paul said this:

12Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

A Christian is to be perfect and complete as concerning what?

ALL THE WILL OF GOD!

So yes one could say "be complete as a Christian". But if their definition of complete does not include doing Gods will it would leave the Christian in confusion.

TK, would you tell me where I said this? Which video? The time on the video?

I dont believe I have ever made that statement so if its in my video please point it out.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

You do and you also said it here:

Many times you use wording making you 'more perfect' than them. In the above, you use: "A tiny fraction," "some teach," and "they say." You then differentiate that group from your more perfect understanding and your more perfect faith. Thus, "...unlike others, you keep all the commandments, thus, you are perfect."

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Better than most teaching I hear on perfection these days. I dont disagree with anything there really.

One can certainly be mature in Christ and still go deeper in him.

There are 2 levels of perfection. The one is "sinless" perfection. This is the one I probably point to the most. Why? Because I dont hear it taught. It needs to be heard. One wont enter Gods Kingdom with sin in their life.

The other perfection/maturity is going deeper in knowledge and experience in God. Thats what Paul meant here.

Phil. 3:7-11

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

You would think Paul HAD attained to all he needed.

Phil. 3:12-16

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Paul says he is not perfect in verse12. We know that does NOT mean he had sin in his life.

Why? He told the Thessalonians:

1 Thess 2:10

10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

So here Paul calls God for a witness that his life is blameless. We can be pretty sure he was not telling the Philippians he was not perfect as to having sin in his life.

What he means is he wants to KNOW CHRIST MORE FULLY. He has not experienced all the power of Christ he knows is available. He wants to be more conformed to his image. He had attained a lot but wanted more.

Even in this he does not feel he can slow down. He actually says he's doing all he is doing that he may ATTAIN TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD! Verse 11.

In verse 15 Paul says he and others ARE perfect. Tho its another Greek word they mean much the same. My view is he IS perfect in verse 15 means there is no sin in his life presently. Verse 12

He had attained to overcoming sin but theres more to the Christian life than JUST that. He had not yet attained to the resurrection because his race wasn't over. There were more experiences to be had. More of Gods power to walk in. More suffering to go through. More denying self.

His EXPERIENCE in Christ was not yet FULL.....in the sense of "complete" or "finished".

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

It is certainly true that a tiny fraction of Preachers preach Biblical perfection. Do you deny this? If you know ones who are preaching it thats great! Please put their name in the thread if you dont mind. All I can go by is those I have heard or read myself.

You seem to be making me say ALL others are not perfect EXCEPT me. Thats not my point. I have never said that.

Could my faith or any particular saints faith be more perfect than anothers? Obviously so. Paul says some are weak in the faith, some are as babes in Christ. Some have sin in their lives.

Paul used himself as an example to others.

1 Cor. 11:1

Be ye followers of me as I also am of Christ.

Neither my videos or my writings are done to make myself seem better than anyone else. Rather to point each disciple to the true standard Jesus gave his people.

Why is THIS one point out of your 5 questions the only one where you commented on my answers?

Are you just looking for a way to attack me? Is all this is to you? You dont see it as valid doctrine?

Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

I guess you missed where I asked:

I asked if I was right. Thus, I was making no attack...I was asking for clarity.

I believe someone in another thread suggested you have a reading disability. I don't think that's the case. I think you're one of those individuals that miss things that are said due to your brain being flooded with thoughts of how you'll reply.

That said, your responses now make me believe your stance is exactly what I had asked you. It's not so much what you say, but the way in which you say it that does this.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Carry on.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Mike, Brother Burk isn’t messing with you. He is honestly asking for clarity.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Please put their names in this thread?

Why?

Will you know them?

Do you want to do a background check?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

My point is very few teach it. If thats false you should be able to put some names in the text of those who do. Thats all.

And if you put in a bunch of names that actually do I will be glad:highfive

Thats my desire. Teachers teaching truth.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

I guess I hit a nerve.

Wow!

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

This is basic Michael Gibson behavior.

Isn’t religion exciting! :heeheehee

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

I don't know about exciting, but it sure is easy to recognize.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

He wants a list.

Mike, Yanni Takas?

Do you know him?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Ok, I guess he doesn’t know him or of him.

Yet, this is the tedious behavior one must deal with when conversing with Mike.

Perfect and pure.

Has anyone else watched Micheal Gibson’s video concerning his purity?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Started it... Didn't finish

I did notice that his beard looks much shorter in the video than in his profile picture. Progress!

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Come on, please. It is only three videos. For discussion sake?

I think I said this before it must be a testosterone deficiency. Beard falling out. It is one thing to go bald it is another thing to have your facial hair disappear without the aid of a razor, or some other barber shop means.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Mike, why didn't you answer this post?

You are pure, please answer this post with some of your purity.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Mike, after me watching all three of your videos I came away with the same thoughts. Especially your last video. You make it out that if someone doesn't believe everything that you believe we are not perfect. Unless you keep all the commandments then we are not perfect, therefore it then flows right into you being perfect in all your beliefs.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Therefore he wasn't yet perfected?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Since I first got on this forum a couple of years ago, I have been surprised a few times at some posts in which someone had apparently claimed to be perfect without any sin. If our salvation is dependent on my moment by moment obedience--my perfection--then I am in effect saving myself. If I lose my justified status the instant I have failed in any way, then my justification is based on me not on Christ.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

So you think Spirit filled Christians can't be sin free? Did you watch my videos?

Can you show anywhere that I said or wrote that the instant someone sins they lose their justified status?

If Jesus Christ is in someone every moment HE IS SAVING THEM minute by minute by his Spirit.

Romans 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Our salvation is not BASED on our obedience. But our obedience IS an essential part of its finality.

1 John 2:17

17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

You have an excellent point.

But to really appreciate what we are actually talking about. You would need to at least watch the last video. I know I’m handing out homework with everyones already busy schedule. But one needs to watch the video or videos to understand what is really being commented on.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Just to be clear, are you referring to the thread "Perfect In God's Will Part 2 Video?"

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

How would one know they had truly attained perfection?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

I have not watched the video yet -- I began it, but was interrupted by multiple phone calls -- but let me ask this in advance: as I watch this, should I do so with an understanding that perfection is the 'goal' or that perfection is the 'requirement'?

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Chris, watch the videos

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Yes, if you don’t want to watch all three, then the 20 minute one should do it.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Thank you, sir! :thumbsup

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Antipas.

I'll see if I can set some time aside to watch the 20 minute one. I was hoping to get a simple answer from Michael on how one can know they have attained perfection. Hopefully I'll get to it tonight.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

There are 2 kinds of perfection. Sinless perfection and then growth to the full stature of Christ.

Sinless perfection is more about "maintaining" than "attaining".

When one is born again they are perfect. Not one sin is held against them. As long as they don't commit a sin they will continue to be perfect. IF they would sin they are no longer perfect.

If they truly repent they are perfect again. They have no sin in their life.

If there is no sin in ones life they are are perfect in context of "sinless perfection".

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Perfection is both the goal and a requirement. Jesus never says "dont be perfect" or "you cant be perfect".

Instead he says "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Okay, I think I understand you.

In the context of "sinless perfection", how does one know they aren't sinning? For example... I had a ham and swiss sandwich last night. Have I sinned? Occasionally I wear poly-knit clothing, am I in sin? I don't really keep any "holy days", I might give a nod to their cultural significance, but that's it. I believe that everyday is holy unto the Lord. So, I don't keep the OT sabbaths, feast days, or festivals. I've entertained sabbath keeping, but the Holy Spirit kept pushing me into deeper waters and convicting me that the rest of the sabbath was symbolic type and shadow of our rest in Christ. So, I look at keeping any day as a "holiday" of sorts as merely a cultural thing wherein I can take it or leave it. Would this be "sin"? If I had a brother, and he died without having a child to continue his name, must I marry his wife and raise children up in his name? Because in the OT, it was a rather serious sin not to. God struck Onan dead for refusing to sire a child in his brother's name. If one wishes to really "think" about this... there could be dozens, if not hundreds, of questions like these.

I'm thinking that with a doctrine as exacting as sinless perfection, we need what is and what is not "sin" firmly established. Can you list exactly what is sin for a NT believer?

I ask this because it is one thing to say "one must be perfect" and have a bunch of people grunting along in agreement with you while sitting aside a campfire. It's entirely another to define it for practical application that can be readily understood and lived out. This is because everyone grunting in agreement might have different views on what is meant when you say "sinless perfection". And without it specified clearly, I imagine your view would see many souls lost due to people simply not knowing what is and is not sin under the New Covenant.

Re: Be Perfect Be Pure
 

Chris, I am assuming people reading this are New Covenant believers. Most of your large paragraph deals with the law of Moses. You can eliminate some things such as those with the simple revelation that we are not under Moses law.

As to what is sin in the New Covenant, a disciple of Jesus with a Bible can find out when he gets serious with Gods word. There are various lists of sins given by the Apostles. We can be sure if we are violating them our walk is not perfect.

Here is one list you can start with.

1 Cor. 6:9-10

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

When I as a new convert saw verses like this I realized these were considered sin by God and he would not be pleased if I continued in them. So yes Jesus does teach us what is sin.

It does behoove us if indeed we be his disciples to spend time in his word and soon we will be hiding it in our heart so we wont sin against him.