What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

This topic deserves its own thread.

Esaias wrote:

That is actually what I believe. The body is the only thing that dies when that which is known as death occurs. I will consider your thoughts as I read through them, as aI am writing as I read each part you have presented..

Well, the soul, not the body, was indeed in a state of death called trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1.. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

That verse follows Paul's example of Christ's experience in which he both was raised from the dead and then seated in heavenly places. Jesus experienced two things noted in chapter 1.

Ephesians 1:20.. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Paul said that the power that God used to do this with Christ is toward us. In other words, we experience the same things.

Ephesians 1:19.. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

The power God used to raise and enthrone Christ is toward us. That means, as 2:1 said, we are quickened together with Him -- raised from the dead.

And, secondly, we are seated with Him as well.

Ephesians 2:6.. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is considered by God to be a raising and seating with Christ as much as Christ was raised and seated.

For that reason, Paul said that we need to come before God with the understanding that we are alive from the dead. Union to Christ's death and resurrection is very real, and we must consider it so.

Romans 6:9-11.. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. ..(10).. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. ..(11).. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And that is what this next verse says as well:

Romans 6:6.. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

But what do we mean LIKE a resurrection? Perhaps we are so used to thinking of the body resurrecting that we think the soul and spirit is not resurrected because we can only imagine a physical thing.

I believe our spirits were actually dead in sin. Dormant spirits. And they were made alive at new birth.

I think the spirit is dead. And the only part born again is the spirit.

Now that I think of it, your understanding of spirit is different than mine, so my explanation of the spirit being dead and made alive may mean something to you that I never heard of.

Jude spoke of people being TWICE DEAD. I think that refers to dead spirits made alive at new birth only to become dead again.

Paul was speaking focusing about bodies in 1 Cor 15, though.

Right. And that is not victory over death.

If I am right and the soul and spirit do not die upon death of the body, but leave the body to be with the Lord, it would only be for the sake of resurrection of the body. If there is no point to resurrect our bodies, then there is no point of continuing on in heaven. We were not created to live and die to go to heaven. Adam was created to rule this world immortally. That purpose has never changed. God restores us to the PLAN A of what we read in Genesis 1 for man. Rule the world immortally. And this makes the picture of the resurrection make perfectly good sense. If there is no resurrection, then Plan A will never come to pass, so let man perish. But because Plan A is not abandoned, then resurrection is necessary because we only leave bodies in spirit and soul to go to heaven in order to await the resurrection and recommence with Plan A. There would be no purpose to die and go to heaven apart from bodies if we were never going to get those bodes again later.

The aspect of ruling this world forever is therefore not considered by those who feel there is no physical resurrection and those like yourselves who feel spirit and soul dies at death along with the body.

Hmmm.... Something to consider!

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I rephrased it in such a way as to be more clear.

Those who believe both the spirit and soul die along with the body at physical death propose that resurrection is not only victory over death in reference to the body but also the soul and spirit.

Both of the views that propose there is no physical resurrection and this other that teaches spirit, soul and body die at death (to see all three are resurrected) lack one common denominator. They do not consider that God planned for Adam to immortally live and rule this world before he sinned. Death only came to mankind after Adam’s sin. In order to restore mankind to what God originally planned for us, this physical immortality in which
we were meant to live and rule this world must be reinstated.

Those who propose that the spirit and soul die with the body, necessitating all three components of our beings to resurrect, also claim that Jesus died in spirit, soul and body as well.

They claim Paul had no argument in 1 Corinthians 15 if only the body resurrects. They come to this conclusion by reasoning that lack of a bodily resurrection would allow for the spirit and soul to continue in heaven. This would see people still existing without a resurrection of the body. However, Paul said lack of a resurrection means people perish!
Therefore, the resurrection must include dead, spirits, souls and bodies being given life again, or his argument in verse 18 is moot.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Falling asleep in their view means spirit, soul and body are dead.

But the truth is that God would not care to see the soul and body continue in heaven forever if the resurrection of the body alone would not occur. Why keep man in existence forever in soul and spirit if God’s purpose for man was to physically live in immortal bodies and rule the earth? In that sense, God would simply let man perish if there was not resurrection, if indeed the resurrection is of body only. And this makes perfect sense.
However, because God did not abandon Plan A with the creation of man for the purpose of having him rule the world forever in an immortal body, then God does indeed plan to resurrect our bodies. If we should die before the resurrection, and our spirit and souls depart from our bodies due to the death of those bodies, our spirits and souls remain in Heaven waiting. God’s purpose will recommence once the resurrection occurs and we reunite with our bodies. We will then rule the world in physical immortal bodies as Adam was created to do.

This makes the sense of the picture of perishing due to no resurrection of the body to be understood as saying that God would have no purpose for man to remain in Heaven in spirit and soul forever. The entire creation of man was to see an image of God in this world ruling the earth as God is in Heaven ruling over everything. We would rule with God indwelling us and together united to see His Spirit work through our physical bodies to influence this physical universe that He created.


-- Am I right in how I represented your view?

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Man is a "living soul". So when death occurs he is a dead soul. The soul is not an immortal component of man. Scripture does say the spirit returns to God. Whatever that is. Is it just the breath or life giving force or is there more to it than that? I don't know.

The thing that has always perplexed me is the physical attributes that people mention the dead as having when their disembodied soul or spirit departs. For example. "So and so is dancing around the throne or looking down on us or is walking on streets of gold". Or when people go to gravesites and talk to departed loved ones.

Bro Blume, I like your explanation of man living and ruling on earth as he was always intended to do. It sounds much more plausible than floating around on a cloud forever or a mansion made of jewels. I would much prefer to live with grass, trees, flowers, rivers etc....

But I don't think there is an intermediate existence because.... the soul is not a separate immortal entity.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Your explanations with Esaias are very interesting and thoughtful.

However, I still see the soul as inside the body as the body is a house, and we depart from it, according to Paul at death. Esaias once said that it was Paul's desire to do so, not necessarily what does happen. I disagree. And like you, I agree the Bible says nothing about walking or doing anything in heaven. I still see an interim time, though.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I think that the word "soul" that we assign the meaning of spirit is an example of the meaning of a word morphing over time. In the OT the word appears to mean person. Often you can substitute person for soul in the Bible and you will find that the context does not change.

Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you substitute person for soul, the word and the context hardly change.

Genesis 46:18

These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

I believe soul in the Bible means life. Maybe not exclusively, but generally.

Joshua 11:11

And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

Breath of life, there was not any left to breathe . . .

Keeping body and soul together, seems to mean that you are still alive and breathing, at least scripturally. What do you think?

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I don't recall ever in my entire life saying that. I have never heard anyone say the spirit dies at death. Here is what I have always believed and taught: at death the flesh goes back to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7).

Now this is weird. I honestly have no idea why you say that. I have always understood the original intent for Man was to live and rule the earth as the sons of God. It is one of the reasons I never bought into 'Fly Awayism' or the immortal soul theory. I can only say I have no idea where you got such an idea, honestly. Every person I've ever known who believes the truth of the resurrection understands this most basic fundamental point.



You do realise my point was that IF 1 Cor 15 was ONLY about the body coming back to life (albeit immortal) THEN those who have died have PERISHED IF the dead are not raised. This means that IF what Paul wrote was true (it is) THEN the immortal soul theory is at once proven utterly false and impossible. Why? Because those who "live on after death" ARE STILL ALIVE whether the bodies come out of the grave or not, they have not and indeed CANNOT "perish".

BUT, since if the dead do not rise then all departed are perished, it follows that 1 Cor 15 IS NOT about a bodily resurrection for living disembodied dead-but-still-alive people. Rather, it is about the resurrection of the PERSON. The PERSON has forever perished if there is no resurrection. Why? Because a living person is a uniting of flesh and spirit (making a living soul, a living creature, a living PERSON). As long as spirit and flesh are separated, the person is DEAD. The Bible calls it "sleep" because it is a temporary condition until resurrection. Just as a man goes to sleep, and wakes up in the morning, humans die, but will rise up on That Morning.


Paul said "comfort one another with these words", words that say NOTHING about the joys of the after death fiesta in heaven. But words about RESURRECTION. Immortal soulists however routinely comfort one another with tales of how sweet it is for the dead to be in heaven, what they are doing, etc. This tells me clearly the immortal soul theory is NOT what Jesus, His apostles, and the prophets believed.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Will get back with responses and some thoughts I have on soul and spirit.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

That's why I asked for your clarification. So, you believe the spirit leaves the body and goes to God.

I've just never heard anyone say anything about why we see our bodies restored to immortal physical life, and have never heard you address this. You said the PERSON died and is resurrected, not the body That made me think you meant spirit soul and body dies and is resurrected, because a person is a spirit, soul and body.

So, are you saying that after the resurrection, we do not stay in heaven but come to earth and continue as Ada was meant to continue on the earth, as I do? You said something about the PERSON dies, not just the body. So, do you mean the SOUL dies at death to not exist, let alone depart the body and go to heaven?

you said...

And I consider a person to be spirit, soul and body.

When you said this...

...it made me think you meant the separation is some form of dying and you did not say the spirit goes back to God when you wrote that. I did not know what you thought happened to the spirit, so it seemed you meant the person, spirit, soul and body died. requiring spirit, soul and body to rise again. You just did not say enough. Now that you have said the spirit leaves and goes to God, I understand that you did not mean the spirit dies and needs resurrection. That was a missing factor in your explanation.


It's not easy to follow your thought here.

That clarifies your thought better than what I read before.

I agree that is why it is called sleep. But I restrict that to the body.

So, I am trying to work through what you are saying.

You are saying that there is no person if the spirit separates from the body. So, the soul does not die, but just ceases to exist? Please elaborate on what happens to the soul when the spirit leaves the body, because I am not clear about your view on that.

This leads us to ask that if the soul ceases to exist, that is, the experience of dying is the soul ceasing to exist, then how are the personality and individual traits maintained when the resurrection occurs and the spirit reunites to flesh to make soul all over again, if that is what happens with soul in your view?

I still see the soul in heaven, again because of what Paul said about departing from the body and being present with the Lord. But please elaborate more on your thoughts of the soul at death.

How can the soul SLEEP, if the spirit leaves the body to see the soul non-existent, if you are saying it is non-existent? I need more clarity from you on that.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

In the meantime, here s=is what I see about spirit and soul.

Soul and spirit are certainly not the same thing. Spirit and soul can be divided according to 1 Thess 5:23. God’s breath became man’s spirit and contacted the body to have a soul created.

Romans 8:16 sees God’s Spirit bear witness with our spirits. Spirits of men are not just breath or life. We actually sense things in our human spirits. That does not mean each person has part of God’s Spirit in them, as though they naturally house his Spirit.

Spirit, soul and body are seen in man’s creation, where the breath of God became man’s spirit, the dust of ground became body and the breath from God touching the body caused a soul to come into existence. It’s as though the body without the spirit is dead. So, the spirit from God’s breath made the body alive to make the real us, souls.

Spirit and body caused an individual soul with self awareness to come into being. And spirit and body are made one with the soul the part that unified them together. Angels were made spirits, but men were made souls.

Our bodies allow us, as souls, to relate to the physical universe. Our spirits allow our souls to relate the spiritual realm. The Bible definitely shows a function to the spirit that allows us as souls to be involved in spiritual things. The soul is able to choose whether to focus on the material realm by the body or the spiritual by the spirit. And the spirit , above all, get us in touch with God.

This makes man like a temple. Holiest of holies corresponds to the spirit, soul is the active centre and is the holy place. And the body is like the outer court. Even flesh was on the altar and washed in the actual temple outer court. The priests spent much active ministry in the holy place corresponding to the soul. But the holiest of holies is where the high priest went and God’s Spirit manifested. Only the high priest went into the holiest as Jesus entered our spirits. When we were born again, it was the human spirit that was born of God’s Spirit, not soul nor body.

In our spirits, there is no natural light, but the light of Go, showing us that our flesh is useless in things of faith that our spirits engage in.

The bible often speaks of our spirits, and the spirits of prophets.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Our spirits can be hardened, be contrite, be right.

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


We can be troubled in our spirits.

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Paul had his spirit stirred.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

Paul spoke of being with people in his spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,


Restless spirit.

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.


Our spirits are here shown to sense things as being right or wrong. Conscience.


The spirit can be willing.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


Jesus perceived things in his spirit.

Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?


These are spiritual functions that fleshly people do not experience.


Sighing in spirit.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.


You can groan in spirit.

John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,



Pressed in spirit, or nudged.

Acts 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.


The spirit is actually functioning in these sorts of capacities which makes it far more than breath.

Bound in spirit.

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


Our spirits can know certain things.

We really see how the spirit interacts with God in ways the soul is not said to do so.

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Worship in spirit is true worship.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


We serve in spirit.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;


We become one spirit with God as man and woman become one flesh.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


Spirit is contrasted from natural awareness and knowing.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


This shows things of God in the spiritual realm are not know by the soul, but the spirit allows the soul to understand them making the spirit the avenue for the soul to involve itself in spiritual things, just as the body allows the soul to interact with the physical realm.

The soul is described as being involved in other things altogether.

Will in these verses is Hebrew SOUL.

Psalms 27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.


Psalms 41:2 The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.


Emotions:

1 Samuel 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.


Psalms 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

Soul being vexed.

2 Kings 4:27 And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.

Knows emotional sweetness.


Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Esaias, I'll let your thoughts on death and the spirit and body sink in to respond to you later.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

My understanding is the Lord returns to earth and church is resurrected. I never read where we then go to heaven. :) Although I assume it's possible for folks to go visit there, heaven isn't our predestined home, earth is, and always was.

I mean "the soul" is the person, a uniting a flesh and spirit. At death the person is dead. Or, you could say the soul has died. Dead people in scripture are sometimes called dead souls. I would hesitate to say "not exist", because to me that implies annihilation which occurs at the judgment of the wicked. The dead do not exist as conscious living persons, but they do exist to God. For "all live unto Him, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" - which was said by Christ in reference to the resurrection, not an intermediate state.

You ask about how the personality continues. Technically, it doesn't continue as a self existing thing in the intermediate state, because the individual person is dead. In the resurrection, you will be the same person, albeit resurrected. There may be some changes to your personality (mportant experiences usually produce changes to personality) but not to the extent you won't be the same person.

I used to say "God keeps you in His memory banks so when you resurrect it's really you and not another" (using a weak Star Trek transporter analogy). But I am tending nowadays to ask "what determines the individual person-ness of a person? Why are we not all clones of each other?"

We all have our own unique genetic database or DNA ingredients. We can clearly see numerous mental traits are inherited (as studies of twins separated at birth have shown), yet even identical twins are still different from one another in some (or many ways). Our experiences shape who we are as well. God's interventions do so as well (eg. Bezaleel Ex 36:2). It may also be that each person's spirit is not just a generic "human spirit", but an individualised spirit "custom made by God" for each person. But observation proves that personality operates within the brain (a physical organ of the body) so is clearly connected to the flesh.

So when the body is raised miraculously by the power of God, as the spirit and flesh reunite, it seems obvious to me the personhood will return to life as a matter of course. Ordinary death does not obliterate the person into nonexistence. That is the role and purpose of the SECOND death.



Sleep is a metaphor. The PERSON is said to be asleep, because physical death is only a temporary cessation of life, like sleep is a temporary cessation of wakefulness. "Soul sleep" isn't a Bible term, although it expresses a Bible concept (like Oneness, baptismal regeneration (rightly explained), soteriology, theology, church service, debt-free, etc etc). The Bible does say the dead are "asleep" or that they "sleep", and identifies the soul not simply as a mere component of a person, but as the person themself. Phrases like "your soul" are equivalent to "your life, your self" etc.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

That really clarifies your thoughts for me. Thanks.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

:thumbsup

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Try this again with rebuttal:

When Jesus Christ has the last enemy death beneath His feet, by the power of God the Father, an actual conquest of death will have taken place. Those who insist the physical body will never resurrect actually deny the fact that death will be defeated.

If death causes something to become dead, the only way to defeat death is to take that which died and give it life a second time. This is the criterion for experiencing resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

And we can readily understand this when we stop and consider that defeat of death is undoing what death has accomplished. If a spiritual body is an invisible body that rises up out of the dead physical body, we must ask ourselves when the spiritual body died before God resurrected it. If it had not experienced a previous death, then the rising up of a spiritual body out of the physical body is not a resurrection at all. Death was not defeated in having such an event take place.

Death must have taken the life of something for God to conquer death by making that something come to life a second time. Death is not defeated if that which it killed remains dead, and something else rises in its place. Death would have then accomplished what it could and nothing undid its work. Where is the victory there?

When a person dies, the spirit and soul do not die. The spirit was made alive and born again when new birth occurred. Jesus said we are not born of the flesh a second time when we are born again. We are born of the Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is the human spirit.

Nothing in the Bible speaks of the soul of a believer dying or ceasing a conscious existence when death sees the body expire. In fact, Paul stated that our bodies are tabernacles, or tents, made from the earth, indicating that the soul normally resides within the body, but can leave and continue to exist. We shall get a house made from heaven rather than this temporary tent. That means that our souls and spirits occupy our “tents”, for the time being.

Paul, then stated that he desired to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, rather than remain in the mortal body in which we groan, if he was left with one of those two choices. His greater desire was to see his spirit and soul clothed upon with a house from Heaven.

This, then, informs us that the soul and spirit of a person does not die, but the physical bodies dies. And, therefore, the physical body alone requires resurrection in order for death to be conquered, or else there is no victory over death.

There are also those who believe the spirit leaves the body and returns to God at death, leaving the body dead and the soul in almost a non-existent state. To these people, there is no experience of a departure of the soul from the body to go to Heaven. The person is simply dead and not conscious in any sense of the word.

They do not propose that the soul does not exist in this intermediate state, as such, seeing as that would imply annihilation. And they do not want to consider annihilation. The idea is that they exist as far as God is concerned, but not as conscious living persons.

Luke 20:37-38 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

The statement by Jesus, “For all live unto Him,” is thought by these people to mean that, although these souls are not conscious and dead, they are alive in God’s mind.

They acknowledge that personality does not continue, but the resurrection will cause everyone to be the same people once again, though somewhat changed due to the experience of resurrection. Ideas about all of this are involved, such as the brain containing personality. Resurrection of the body, therefore, somehow brings back the person. Also, perhaps the spirit of man contains individuality to lend the original personality to the individual.

To make the statement that Christ’s words, “for all live unto Him,” does not necessarily mean that the soul continues in a conscious or living state, is to claim that God somewhat “pretends” that they exist. This lessens what Jesus actually meant.

Jesus explained that Moses referred to God as the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He said that the reason for this statement was to indicate that God is a God of the living, not of the dead. It is then that Jesus said, “For all live unto Him.”
The natural reading of that passage would lead one to think that Jesus meant that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all still alive. This tells us that they are dead to mankind, but not God.

For this reason, Paul made the statement that, upon death, he would depart from the body to be present with the Lord. The body remains among men, and is dead. However, the soul departs from the body in order to be with God so that it is alive to God, for it is then in His presence. The soul and body are not together to be with men in this world. In order to deny that this is a reality, the best that these people can do is to propose that Paul’s statement only expressed wishful thinking. They do not take that statement from Paul as if he proposed an actuality.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

There is no wishful thinking, as though Paul desired that a mythical experience of the soul being able to leave the body to be with Jesus was real, though in reality it was not. After having read of Paul’s desire to be absent from his body, why would we think that he meant it was not possible, unless we looked for that meaning? Clearly, Paul meant that he knew that he would be made absent from his body and present with Jesus one day, while he chose not to experience that for the moment. He felt that it was more profitable for others that he remained in his body and existing in this life. If there was any wishful thinking, it was not to experience a mythical opportunity to depart from his body to be with Jesus, but to be able to die at that moment, rather than at a future time.

Paul said that he was always confident. He said that the reason for this was his knowledge that his state of being home in the body meant that he was absent from the Lord. He fully believed in immortality and a continuation of his existence with the Lord in the future. He said that he held this confidence because he walked by faith and not by sight. Although he noted that he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord, he remained confident and able to bear whatever he might face in this life, and not be shaken by it.

was confident of a certain fact. He was also willing to be absent from his body and be present with the Lord , we are meant to understand that the possibility of the soul leaving the body to be with the Lord is not a mythical experience. He did not mean that he was confident that this was a true experience. He simply referred to something that he knew was true, and indicated that he maintained his confidence in his faith toward God despite all the pressures that he faced. Because he knew immortality was his in the future, he remained strong in his faith. This is the reason that the next verse stated that he was confident because he walked by faith and not by sight.

2 Corinthians 5:6-7 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Paul simply knew that absence from the body was an experience he would one day know.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I was listening to this podcast before work this morning. Didn't have time to finish it.
https://reknew.org/2019/12/what-is-the-soul-podcast/

My personal view is that the "inner man" lives on after death departing from this physical house of clay and goes on to be with the Lord. The "inner man" is the soul/spirit.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

:thumbsup

What are your thoughts about the resurrection?

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

The just and the unjust are resurrected and judged. At this current time I believe both with be given eternal bodies like Jesus has had since his resurrection in which our soul/spirits will be housed forever.

So I guess resurrection will be the start of our eternal life in New Jerusalem. We will no longer be in that intermediate state which comes after death in which our souls/spirits exist "unhoused".

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

there is no point in having a disembodied spirit roaming around waiting to be reunited with a resurrected body. That makes the person immortal, the bible says God only is immortal at this point.

when saints are resurrected to life, they will put on immortality

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

:yourock

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

So you believe both the just and the unjust will have eternal life, immortality, etc?

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

From the link in my signature

(1). “Let us not kill him” (soul–nehphesh). “Let us not take his life” (soul–nehphesh) New American Standard, Genesis 37:21.

(2). "Life (soul–nehphesh) for life (soul–nehphesh).” “Immortal soul for immortal soul?" Exodus 21:23.

(3). "Any dead body (soul–nehphesh)" Leviticus 21:11. Any dead soul? Nehphesh is translated “dead body” thirteen times in the King James Version.

(4). And he that killeth a beast shall make it good beast (soul-nephesh) for beast (soul–nehphesh)” Leviticus 24:17 King James Version, “Life (soul–nehphesh) for life (soul–nehphesh) (soul for soul?)"

(5). “Whosoever is defiled by the dead (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 5:2. Defiled by a dead soul?

(6). “He shall come at no dead body (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 6:6 King James Version. "He shall not go near to a dead person (soul-nehphesh).”

(7). “And he that killeth any man (soul–nehphesh) shall surely be put to death. And he that killeth a beast shall make it good beast (soul–nehphesh) for beast (soul–nehphesh)” (soul for soul?) Leviticus 24:17-18 King James Version. "And if a man takes the life (soul–nehphesh) of any human being." Does anyone believe a person can take the life of an immortal, immaterial, deathless soul?

(8). "Because of a dead person (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 6:11.

(9). "Defiled by the dead body of a man (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 9:6- 7.

(10). "Unclean by reason of a dead body (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 9:10.

(11). "He that toucheth the dead body of any man (soul–nehphesh)” Numbers 19:11. “Whoever touches a human corpse (soul–nehphesh)" (New International Version).

(12). “Whosoever toucheth the dead body (soul–nehphesh) of any man that is dead” Numbers 19:13 King James Version. "Anyone who touches a corpse, the body (soul–nehphesh) of a man who has died.” How could anyone touch the corpse of something that has no substance and cannot die? By today’s definition of soul this says an immaterial deathless something is dead, and this immaterial something is touched by a living mortal man. Why did they not translate this “soul”? If they had it would have destroyed their pagan belief.

(13). "Whosoever has killed any person (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 31:19.

(14). “Which killeth any person (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 35:11.

(15). "Everyone that kills any person (soul–nehphesh) " Numbers 35:15.

(16). "Whoso kills any person (soul–nehphesh)" Numbers 35:30.

(17). “And slay him (soul–nehphesh)” Deuteronomy 19:6 KJV. “And take his life (soul–nehphesh)."

(18). "And strikes him so that he (soul–nehphesh) dies" Deuteronomy 19:11.

(19). "Life (soul–nehphesh) for life (soul–nehphesh), eye for eye, tooth for tooth” Deuteronomy 19:21.

(20). "A man rises against his neighbor and murders him (soul–nehphesh)" Deuteronomy 22:26.

(21). "Cursed be he who takes a bride to slay an innocent person (soul–nehphesh)" Deuteronomy 27:25.

(22). "And deliver our lives (souls–nehpheshs) from death" Joshua 2:13. Not, “Save our immortal, deathless souls from death.”

(23). "Who kills any person (soul–nehphesh)" Joshua 20:9. Not, “Who kills any immortal soul that cannot be killed.”

(24). "That kills any person (soul–nehphesh)" Joshua 20:3.

(25). "Let me (soul–nehphesh) die" Judges 16:30. Not "Let my soul that cannot die, die anyway?"

(26). "And you lose your life (soul–nehphesh), with the lives (souls–nehpheshs) of your household" Judges 18:25.

(27). "If you do not save your life (soul–nehphesh) tonight" 1 Samuel 19:11.

(28). "The death of all the persons (souls–nehpheshs) of your father's house" 1 Samuel 22:22.

(29). "He that seeks my life (soul–nehphesh) seeks your life (soul–nehphesh)" 1 Samuel 22:23.

(30). "He is seeking my life (soul–nehphesh)" 1 Samuel 20:1.

(31). "David saw that Saul was come out to seek his life (soul–nehphesh)" 1 Samuel 23:15.

(32). "Deliver him that smote his brother, that we may kill him for the life (soul–nehphesh) of his brother whom he slew" 2 Samuel 14:7.

(33). "Who today have saved your life (soul–nehphesh) and the lives (souls–nehpheshs of your sons and daughter, the lives (souls–nehpheshs) of your wives, and the lives (souls–nehpheshs) of your concubines" 2 Samuel 19:5.

(34). "Have you asked for the life (soul–nehphesh) of your enemies" 1 Kings 3:11.

(35). "Prolong my life (soul–nehphesh)" Job 6:11. Not “Prolong the life of an immortal, deathless soul?”

(36). "For himself that he might die, and said, It is enough; now, O Lord, take my life (soul–nehphesh)" 1 Kings 19:4.

(37). "A man that dose violence to the blood of any person (soul–nehphesh) shall flee unto the pit; let no man stay him" Proverbs 28:17. A person has blood; if there were an immaterial soul it would have no blood.

(38). "Ammon has sent Ishmael the son of Nethaniah to take your life (soul–nehphesh)...wherefore should he take your life (soul–nehphesh)" Jeremiah 40:14-15.

(39). "By shedding blood and destroying lives (nehpheshs–living beings)" Ezekiel 22:27.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Also from the link:

PASSAGES IN THE KING JAMES VERSION THAT CLEARLY

SAYS A SOUL CAN DIE, OR THAT A SOUL ALREADY DEAD

The same word (nehphesh) that many times was translated life or person that will die, or is already dead is also translated into an immortal, deathless soul (nehphesh) that many believe is in a person (nehphesh) unto the person’s (nehphesh) death and they say “it” (nehphesh) is not the person (nehphesh); nevertheless, according to the King James Version, that deathless, immortal soul (nehphesh) will die just as the mortal person (nehphesh) that it (nehphesh) is in will die, or that it (nehphesh) is already dead.

(1). “Whatsoever soul (life–nehphesh) it be that doest any work in the same day, the same soul (life–nehphesh) will I destroy" Leviticus 23:30 King James Version. “That person (nehphesh) will I destroy."

(2). "And they smote all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them; there were none left that breathed" Joshua 11:11.

(3). "He utterly destroyed them and all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein; he left none remaining" Joshua 10:28.

(4). "And he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein; he left none remaining in it" Joshua 10:30.

(5). " And smote it with he edge of the sword, and all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein" Joshua 10:32.

(6). "And all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein he utterly destroyed that day" Joshua 10:35.

(7). "But he utterly destroyed it, and all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein” Joshua 10:37.

(8). "And he captured it and its king and all its cities, and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that were therein” Joshua 10:39. Can immortal souls be utterly destroyed with the sword?

(9). "That his soul (person–nehphesh) was vexed to death" Judges 16:16. "Annoyed to death" New American Standard Version. We say, "He worried me to dead."

(10). “Yet thou huntest my soul” (life–nehphesh) 1 Samuel 24:11 KJV. "You are lying in wait for my soul (life–nehphesh) to take it" New KJV, American Standard Version.

(11). "To pursue you and to seek your soul (life–nehphesh) 1 Samuel 25:29. Sometimes nehphesh was translated “seek your soul,” and sometimes the same word was translated “seek your life.” See 12-21 below. Did they think the Hebrew word nehphesh (1) is a mortal person that both can and will die, (2) or an immortal soul that cannot die?

1. “Which sought your life” (nehphesh) 2 Samuel 4:8.

2. “Seeking my life” (nehphesh) 2 Samuel 16:11.

3. “Take away my life” (nehphesh) 1. Kings 19:10.

4. “They seek my life, (nehphesh) to take it away” 1 Kings19:14.

5. “Seek after my soul” (nehphesh) Psalm 35:4.

6. “Seek after my life” (nehphesh) Psalm 38:12.

7. “Seek after my soul” (nehphesh) Psalm 40:14.

8. “Let all those that seek thee” (nehphesh) Psalm 40:16.

9. “To slay thee” (nehphesh) Jeremiah 40:14.

(12). "The blood of the souls (persons–nehpheshs) of the innocent poor" Jeremiah 2:34. Dose an immaterial, invisible soul that is in a person have no substance, but it has blood!

(13). "To slay the souls (persons–nehpheshs) that should not die and to save the souls (persons–nehpheshs) alive that should not live" Ezekiel 13:19. If a soul were something that is immortal and cannot die, this passage is completely nonsense.

(14). “He spared not their soul (nehphesh–life) from death” (Psalms 78:50).

(15). "Like a roaring lion ravening the prey, they have devoured souls (nehpheshs–living beings)" Ezekiel 22:25.

(16) “The soul (nehphesh–life) of every living thing” King James Version (Job 12:10). “In whose hand is the life (nehphesh) of every living thing."

(17). "He did not spare their soul (nehphesh–living being) from death, but gave over their life to the plague, and smote all the firstborn in Egypt" (Psalm 78:50).

(18). "The soul (person–nehphesh) who sins will die" Ezekiel 18:4.

(19). Ezekiel 18:20

1. "The SOUL (person–nehphesh) that sins, IT SHALL DIE" King James Version.

2. "The PERSON (nehphesh) who sins SHALL DIE" New Revised Standard Version.

3. "The PERSON (nehphesh) who sins WILL DIE" New American Standard Version, and New Revised English Bible.

4. “It is the PERSON (nehphesh) who sins that WILL DIE” The Revised English Bible.

5. "The PERSON (nehphesh) who sins is the one who WILL DIE" New Century Version, Holman, and Christian Standard Bible.

6. “It is for a MAN’S (nehphesh) own sins that he WILL DIE” The Living Bible.

7. “The PERSON (nehphesh) who sins will be the one who DIES” New Living Translation.

8. “Only THOSE (persons–nehphesh) who sin will be PUT TO DEATH” Contemporary English Version.

9. “Only THE ONE (person–nehphesh) who sins SHALL DIE” The New American Bible, and Today's New International Version.

10. “The PERSON (nehphesh) who sins WILL DIE” God Word Translation.

11. “PEOPLE (nehphesh) WILL DIE because of their own sins” New International Reader's Version.

Ezekiel 18:20 is a person dying (being put to death) for a sin under the Old Testament Law, but by those who believe there is a soul that will not die when the person it was in dies this passage is almost always changed to be referring to something that cannot die. When this is misapply as it often is, to some immaterial something that is believed to be in a person, this is an undeniable statement that the immortal something that they say cannot die will die, that if there were a soul it would not have everlasting life with torment. This is definitely not what they wanted, but what they made in their attempt to make there be a soul that is immortal. If "soul" means "an immortal something that cannot die," then James said, "Shall save from death an immortal something that cannot die" James 5:20. This theology makes nonsense of the Bible.

The divine sentence, "The soul that sins, it shall die" has been revised to say, "The soul that sins, it shall live eternally in torment." Not only must "die" be changed to "eternal life" but after making the change then torment, which is not in Ezekiel 18:20 must be added to it; changed to “a soul that sins, it shall live forever being eternally torment by God.” To make it teach what many want it to teach, first, God's word must be changed, and then added to.

“Shall die” in Ezekiel 18:4 is in contrast to “shall surely live” in Ezekiel 18:9. It is life or death of a living person under the Law that is being spoken of, not two kinds of life after death; if death is only a separation of soul and body as many teach, what is the death of a soul; how can a soul that is alive but separated from God be dead?

(20). IN OVER 320, over one-third of the about 870 times that nehphesh, the Hebrew word that is translated or mistranslated soul, it is used of souls,

1. Of souls (nehphesh) that are already dead.

2. Of souls (nehphesh) that can die, and can be killed.

3. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be buried.

4. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be sought to be killed.

5. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be murdered.

6. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be delivered from death.

7. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be smote (killed).

8. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be affected.

9. Of souls (nehphesh) that can be cut off.

In most of these passages the translators of the King James and other translations have hidden from the readers that the very thing they believe to be immortal and cannot die, that it can and does die. By picking when they translated nehphesh into soul and picking when to translate "nehphesh" into "life," "person" and many other words. Can such hiding have been anything more then a deliberate deceiving because they wanted to teach Plato’s Greek philosophy of a deathless souls in place of the resurrection of dead persons? But even in the King James Version there are many passages which says that souls (nehpheshs) can and do die, or that souls are already dead.

Nehphesh (often mistranslated into the pagan Greek deathless, no substance “soul”) is a physical person or animal, whether they are living or dead.

SOULS CAN BE KILLED BY OTHERS

1. "We feared greatly for our soul (nehphesh–life, living being) because of you” (Joshua 9:24). They feared for their life, not for a deathless being that was in them.

2. "All the men who were seeking your soul (nehphesh–life) are dead” (Exodus 4:19).

3. “Saul had come out to seek his life (nehphesh–life, living being) while David was in the wilderness” (1 Samuel 23:15).

4. They had to flee to save their souls (nehpheshs–lives, living beings) (2 King 7:7), their lives (nehphesh–living being) would be utterly destroyed "with the edge of the sword" or other weapons (Joshua 10:27; 10:30; 10:32; 10:35, 10:37; 10:39).

5. “And deliver our lives (nehpheshs–living beings) from death” (Joshua 2:13).

SOULS CAN DIE FOR LACK OF FOOD

Not only could souls (nehpheshs–living beings) be killed by their enemies, but souls (nehpheshs–living beings) could also die for lack of food (Lamentations 1:11; Numbers 11:6).

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I clearly see a purpose. Because when we die in our bodies expire, Paul said that we depart from our body to be with the Lord. We Still exist because we're all alive to the Lord, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and God's Not God of the dead, but the living. And the purposes that we have to get our Immortal bodies to rule on this Earth again. So, if we depart from our body, we have to be somewhere. And it's a waiting the body so that we can live on this Earth. Heaven's only temporary for us not.

By the way, everybody, existing is not the same thing as living. If people are in hell in the second death, that doesn't mean they're not existing. And it doesn't mean they're alive either. Living and existing are not the same thing.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I clearly see a purpose. Because when we die and our bodies expire, Paul said that we depart from our body to be with the Lord. We Still exist because we're all alive to the Lord, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and God's Not God of the dead, but the living. And the purposes that we have to get our Immortal bodies to rule on this Earth again. So, if we depart from our body, we have to be somewhere. And it's a waiting the body so that we can live on this Earth. Heaven's only temporary for us not.

By the way, everybody, existing is not the same thing as living. If people are in hell in the second death, that doesn't mean they're not existing. And it doesn't mean they're alive either. Living and existing are not the same thing.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Esaias, how do u view Mark 12:26-27, in regard to explaining what part(& how) of those mentioned, are currently living?

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I believe the immortal soul doctrine is a neo platonic construct read into scripture that can not be found in the original texts.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Everlasting life starts not at death but at the resurrection, Daniel 12:2

https://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-th...f-the-soul.htm

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I'm just saying that leaving the body to be with the Lord can only be in soul and spirit going to heaven.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I mentioned earlier than life is not necessarily existence.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

A living soul is a living being, with the breath of life that comes from God. I see lt as mind/body and breath.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

However, Paul spoke of his presence with the Lord in a sense of conscious existence.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

First of all, the context is "that the dead rise". Jesus is proving the resurrection, not an intermediate state, that was the point of debate with the Sadducees.

He says God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, as a proof that the dead will in fact resurrect. Since He is God of the living, not the dead, then Abraham etc must come back to life, therefore the dead are raised.

Remember, Christ's argument is that there will be a resurrection, not that the dead aren't dead but actually alive. It is the dead that are resurrected, not the living.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

But this is incorrect. Being with the Lord was taught by Paul to occur at resurrection. Being absent from the body and present with the Lord isn't about out of body experiences, astral travel, or being a disembodied spirit in an intermediate conscious state. It's about resurrection.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

But Jesus put the emphasis on the current time when He spoke saying God was God of Abraham at that moment, and thereby implied Abraham was alive at that moment.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Romans 14:8-9 tells us that Christ both died and rose and revived that he might be Lord both of the dead and living that whether dead or alive we are the Lord's. So that really clarifies the verses in Mark. It's not that everyone must be alive in some capacity to belong to the Lord. That is why there is a category of people called "the dead in Christ".

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

But Jesus is not speaking from the perspective of what we find in Romans. Romans speaks from our perspective on earth when people are dead in our presence or alive in our presence. For Jesus to say that Abraham was alive, we understand that from our perspective on earth, he was alive when in his body, but dead when absent from his body, noting God's perspective saw him with Hi

Also, I never claimed it is saying everyone must be alive in some respect if they belong to the Lord. I meant that the title fo God being the God of Abraham was used by Jesus to show that it's an indication that those like Arbaham, who have gone on, are absent from us but present with the Lord.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

If Abraham etc were at that time alive, then they never died, and cannot be resurrected. Christ was not trying to prove a conscious intermediate state, but a future RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I understand what your saying but once again there is no mention of an intermediate state and the context is the resurrection. The basis of his Lordship is his death and resurrection not the perspective or location of the dead and living, of course the dead would have no perception of reality.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

I totally disagree. He was asked about resurrection, yes, but let them know also that Abraham was alive. Departed from the world, but present with God. Jesus flatly stated that abraham is alive. God s not God of those who will be alive, but of those who are alive. This is what Paul says about resurrecting also. Absence from body.. Dead from our perspective.. but with Lord... Alive from his. To be rejoined to body and alive in world again.

Re: What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?
 

Paul expounded on that in 2 cor 5. Absence from body is presence with lord.