Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

This is continuing the earlier thread about magic in the Church.

In this video Bishop Arnold refers to himself practicing magic and teaching magicians. Also says he is especially entertaining KIDS OVER 50.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bQ7WsRN6Vg[/url



In this next video while teaching a Bible study you can see an IDOL OF A CHINESE GOD directly behind his head.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=De8SnHZq5sk

Is this an IDOL? An image of a foreign god?

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...ior-deity-duke

Excerpt:

How influential is he?

Being one of the most popular and influential deities of imperial China, Duke Guan has the same importance as the Buddhist bodhisattva Guanyin, or Kwun Yum, as known in Hong Kong. In Confucianism, he is of the same rank as Confucius. Lord Guan is honoured as one of the “Saints of War”, also known as the “Saint of Wu”, as a translation of the Chinese term reflecting the ability to use violence in a positive way, while Confucius is called a “Saint of Culture”. In Taoism, Guan Yu is a guardian deity.

Thanks to Nicodemus for spotting the idol and Votiesoul for showing the identity.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Paul states that idols are nothing, but TO THOSE THAT WORSHIP THEM, there is a demonic force behind it.

So now that you’ve accused JA of being a witch, are you now accusing him of worshipping an idol?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Why is an IDOL of a Chinese God behind his head here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwcxl6-WAw&t=209s

Guan Yu

Being one of the most popular and influential deities of imperial China, Duke Guan has the same importance as the Buddhist bodhisattva Guanyin, or Kwun Yum, as known in Hong Kong. In Confucianism, he is of the same rank as Confucius. Lord Guan is honoured as one of the “Saints of War”, also known as the “Saint of Wu”, as a translation of the Chinese term reflecting the ability to use violence in a positive way, while Confucius is called a “Saint of Culture”. In Taoism, Guan Yu is a guardian deity.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So an IDOL is ok to have even when doing a Bible study? As long as your not worshiping it? Why would one have an idol?

Im not accusing him of worshiping it but when you have a mix of magic and idolatry it seems something is off here.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Please go read and study the Bible for a while, and try to figure out why it makes you feel empowered to be sitting on your little judgemental throne. You are really not doing yourself any favors, as you are revealing a lack of spiritual discernment and Bible knowledge.


1Co 8:4.. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one...


1Co 8:9.. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak...
1Co 8:10.. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;..
1Co 8:11.. And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?..


If the videos are offending you...

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So a famous Apostolic Bishop refers to himself PRACTICING MAGIC as per the video then the same man is seen in the other video with an IDOL OF A CHINESE GOD right behind his head and you warn ME to go read the Bible! :heeheehee

1 John 5:21

Little children KEEP YOURSELVES FROM.....IDOLS.

Paul is talking about eating things offered to idols. John is saying KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Are you going to respond to Votivesoul's post?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

The following is the quote from VoltivesouI:

"If he is not doing demonic-based or demonic-led magic, is he transgressing the law of God, that is, is he sinning, in this regard?



So, again, the issue is merely his choice of words. Doesn't this seem like an awful lot to come down on him for? A poor choice of words? Especially when the word used to describe the actions in no way actually describes and therefore validates the use of the word? He calls it magic. You admit he is not practicing magic, at least any kind of magic that would be tied to the demonic, and therefore to sorcery and therefore to wickedness and sin. So, at worst, it appears to be a mere misnomer, wouldn't you agree?

And if that is the case, again, isn't this an awful lot to come down on him for?



And how do you know it will hurt young people? Your choice of words offers us a guarantee that it will happen. How do you know for sure? Or are you assuming/making an educated guess?



Doesn't a person's motive and intent have to be taken into account? If I hear some info that isn't completely accurate and I pass it along to you, have I deceived you, or merely passed on some inaccurate information?

If JA calls what he is doing magic, even though it's not, as you admit, and if he shows how all the tricks are accomplished, and what's more, the ENTIRE AUDIENCE is already in on the trick--which is the whole point of the entertainment--I fail to see where the deception is, except for the minor misnomer already mentioned.



What's the difference between doing them "out of the Church" or in? A saint is a saint is a saint, and a member of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, right? If it's wrong to do in or during or as a representation of the Church, wouldn't it be wrong to do these things in private?



But you've already admitted that what he is doing isn't even (demonic) magic, so where's the association? Just because sometimes some things can be associated together, it doesn't follow that they have to be, or always are. Wine is associated with drunkenness, so should a member of the Body of Christ not drink wine as part of their communal love feast when they celebrate the Paschal Lamb of God?

By this token, if, as you mention, beards are sometimes by some people negatively associated with certain aspects of the cultural climate, it would be better to shave and not be so associated. Is that not right?

It seems to me, too many things can be associated with sin if one is looking to make those associations, even if they are otherwise unwarranted. Perhaps that is the case here?



Have you contacted the Pentecostals of Gainesville and spoken with JA about your concern of him not being perfect before God in this matter, and so, out of the will of God?

If not, you can do so here:

http://gainesvilleupc.net/contact-us/"


Here you go Michael. Perhaps now you can reply. Blessings

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

He’s not going to respond.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

I wonder why?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Sorry I never saw this. I struggled it through on the other thread. Sorry you went through the trouble. Still having the issue in the other thread. Please address any conversation on the topic to this thread. Thanks.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So now would anyone like to comment on the IDOL...THE CHINESE IDOL GOD that appears in the MAGIC video right behind the GREAT MALONEYS head?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

I missed this in Aarons post.
Concerning beards the Bible shows having one in a good light. So associations to things that are not in a good light are invalid.

I think the associations here are plainly shown as sin. Magic? Idols? Taken together seems scary.

In no way was I looking to associate this man with evil. I had been watching their live stream various times and noticed MAGIC MONDAY.

Now we can see that for some reason there is an IDOL CHINESE GOD behind his head in his videos.

Isnt something off here Aaron?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

QUOTE=Michael The Disciple;1587113]This is continuing the earlier thread about magic in the Church.

You started this thread by stating this was a continuation of the other thread, so why won't you address Voltivesoul's post here?

It appears that you are not wanting to answer the questions presented in Voltivesouls's post, but you want to keep regurgitating your same lame arguement. How can anyone take you seriously?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Would you like to comment on the IDOL behind the Bishops head? Why no interest in something that should be shocking?

If anyone wants to see what I said to Aaron its in the other thread.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So, Bro Arnold is worshiping an idol? That is what John is talking about, and I noticed you failed to comment on what Paul said
, that


1Co 8:4.. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one...

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Serious question, MTD: Do you actually want to know what his motive is, or are you only interested in finding out who does and doesn't agree with you? I feel you'd be better served contacting the brother yourself, and asking these questions of him directly if you truly want to understand his motivations. By posting here, all you're doing is gossiping.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Okay, asimplied in the thread title, Let's talk about being apostolic.

Jesus plainly taught us to go to the brother alone first about a concern. Then if he won't hear you, bring others.

MTD, you have bypassed that entire procedure, but have instead done what the world does. Shout it out to everyone and not even giving the brother the christian chance to explain himself.

So, what's really apostolic here?

APOSTOLIC BROTHER NEGLECTS JESUS' COMMAND TO GO BROTHER ALONE FIRST.

Should have started that thread!

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Sure ignore the fact a big name Bishop says he PRACTICES MAGIC. Then we see him doing a Bible study with AN IDOL.....AN IDOL.....right behind him

Dance all around it and have some good clean fun!

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Yes I bypassed it. I doubt very many people on this Forum who have singled out MANY people over the years discussing their situations have ever done it either.

Jesus is right. I am wrong.

We also know the chances of me talking to him are very slim. I have attempted one contact with him. I will attempt one more. We also know already chances are very slim he will repent. And if he never gets back with me will that justify this?

Practicing Magic and idolatry.

There is no fear of God left.

Mike Blume. Now that you KNOW Bishop Arnold has an idol sitting behind him on the worldwide web.......

How do YOU PERSONALLY feel about that? You have spoken about casting out demons before. Is there IYO any open doors from IDOLS TO DEVILS?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Actually Im sounding the alarm! An Apostolic Preacher says in his words he is PRACTICING MAGIC. HE TEACHES MAGICIANS.

Also while teaching Bible study he has an IDOL. An idol that is WORSHIPED by people.....right behind him.

Wouldnt you say that is FLAUNTING a grave sin right before our eyes?

Hypnotists and magicians are very clever. They do it openly and right before peoples eyes and whats the reaction?

Its good clean fun!

Theres no fear of God left.

Lets see if the next time a Preacher is discussed here if anyone goes to them first.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people". Eleanor Roosevelt


If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. James 1:26

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Whether or not there is likelihood he will repent is not the point. We still have to talk to the person BEFORE doing this publicly here. Not matte who else failed as well on this forum.

As per the idol, I will check what you folks spoke of. I have not been following. But idols only have the power we give them.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

How many people on the forum here have came to me privately before accusing me of the things they accuse me of? I am personally attacked in practically every thread I am in.

I have been personally attacked in threads I was not even in.

Should you tell everyone here to come to everyone else here privately before they say anything about them?

Explain how that works.

1 John 5:21

Little children keep yourselves from idols.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

An idol is an image. It is nothing in itself. When it is given identity by people it becomes a place for devils.

1 Cor. 10:19-20

19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

The IDOL directly behind JA is identified by name and is actually worshiped by people. So why.....is it directly behind him? Are we supposed to think a man with his knowledge would not know this is an image/idol?

Is that keeping ourselves from idols?

An IDOL is something symbolizing someone or thing that is worshiped either above GOD or along with God. The God of heaven hates idolatry.

I found 101 verses in Strongs talking about idols. There are many more. To God its a big thing.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

An idol/image has no power of its own. Devils are attracted to them that deceive men. Thats why we are to keep ourselves from them.

1 Cor 10:19-20

19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

I will be waiting for your comment on the one behind the head of JA.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

The statue is apparently a statue of a famous historical Chinese general who came to be worshipped by a lot of superstitious Chinese folks. As such, it seems to on par with a bust or painting of one of the Caesars. Although worshipped as a god by many Romans, the bust was still merely a statue of a man. It would in my opinion be quite different if we were talking about a statue of Zeus or Mithra or some other definite pagan god.

Although, personally I would NOT have any statues of anyone who had a known cult of worship surrounding them, even if they themself were just some historical personage. That to me is skating on thin ice.

But as for parlour tricks being forbidden by God, why haven't you answered my two very simple questions?

1. Where is magic FORBIDDEN, and

2. Is JA doing that which is SCRIPTURALLY FORBIDDEN?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Esaias, I answered this question long ago in reference to the discussion. Post 176 of the first thread. I went back through dozens of posts trying to find it.
My answer was:
Now you may disagree with my answer but I did answer. To you it may have been wrong but it is my answer.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So do you think it strange that an Apostolic leader called a Bishop would have this image/idol directly behind him even as he is teaching Bible studies?

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

I was hoping for the Scripture that forbids "magic", followed by a clear demonstration that JA is doing what that Scripture said not to do.

Needless to say I am once again disappointed in your approach to teaching. But since that is where you intend to leave it, I won't be asking anything more of you.

Thanks.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

So, you're saying that you are somehow justified to go outside of biblical instruction and not go to JA first before accusing him of idolatry and sorcery because others failed to come to you first?

Can't you see that your arguement shows a lack of maturity and depth?

You present yourself as a minister of the gospel but fail to live by the Word.

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17


16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16-19

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

To begin with I said Jesus is right and I am wrong. That is always truth.

Now when I really consider the verse in question it seems to be more as a personal matter of brother between brother. A bit different perhaps than a national EVENT such as I am discussing here. I wonder if the person or persons who told Paul about the man having sex with his Fathers wife first went to the man and his mother and told them about their fault before they told Paul about it?

And did Paul go to the man first and question him about it or did he take the word of the one who told him? It seems Paul judged when he heard the matter and took action. Did he ever talk to the man personally?


You and others here dont seem to have a problem accusing me personally of all kinds of things. Some are the persons true perception of me. Others are made up lies.

What I am seeing unfortunately is that something that should be considered staggering is happening right before our eyes in the Church and people are not even moved by it. No rather fighting to defend it!

Please point out to me where I have personally slandered or attacked you? If you think I have? You seem to have no problem calling me proud, a liar, devising evil and so forth. Got it.

I just want to know if you think I have personally slandered you? If so show me the quote.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

People are just not being moved by your lackluster presentation of the issue, actually.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

If it was a preacher preaching a hot sermon from the pulpit talking about someone who said with their own mouth they practiced magic and taught magicians AND sets in a room teaching scripture with an IDOL directly behind him it would tear the house down with shock!

To me there shouldnt need to be a drawn out legal case covering hundreds of posts to prove that God is against magic and idols. It should be second nature to the saints of God.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

You seem to be PERSONALLY offended by what you witnessed on JA's video so the scripture was fitting. It was interesting how you ignored Proverbs 6:16-19.

You threw false accusations against me then asked me to show you where you "personally attacked or slandered me". Your quote from above, "You seem to have no problem calling me proud, a liar, devising evil and so forth. Got it." I have never hurled any of those insults at you.

Stop the pearl clutching and move on! No one has to make any case against your arguements. You're doing a fine job on your own.

I am done interacting with you.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

I thought the scriptures were pointed to me personally. Sorry you and I cannot connect. Blessings.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Don't compare yourself with others. Our wrong is not excused by others who did the same wrong. Will God let you off because many others did the same thing to you, so that makes it okay for violating the Lord's word. You know what I mean.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

I wish this would cease until MTD contacts Bro Arnold. Jesus never said anything about personal versus something else. It says if you are offended, which you are, MTD, then go to the brother ALONE first, which you have not done..


So, until that has been done I am not even going to bother checking out this idol thing. It just takes this deeper the wrong route of not even having contacted Bro Arnold yourself first.

And no that is not an excuse I am using to leave the issue alone.

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

Amen! The Biblical approach is always best! :highfive

Re: Magic And Idols In Apostolic Church
 

See no evil, just turn your head and look the other way.....