The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

There are some teachers like David Bernard that state that the saints of the Old Testament didn’t have the assistance of the Spirit to overcome sin. They usually cite Roman 7, and John 7:39. They say that you can’t have a victorious life against sin unless you have the Spirit, but because the Spirit “wasn’t given” before Christ then the saints of the OT couldn’t have a victorious life over sin.

Is that the case?

So I did a study through the OT about this and these are my findings and conclusions:


THE ROLE OF THE SPIRIT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

Pentateuch

Enoch

It is said that Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The same expression is used later for Noah, who it is said of be a righteous man (Genesis 6:9, 7:1). Enoch it is said to have pleased God by the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 11:5). We can then understand it as Enoch pleased God with his faith and righteousness. ``walking with God'' indicates a close relationship with Him, where God leads him and he lives his life according to God's righteousness. We can see that Enoch could live without practicing sin. He must have had the assistant of the Spirit of God.

Noah
The Spirit strives with humanity (Genesis 6:3). The Lord says He will not strive with them forever and limits humans lifetime. The context is the decadence of humanity, so the limiting of the lifetime is to contain evildoing. Therefore, we can understand ``strive'' as convicting of sin, to the unjust, or even the just struggling with sin.

Noah it is said of walking with God as well, and being righteous before the Lord, and a man of faith (Genesis 6:9, 13, 7:1, Hebrews 11:7). He found grace in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8). Phrases like ``walking with God'', ``righteous before [the Lord]'' (and not his own invention of what righteousness is), and the fact that he was instructed by God and he obeyed, indicate a close relationship with God. He must have had the assistant of the Spirit of God as well. The Spirit strove with humanity, but Noah must have been one of the ones that responded.

Abraham
God calls Abraham and makes a covenant with him (Genesis 17:1-9). In the establishing of the covenant, God calls Abraham to ``walk before Him and be blameless''. This expression indicates to live in righteousness before God (2 King 20:3). We can see that in fact Abraham obeyed God's voice and kept his commandments, which includes the covenant promises, and laws (Genesis 26:5). It is said of Abraham to be a man of faith (Hebrews 11:8-12), and to be justified before God by faith (Romans 4:3). Justified means that he obtained the promise by grace through faith, not by his righteousness. However, we saw that there was an expectation for Abraham to live in righteousness. He did make mistakes along the way (Genesis 12:11-13), however the final testimony as seen in Genesis 26:5 is that he did not live in iniquity. Abraham is also said to be a prophet (Genesis 20:7). Prophets of God do have the Spirit in them as we will see in a below. Abraham must have had the assistant of the Spirit to overcome sin.

Israel leaders
The Spirit filled people in the congregation of Israel in the wilderness in order to empower them supernaturally. The empowerment was to perform work related to the building of the sanctuary, where the sacrificial system would take place according to the law (Exodus 31:3, Exodus 35:30-34).

Seventy two people total were filled with the Spirit as well in the wilderness to assist Moses with the ruling of Israel (Numbers 11:25-27). It says that the Spirit ``rested'' on them, and that they prophesied, but did not do it again. Prophesying was reported as the visible sign of the infilling of the Spirit. In fact, there was a young man that could recognize the experience happening in the camp to two more people. The infilling of the Spirit was a clear experience for the individual, and at least in this case, there was a noticeable external sign for the people watching. The text does also say that they did not prophesy again, therefore, even though the visible sign was prophesying, the infilling was not to empower as prophet, but as rulers.

It is said also that Joshua was already filled with the Spirit by the time he was called as successor (Numbers 27:18). Joshua was a man of faith and also righteous (Numbers 14:6-9, Joshua 1:8, Joshua 24:14-15).

Balaam

Balaam was a prophet of the Lord on whom was the Spirit of God. He seemed to understand well the obedience the Lord demanded, and knew when he sinned against God (Numbers 22:18,34, 24:2). Even though he served God and he had the Spirit upon his life, he still fell for the love of money (Numbers 31:16).

Conclusions

According to Romans 7 and 8, a human without the assistance of the Spirit cannot overcome sin. We do see in the Pentateuch of people walking right before Him, therefore, we can deduct that they must have had the assistance of the Spirit in their daily life. We can see also the Spirit of God ``striving'' with humanity, meaning convicting them of iniquity. The Spirit also came and rested upon people to empower them in a supernatural way to perform works. The only time we see an account of the moment people were being filled with the Spirit, we see the receivers prophesying, and also ceasing to do so afterwards, probably because in this specific instance, their empowerment was not to be prophets but rulers.

In the Historical Books

Judges, Prophets, David, and Saul

After Israel took Canaan, God raised leaders called judges to govern over the Israelites and deliver them from their enemies. We see in many instances the Spirit of God coming upon them to empower them supernaturally to perform the task they were called to do (Judges 3:10, 6:34, 14:19).

When Samuel gave Saul instructions, he said that the Spirit of God would come upon him, and he would prophesy and he would be turned into another man (1 Samuel 10:6-7). Then he said that when these signs happened, to do what the occasion demands because God is with him. Basically, the prophesying event was a sign of him being filled with the Spirit, and the turned into another man refers to the empowerment he would receive from thereon to lead the people of Israel.

About David, it is also said that the Spirit came upon him to lead Israel after Samuel anointed him (1 Samuel 16:13). However, before this anointing, we can see David testifying that the Lord gave him victory over beasts before (1 Samuel 17:37). We can assume that the Spirit came upon David before to deliver his flock and himself from the lion and the bear with his own hands, but the Spirit coming upon him after Samuel's anointing refers to the empowerment to lead Israel.

During the time of Samuel, we see other prophets as well beside him, that at this point we can say that they were filled with the Spirit as well (1 Samuel 10:5, 1 Samuel 19:20). Therefore, the filling of the Spirit was happening in more people than the Bible details.

After Saul was rejected by God, the Spirit left him (1 Samuel 16:14). Therefore, the Spirit can definitely leave an individual after infilling.

We can see that Saul received the Spirit with the sign of prophesying, and the Spirit was with him from thereon. We see the Spirit eventually left him. Therefore, there was a continuity, not a come-leave-come-leave situation. The same can be seen in David, it is said that it came upon him from the time the anointing of Samuel, as it were an on going thing. Therefore, the phrase come upon means a specific moment in which a visible manifestation of the empowerment of the Spirit happens to perform a work. It does not mean that it comes, and then leaves, and then comes again, and then leaves.

Understanding after Captivity

The book of Nehemiah records a prayer that helps us to see their understanding of the role of the Spirit during the wilderness and the historical books. They said that the Spirit of God instructed them during the time when the manna was given, and that also God testified against them by His Spirit in his prophets (Nehemiah 9:20, 9:30). Therefore, we can see that they were referring to the instructing of God through Moses in the Law, and then the ministry of the prophets admonishing them until the Captivity.

Conclusions

The Spirit of God empowered people to perform works. The phrase come upon was used to signify that visible moment of the manifestation of the empowerment. The Spirit can definitely leave an individual as result of being rejected. Prophesying was again the only sign recorded of the moment of infilling.

The people of God recognized the work of the Spirit through Moses during the giving of the Law and through the prophets.

In Psalms

The Spirit speaks through Nathan the prophets to correct David and he repented (Psalms 51:1-3). The Psalmist testifies that God leads them into righteousness (Psalms 23:3). In Psalms 32, the Psalmist tells his struggle with an unconfessed sin, and in verse 8, the Psalm turns into a prophetic word of God leading him.

In Psalms 119:33-40, the Psalmist prays for assistance from God to understand and live in righteousness according to his commandments. There was an expectation that God could provide that help, otherwise there would not be a prayer for a daily assistance like that.

The Psalmist in Psalms 73 tells the story of being tempted in his reasoning to turn to evil but when coming into the house of God, he comes to his sense, and then acknowledge the work of the Spirit to bring him back to his sense in verse 21 to 24.

There are also many occurrences in the Psalms of prophetic speaking in the Spirit (Matt 22:43).

Conclusions

We can see in the Psalms the work of the Spirit assisting the Psalmists to walk in righteousness. These Psalms were expected to be used in worship, praising and prayers by the people. Therefore, they were definitely a representation of the work of the Spirit to assist his godly saints in Israel that desired to walk in his commandments and overcome sin.

If the Psalmist did have a different experience fighting to walk in righteousness, the relevance of the Psalms as prayers for us is less than we think.

Jeremiah
Jeremiah was a prophet, filled with the Holy Spirit. The same prophetic gift he had, God used to edifying him directly with direct words to his soul, e.g. Jer 15:19. So the gift of prophecy in the OT could be used by God to edify the prophet himself.


Overall conclusions so far
Look around your church. Do you see in practice any significant difference between their daily struggle and mistakes and the story of those men in the Old Testament? Are the saints in the Church significantly more perfect than the saints described in the OT?

I argue that in the OT, those that approached God with faith (Rom 9:31-32), and a contrite and humble spirit, found Him (Isa 57:15, Isa 66:1-2), and received assistance from the Spirit, and probably even some of them the Holy Spirit to empower them as prophets (Luke 11:13). They would have prayed the prayer of Psalm 119. They must have believed that God could justify them in his mercy, and will provide a way for their sins to be remitted, pointing to a future Christ. God also used teachers and prophets to correct and rebuke one another to walk in holiness and righteousness.


(to be continued..., I will go a little bit more into the Prophets, and then into the Gospels, Acts and Epistles, and then I will offer a different explanation for Rom 7 and John 7:39. There is a difference in the NT regarding the Holy Spirit, and I will explain what I have)

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Very good!

I'll comment more after you add the next part.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Nowhere I have read where God did not give grace to those who sought it. If the OT saints had a distinct disadvantage over sin, where is it mentioned in the NT ??

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Teachers from the UPCI, e.g. David Bernard, Raymond Woodward, teach so.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Does the NT teach this concept ? Yes, we have a better covenant. Does God give more grace now than then ? What about during the other dispensations ?

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

continuation

In Ez 36:24-27, there is a prophetic message to the People of God that the Spirit will dwell among them and cause them to walk in His statues. The direct context of the prophecy is talking about the return from the captivity. Did this have a fuller fulfillment in Pentecost? We will see.


Luke - Acts
The Spirit filled and moved OT saints in the Gospels (Luke 1:41, Luke 1:67, Luke 2:25-32).

In Acts, the Spirit it is said to be sent by Jesus (Acts 2:33), and that it is the promise of the Father (Acts 1:7). The purpose: power to witness of the resurrection of Christ (Acts 1:8). In fact, the God did signs through the Apostles to confirm their witnessing.

Notice that Luke uses the same terminology of Luke 1 and 2 in Acts when people were filled with the Spirit or the Spirit manifesting in them (Acts 2:4, Acts 4:31, Acts 4:8, Acts 7:55, Acts 10:44-47). For Luke, it was a continuation of the same experience, but definitely with a new dimension in purpose: to witness of the resurrection of Christ to expand the Kingdom by conversion. There is more to it. The Spirit comes now in the name of Jesus, and it is the blessing of Abraham to the nations (Gal 3:14). It is an earnest (guarantee) of the inheritance, because those that are filled with the Spirit in Jesus name, are in the group called the people of God, therefore heirs.

Peter says that what they were seeing was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29 (Acts 2:16).
That prophecy is a promise for the people of God, that they will all receive the Holy Spirit. So, if you don’t have it, you are not part of the people of God. More about this prophecy in a moment.

John
In John 3:3-15 Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom. Notice that according to John 3:10, Nicodemus was supposed to understand this metaphor. Being born again was a metaphor and nothing else, but the reality is being filled of the Spirit and being baptized. The metaphor suits well because to enter into the Kingdom you need to be born into it by faith, and no longer being a descendant of Abraham counts (which apparently, it was the confidence of some, e.g. Luke 3:8).

My conclusions

1. The people of God were a group of people that were descendants of Abraham in the flesh. They were part of the promise through the circumcision.
2. Not all of them were truly fearers of God, were not contrite, humbled, turned to God. In fact, I would say that at some point, the majority didn't approach God by faith (Rom 9:32).
3. The Lord says in Ez 36:24-27 that they will receive his Spirit which will help them walk in his ways, and in Joel 2:28-29 that his Spirit will be upon all of them, and will prophesy, see visions and dreams.
4. After Pentecost, the people of God have all the Spirit, in fact, it is a requirement to be part of the group.
5. To enter into this group you have to be, figuratively, born again, which means filled with the Spirit and baptized. The latter corresponds with circumcision (Col 2:11-12).
6. The process of adoption into the Kingdom starts with believing in Jesus, and from there, you will end up with rivers of living waters in you (John 7:38)
7. The Spirit empowers them to witness, and that way to expand the Kingdom of God by conversion. That is different comparing with the OT.
8. The Spirit empowers them to speak in tongues, not just in their native language (like the prophets in Israel).
9. The Spirit also empowers them to edify each others, and themselves (1 Cor 12).

So, from Pentecost and beyond, the people of God are not those that are born as descendants of Abraham, but those that are born of the Spirit, descendants of Abraham by the faith.

I see a transition from people of God according to the flesh, to people of God according to the Spirit and faith. By making this transition, the prophecies of Joel and Ez got completely fulfilled.

From the individual standpoint, the saints of the OT, the ones that trusted and feared God, even those before Moses, were overcomers regarding sin. They had the assistance of the Spirit to achieve this, and many were empowered by the Spirit to be prophets (I can’t tell from the evidences if they all were prophets). The saints of the NT have all the Spirit of God in the name of Jesus, with a different mission, and it is, in fact, a requirement to be in the people of God.


... and then this ties well with the theology of the promised Kingdom of God with the Christ as King, first being at hand, and then being the church, and eventually being manifested to the world at His coming. But I will try to stay focus in the role of the Spirit... :)

(I will continue tomorrow, posting my explanations of some of the verses used to support the objections).

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Thank you! :)

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Good question. I'll get back to it. I need to write the last part, which are just notes right now. Hopefully tomorrow morning.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

This was their disadvantage.....

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

continuation, and final post



Mary, and the disciples
In Luke 1:46-55, we can see that Mary sang in the Spirit. You would think that she was already filled, and didn’t need to be in the upper room the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14).

In the OT, the Spirit would infill you to be a prophet or to be a leader in Israel in some way.
The Spirit would assist you as well to overcome sin.
Again, I can’t tell if you needed to be infilled to be assisted against sin.

In the NT, the Spirit comes with this purpose:
* To empower you to preach the testimony of the Apostles (Acts 1)
* To cause you to walk in Christ, through leading, spiritual gifts and ministries (1 Cor 12, Eph 4)

It also come with a meaning:
* The Kingdom of God has been manifested in the Spirit, which is the Church. The Spirit is a promise and a requirement. (Acts 2)
* It is a seal (1 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30)
* It is an earnest (1 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14)

Seeing these differences, then yes, Mary needed a refilled with this new dimension, and the disciples, regardless of past experiences, needed it.

Also, take into account that these people were in a special moment in history: they were alive during the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in Christ.

John 7:38-39

John 7:38-39 can then also be explained along those lines.


Roman 7-8
Who relevant is this to explain the condition of the Old Testament saints?

Paul starts in verse 7 with a Impersonation (prosopopeia) of somebody that knows the law (presumably and Israelite), and tries to please God by attempting to be subject to it without the Spirit.
Then he goes to say, that those that are led by the Spirit have no condemnation because of the work of the Cross (8:1-4). Then, he says that you need the Spirit to be able to overcome sin, and that a carnal mind cannot subject to the law (8:6-8). Finally, it says that if you do not have the Spirit you are not his (8:9). Then he continues with more explanations of the role of the Spirit.

It is relevant that it teaches you the truth that you need the Spirit to overcome sin, and you also need the work of the cross, regardless. However, Rom 7:7-25 is not representing an OT saint without the Spirit, but it is simply a prosopopeia to explain the reality of the struggle of the flesh to subject to the law on its own.


THE END

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

That's not what we are talking about. Did you read what I posted?

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Old Testament saints were not born again of the Spirit because the Spirit had not been given as a free gift to whoever believeth on Jesus. That is Bible. Certainly, the God who is Spirit aided people in the Old Testament, but the abiding precense of the Spirt IN them was not a reality at that point.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

The NT is vague about the role of the Spirit directly on the soul to overcome sin in the Old Testament, beside telling us the role through the prophets.

Yes we do, I agree. However, I do not see a difference regarding the personal assistance of the Spirit to overcome sin.

We have always be saved by grace through faith, since Adam.

I do not believe in dispensations as dispensationalist do. I do believe that individuals have always been saved by grace through faith, looking at Christ in the future for their remission of sins, or looking at Christ in the past for the same.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

I went thoroughly through the Bible to prove that point wrong, and I also gave an explanation of that verse in harmony with the rest of the Old Testament and the Gospel of Luke 1 and 2.

EDIT: by the way, regarding this "who is Spirit aided people in the Old Testament", the teachers I posted believe that there was no aid whatsoever. They were totally on their own, like people without Christ today do good, but if they start practicing sin then, there is no chance. Basically, the OT saints didn't have the chance to repent, and overcome practicing sin or something. So, what you believe is already different than what they believe already.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

The Spirit coming upon people to empower them for a task is quite different than the Spirit abiding IN someone whose sins have been purged by faith in Christ and his shed blood. New Testament saints are indeed PERFECT in the eyes of God while Old Testament saints could never be.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

And I refuted your thesis with one verse. Unknowingly, you are cheapening the blood of Christ and its significance.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Yes, that makes the New Covenant a better covenant, yet it is regarding redemption.

The rest of your post was addressed already in my original long posts.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

I don't think I am. The blood of the Lamb is for our redemption, and Christ as King is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God in the Spirit in the New Covenant. The point of my posts is the role of the Spirit to walk in righteousness and holiness through the ages. Not in the lines of what you are trying to say.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Could you please harmonize that with Bible with the rest of the Spirit giving and infilling in the OT? Could you please present an alternate explanation to everything I posted?

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Your view's basic flaw is that it fails to distinguish the New Testament experience of regeneration by the Spirit from Old Testament interventions and anointings by the Holy Spirit. Nobody denies the dynamic intervention of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. The nature of that intervention is what is being disputed.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Yes, in my last post, I presented where the different is, which I said it is the purpose and meaning, which I call a new "dimension".

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

But it was not universal or available as a free gift to whosoever will based on the blood of Christ. John 7 is clearly describing something unique that would not be available until Jesus was glorified. The epistles are loaded with doctrine that distinguishes this experience from anything occurring in the Old Testament. To say there is no significant difference is to completely miss the whole point of Calvary and the new birth.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

"universal or available as a free gift" so the OT saints that got it deserved it?

If you can't overcome sin unless the Spirit leads you, how is it that the Bible itself testifies that certain people were righteous before the Lord? How could they walk like that? How could people even repent and stay? How could the overcome after been practicing sin?


If their experience regarding their attempt to walk in righteousness and holiness are "weaker" than ours, then we should see saints in our Churches with a lot more righteousness and holiness than Abraham, Sarah, Enoch, Noah, David, etc...

Also, if that it is true, then the relevance for us of their narrative and poetry in those areas are questionable because our experience is different and therefore, the expectation both ways is different.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

:spit

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Everything you said was refuted earlier in my posts or you failed to provide Bible to prove it.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Some other interesting passages:

John 6:43-45 (NKJV) 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

The audience of this text is the people of Israel. Those that "heard and learned from the Father" would have recognized the work of Jesus.


Regarding John 7:38-39, another aspect of it is that this new power will allow believers to proclaim the gospel of the risen Christ and the forgiveness of sins based upon His death and resurrection. This, of course, was not possible before He died and rose again.

While the Apostle Paul speaks of the “New Covenant” as one that consists of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, he never says that those who lived under the Old Covenant lacked the Holy Spirit. Under the New Covenant the Holy Spirit works in a greater way in the hearts and lives of believers. The Holy Spirit testifies to the forgiveness that is available in Jesus Christ. He also provides power to the believer to proclaim the message of Jesus. None of this was available during the era of the Old Covenant. (quote from blb.org)

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

In John 4, Jesus said the promised Spirit would impart eternal life. In John 3 he had already said it would bring a new birth. In John 7, it is said that the Spirit that would bring a new birth and eternal life was not yet given.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

You are the refuted one.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Where do you put the Old Testament saints regarding resurrection? They do not inherit eternal life in Christ?
Luke 13:28-29 (NKJV) 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

How can you harmonize with Biblical evidences what you said with the OT experience and end result? Please make sure you use plausible explanations from the Bible, and thoroughly, and not speculative explanations echoing some UPCI teachers position. I am opened to be proven wrong.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Originalist,
I am trying to have an intelligent discussion, in case I missed some important observations.
I don’t think you have taken the time to read carefully my three long posts and looked up the referred verses, and then addressing my interpretation from my own observations in addition to yours. Since that is the case I don’t want to waste my time repeating myself. I think I am being fair and not rude.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Just a thought.
John 7:38-39 (NKJV) He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

What is living waters? What was he referring to that it is in connection with Pentecost?

This was the verse the Jews used to use during that feast: Isaiah 12:3 (NKJV) 3 Therefore with joy you will draw water
From the wells of salvation.

Other mentions of waters are in Eze 47 and Zch 14:8.


It says to be living waters that flow outward. In Eze 47 is associated with healing and life going from Jerusalem towards the Great Sea (the nations). The living waters is also associated to the Spirit starting on the Day of Pentecost.

Do you want to see the rivers of living waters flowing out in action?

Luke 24:46-49 (NKJV) “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Mark 16:15-18 (NKJV) 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


Acts 1:4-8 (NKJV) He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”


Acts 4:33 (NKJV) 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Acts 8:4-8 (NKJV) 4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

Acts 8:14-15 (NKJV) 14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

Now THAT is definitely different from the OT. It is like a river of living waters spreading from Jerusalem bringing healing, deliverance, and the Holy Spirit, and still expanding!

Yet, that doesn't contradict anything regarding the Role of the Spirit in OT saints, helping them to overcome sin, leading them, and infilling them.

(I may be a little bit all over the place on some interpretations. I am thinking through this as I post and put pieces together.)

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

Coksiw, much of what you have written is in line with a lot of things I have discovered over the years in my studies. A key passage is this:

1 Chronicles 16:15-22 KJV
Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; [16] Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; [17] And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, [18] Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance; [19] When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it. [20] And when they went from nation to nation, and from one kingdom to another people; [21] He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, [22] Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

Verse 22 identifies Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as prophets. They had the Holy Spirit leading them and guiding them. Now look at this (a passage you referenced in your first post):

Numbers 11:16-17 KJV
And the Lord said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. [17] And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Moses was a prophet and had the Spirit. God was going to spread that anointing to 70 elders to assist in Israel's leadership.

Numbers 11:24-25 KJV
And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. [25] And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

When the Spirit came upon them, they "prophesied".

Numbers 11:26 KJV
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

Eldad and Medad did not go to the meeting, but the Spirit came upon them anyway. They too "prophesied".

Numbers 11:27-29 KJV
And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. [28] And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. [29] And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Moses expresses a desire that ALL of God's people would be prophets and that they would have the Spirit.

This theme is all through the Bible: that God's people would ALL have the Spirit. Joel's prophecy is a promise from God to bring about what Moses said. Which means Pentecost is the answer as it were to Moses' expressed desire.

A few points:

1. The sign of a prophet was prophesying, ie speaking as the Spirit directs. The 70 elders and Saul, the "prophets" in Samuel's day, etc all prophesied when the Spirit came upon them and moved upon them. Joel said all who receive the Spirit's outpouring would "prophesy". On Pentecost, they all spoke with tongues. Peter identified the speaking with tongues as the "prophesying" mentioned in Joel. Not only does this indicate speaking with tongues is a universal normative "initial evidence" of receiving the Spirit, but also strongly suggests that speaking with tongues was a normative evidence of Spirit operation even in the Old Testament (called "prophesying" in the several passages that have been referenced by both of us).

2. Righteousness at it's root is conformity to moral law. Since God expects everyone to conform to moral law, it necessarily follows that everyone is capable of conforming to moral law. Lack of conformity to moral law is "sin". So it follows everyone who is a moral agent and accountable to God is ABLE to not sin and do what's right. The problem of course is not everyone is WILLING. The role of the Spirit is thus to woo and motivate people, to make them willing, to obey God. Moreover, yielding to sin leads to bondage or enslavement to sin. The Spirit provides power to escape that bondage (Romans 6-8). So people in the OT certainly could be righteous, and it certainly was a result of the Spirit working on their heart.

3. But that is a wider application of the Spirit than the existence of "prophets" in the OT. While anyone could yield to the motivating power of God's Spirit to do the right, not everyone was a prophet or had direct supernatural intervention by the Spirit.

4. Nobody under the Old Covenant had a PROMISE of being a prophet (that is, a promise of having the Spirit come upon them in demonstrable power and direct influence and guidance). That was reserved for the New Covenant. In that respect the New Covenant is incredibly superior. The New Covenant makes available to all of God's people what Moses wished for, which was previously only available to a select few.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

An interesting question. Essentially, how could an old testament saint even be a "saint", and expect resurrection, if only those filled with the Spirit can be saints and expect resurrection? It would mean nobody prior to Pentecost will be resurrected to life except maybe the prophets.

But Paul makes an interesting statement:

Galatians 4:4-6 KJV
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, [5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. [6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

God sent His Spirit into their hearts BECAUSE they were sons. The sonship is given as the ground, cause, or reason for them receiving the Spirit. This is 180 degrees opposite to most modern Pentecostal belief. So what is going on here?

Romans 8:14 KJV
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Those who are LED by the Spirit are judicially classified by God as sons. In other words, a person who is yielding to the influence of God's Spirit is classified as a child of God. God's Spirit led the Galatians to believe in Christ and receive the Spirit. Thus they received the Spirit because they were children of God.

Jesus put it this way:
John 14:16-17 KJV
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The world cannot receive the Spirit. Only those not of the world, but of the kingdom, can. The disciples were children of God and not of the world prior to Pentecost:

Luke 11:11-13 KJV
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? [12] Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? [13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

God was their Father, and would give them the Spirit.

John 15:18-19 KJV
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. [19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

They were not of the world.

Misunderstanding these things has caused many to suppose the Spirit is given to a person BEFORE they "receive the Spirit". Such persons say "You have to already have the Spirit in order to be baptised with the Spirit", but harmonizing the Scripture shows that the prerequisite to receiving the Spirit is to be LED by the Spirit to an obedient faith in Christ. Being led classifies a person as a son of God eligible to receive the Spirit. What is first judicially established is then ratified and manifested in personal experience.

Adoption leads to birth, in a sense.

Getting back to the question of the old testament saints: if they were led by the Spirit, they are legally classed as children of God. Thus, only those in the Covenant who also served God from the heart will obtain the resurrection unto life. Mere physical circumcision isn't enough, as John explained:

Matthew 3:7-9 KJV
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: [9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

The OT provided executions etc, for those that disobeyed the Law. This is opposite of NT Holy Ghost doctrine. They were flawed from the start with a big hammer hanging over their heads. The Law of the Spirit is a new thing. However, all mankind from whatever covenant they come from are saved by faith.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

:highfive

Regarding point 2:

Look at this passage about exactly that topic of being slaved to sin:

Jeremiah 13:23 (KJV) 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Regarding the Spirit guidance:

Galatians 5:16 (KJV) 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Then, the result of it is:

Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"Walking in" refers to living according to the instructions or guidance of, e.g.
Leviticus 26:3 (KJV) 3 If ye walk in my statutes
Deuteronomy 8:6 (KJV) 6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
1 Kings 3:14 (KJV) 14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

As you see, "walking in" is associated with keeping his word (obeying them).

Abraham:
Genesis 26:5 (KJV) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Jesus to his disciples:
John 14:23-26 (KJV) 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That's what I think that the "walk in the Spirit" comes down to living according to the instructions and guidance of the Spirit, which comes down to keeping the Word in our heart and doing it, and the Spirit helps you comprehend it, and it also convicts you, and gives testimony to our spirit by revealing things, and uses others to teach you and rebuke you and correct you.

You are right. In theory, people are capable of doing good always, and they have knowledge of good and evil. In practice, they have already been slaved of sin long ago as they come into this world and learn to discern good and evil and choose evil. They yield to the temptation of the flesh and the devil.
Those that have turned to God, have the Spirit convicting them, rebuking them, correcting them, instructing them. Those that hear and do, are walking in the Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(KJV) 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, (I love this one)

Point 4 is a great point.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

:yourock

Excellent points. This is a good thread. :thumbsup

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

The law was a tutor to Christ, and shows us the deserved punishment for sin. The Spirit was preparing people for the coming of the Christ.

The righteousness of the Law is still something we should pursue after repentance.

Paul speaking, the same one that said we are under the law of the Spirit as you said:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus himself teaching those that heard his preaching of the Kingdom of God being at hand (pay attention to the last verse):
Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

What do you think about John 7:38-39? Did you see my interpretation of the "rivers of living waters" in post #32?

Re: The OT saints apparent disadvantage
 

You got me thinking.

Related verses:

John 11:52 (KJV) 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


What about this:

[Jhn 1:12-13 NKJV] 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

being born of God here is just then a metaphor of those that respond to the lead of the Spirit?

I'm thinking of this as well:

[Jhn 6:45 NKJV] 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.