“God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Does God only want volunteer giving? Jesus' ministry is only about volunteers. Even though Jesus hand picked His group He took them out of their vocations. Telling them that once they use to fish for fish, but now their real vocation is about catching men. They were told that any house they entered into they were to wish peace upon that home. Anything that was set before them, they were to partake in that meal. They were to bring no supplies, no money, yet they would be taken care of and not by asking for it. They were like the children of Israel leaving Egypt. So in that way they would allow God to provide. Not extorting money, like Simon the Sorcerer. Healing and delivering people for a payment. But doing everything without asking for anything in return.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

You know you are starting a fire, right? :lol

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I don’t understand why this subject would start a fire?

The moment someone mentions tithing 10% to their Pastor or ministry on a weekly or monthly basis, you’ll have immediate kickback.

Well lets talk about volunteer giving, lets talk abut the resources that God has blessed us with. Not just ministry, preachers, everyone!

Do we keep the resources God has blessed us with and use it for our personal gain? Shouldnt we be giving to the poor outside the church walls. Using the resources to help feed the hungry (spiritually and naturally)?

The bible mentions

Matthew 6:31-32
[31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? [32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Take No thought our your needs, Jesus said the gentiles do that. Are we suppose to be living with the mindset that God will provide for us?

Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Seeking first the kingdom, is pretty hard to do, when you’re working 40-60 hours a week for some wordly boss. And your prayer life is maybe 5 hours a week.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

If “God only wants voluntary giving”, I’m afraid that He is severely disappointed. When it comes to tithing there is no opportunity for voluntary giving in most Apostolic churches. Pastors go right into coercion and extortion mode. It is your money or your (spiritual) life. Many pastors do not even classify tithing as giving at all. According to them you would be RETURNING the money to God. They totally disregard the FACT that God established what tithing should be, under the Mosaic law. And He did not allow money to be tithed, under that same law. And they had money, they just didn’t tithe money.

As far as voluntary giving, most preachers will exhort the congregation to “give as unto the Lord” when it comes time to take an offering, or tithes. But they normally avoid preaching from Matthew 25, where Jesus teaches how to give exactly like you were giving to Him.

Why? I think it’s because they don’t want you giving to other causes until they get their “share”. It called being selfish. And to call most giving voluntary would be a stretch.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Because tithing money, (once again) is not scriptural. Please quote ANY scripture saying otherwise.

Brother, have you been asleep? This is what I’ve been talking about! You responded to my post in “Who is Harry Morse” didn’t you?

Once again. This is what voluntary giving as unto the Lord looks like as described and endorsed, even taught by Jesus Christ.

[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[QUOTE=Nicodemus1968;1605311]
Do we keep the resources God has blessed us with and use it for our personal gain? Shouldnt we be giving to the poor outside the church walls. Using the resources to help feed the hungry (spiritually and naturally)?
It’s very plain. It’s easy to do. Don’t make it more difficult than it is. Just follow the directions. Don’t add to it or take away from it. Don’t ignore it. Teach it, preach it and do it.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I have the feeling EB, smartly, created this thread to just get us out of Scott's one :heeheehee

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I was talking to my wife recently. I told her that we cannot snatch and grab blessings and curses from scrioture and assemble them in whatever configuration we wish like a Biblical Mr. PotatoHead.


If we live by the law and err in one thing we err in it all.


So if we want to preach old testament tithing, fine...but Malachi 3:8 speaks of God being robbed in tithes AND offerings.


You can't use that scripture to establish only one type of giving established.


We have to give WHAT they gave, HOW MUCH they gave, WHEN they gave,WHO it was given to and WHERE it was given.


If you violate those directives you violate Malachi 3:8.


Again, if you can pick and choose then whats to stop us from cutting out and disregarding any other scripture that doesnt suit our fancy?


That is an extremely dangerous precident to set...


If we use the patriarchs to establish the tithe principle then I by rights of the example the patriarchs set can decide to make a conditional tithe where I say "IF you will bless me" as did Jacob.


Also, covering tithing I am allowed to convert one kind of tithe to money*which means #1 that particular tithe wasnt initially money but something else and money was a secondary form only if certain conditions were not able to be met* but #2 I can take that tithe I have redeemed for money and purchase strong drink.


The New Testament specifically says that people are are to give without threat of compulsion what they have decided in their hearts for God loves a CHEERFUL giver...which lets me know that the Bible is acknowledging that its hard to be cheerful about giving when you are forced and threatened.


Now if Im being compelled, I am not allowed to give under my own free will voluntarily which takes an opportunity to be blessed out of the equation since Im driven by a requirement instead of being led by the Spirit.


Why do you think Jesus told a non Spirit filled man who had kept the entireity of the law to sell all his goods and give to the poor?


There is NO such command in the law of Moses...Christ was speaking of something the man had yet to experience....the leading of the Spirit which prompts giving more liberally than the law ever required.


You think it was just an accident that the early church were on a sell all their goods and give everything spree?


What motivated them to do so?


The law or the Spirit?


Preachers are literally shutting heaven from supplying their needs by riding the brakes on their peoples giving.


RELEASE your people to be led of the Spirit and see what happens!


The only problem is that its been such a ingrained tradition people are gonna stare at that liberty like a cow at a new gate.


Its ironic that people are told "give and God will bless" expecting us to trust God but we have ministry that cant trust God to move upon people to give freely.


Its like having grandmothers, aunts etc that demand a hug everytime you enter the room, the preempt you not even giving you a chance to show any affection willingly on your own accord...it begins to develop resentment against showing love in that way when it would develop much greater feelings of affection had you been allowed to do it on your own decision and it would be more rewarding for them getting to receive love freely given instead of demanded.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Maybe . . .

It a control issue.

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:nod

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Good job E.B.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I would like to attempt to cover an area of giving that doesn’t normally get any attention. It is routinely overlooked in the Apostolic church. That is the reality that if we give something, that someone receives (benefits from) that giving.

I know that it is often the pastor but it should be many others. I believe that the standard message on giving implies that ALL Christians should give. You don’t typically hear that some Christians should receive, but the reality is that even Christians fall on hard times. I realize that this in not a popular message in the days of prosperity gospel but it’s true.

The prosperity gospel tends to make people ashamed of having needs. But when you look at the early church, there were people who had needs. When we pretend that they are less than righteous because it fits our narrative on giving, we do them and the church as a whole, disservice. It is a reckless doctrine IMHO.

Often on giving, the subject of the church selling what they had and putting the money at the apostles feet comes up. This is a scriptural example of early church giving, but the scripture doesn’t stop there. It says who received the resources. Allow me to cut and paste.

Acts 4

[32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
[33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
[34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
[35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

You see, even in the early church where people were on fire for God and revival was going on, people were in need. It is often overlooked that the money was distributed to every man that had need. I have seen many times where the preacher who covered this passage would merely stop after the part where the money was laid at the apostles feet, implying that it was for them. It was not for them, UNLESS THEY WERE IN NEED!

So I think it’s important to complete the full circle of the giving doctrine. The scripture does. We often do not. We often are told that once we give, it’s none of our business what happens to the gift. It is simply and scripturally not true. For every gift, there is someone or something that receives and benefits from that gift. Giving is a gift of the Spirit. They who truly have this gift, in my experience also are diligent in stewardship. They go together.

I have too often heard that if someone is experiencing financial difficulties, it is caused by their lack of giving. This is often completely unfounded. Sometimes financial difficulties are very temporary. Other times they are a lifestyle.

The widow who gave her mites was obviously generous. She also had nothing more. Aaaand she was a widow. So, in spite of her generosity we never hear of her becoming independently wealthy or that she married her Prince Charming.

Giving is important. It is not for all Christians at all times. There are benefits to being in financial hardship. It can be humbling. And it can, if approached correctly, be an opportunity for the ones who have more to share with they who have need. It is a demonstration of brotherly love.

Aaaand it is absolutely scriptural!

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

One can not give what is not theirs and all that you have is God’s.

Instead of worrying about giving and tithing, simply be a good steward of that which is God’s.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

We all should be concerned about false doctrines, especially the ones that do coercion on giving to be able to participate in the congregation in different ministries. How it comes that false doctrines are always about getting greater access to power, sex or money?

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Thank you Ram Dass :heeheehee

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Flypaper?

Lol

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I wouldn’t say its easy to do.

We talk about giving, and its all just stuff weather it be money, food, clothing, etc. Yet, it really comes down to our life, our desires, our dreams have to be submitted to him (Jesus).

Moses saw great things, the exodus from Egypt, the Red Sea divided, the earth open, the Hinder parts of God. And through all that he never prayed anything for himself. He had a faith that all he needed was going to be supplied by his master. Someone talks about God doing that for them, and they’re ridiculed, they’re mocked. We have an America mentality that its every man for himself, work, work, work to provide for your family. Never allowing God to provide for you and your family.

We’re so concerned with the news and whats going around, the only things the prophets, apostles, disciples were concderned about was Gods work. Where the Spirit lead them, not the ways of the world.

Luke 12:16-21
[16] And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
[17] And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
[18] And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
[19] And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
[20] But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
[21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Indeed!

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Amen....Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Just as a reminder, this passage is concerning helping the poor saints of Jerusalem. It was not for the “ministry” only. Helping the poor has much greater New Testament scriptural support than giving to pastors does. After all, aren’t we all supposed to be in the ministry?

There are entire conferences held that are exclusively for the ministry. There is no greater division in the church than the one between the pulpit and the pew.

1Cor.3

[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1Cor.1

[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Paul discouraged any division in the church. He was of the opinion that different saints had different gifts. Some gifts were more desirable than others but the people that had the gifts were not exalted above others. Doing so was a sign of carnality.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Each man according to his ability. Each man according to his need.

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Did anyone read Bartleman's entire quote, or did a bunch of you just see the word "giving" and decide to go on a diatribe, not even realizing the dude didn't say a word about money or tithing? Talk about tilting at windmills...

Read it again:

JUST WHAT IS A REAL CHRISTIAN?
God wants only volunteer giving. We do not have to give. Giving la a privilege not of compulsion. We are the losers or gainers for eternity. There is a great recompense of reward. All we keep we lose. All give to God we keep. Nothing goes beyond the grave but the good we have done. This then should be the passion of our lives to live for others. An unselfish life is the only one that pays. All that is spent On self is lost. It perishes with the using. Souls are the only thing of real value. The only thing worthwhile is the opportunity of doing good today. Tomorrow even that is gone. In Eternity’s light we will despise the selfishness that caused us to miss it. Let us seek to help others toward heaven today. The man who lives not in the fight of eternity lives not at all. We can go to heaven a pauper and beggar if we will. Rewards are for sacrifice only not for selfish living. If we believe a hand shake, a kind word, or a needed gift may make the difference of heaven or hell for eternity for a soul how dare we withhold it? It will help them toward heaven Oh the poverty of a life lived for self! The only thing of value in the fight of eternity is the good deed done. Things withheld are lost forever But the future life is far too problematic with us. We believe only in the present material one that we can see Our five senses are our heaven.

Only those who like their Master are living wholly for God and others are real Christian. Like Jesus they are seeing how much they can give. He put His life into it. Only those who sacrifice will have reward. Seeking selfish blessings brings no reward. To follow Christ is not to see how much we can give without thought of getting. Such unselfish living gets the most. Let us give of our influence. We will receive fullness of joy for using our influence for souls. This a wonderful privilege and responsibility in living.

All the energy of the human race to live without God has been lost in all time spent in vain only to gain death and hell. A million dollars if secured could not add one hair’s weight to the life or joy of the soul. It could only feed and satisfy the animal man like the home or cow to perish with the using. Someone has said “God judges of what we give now by how much we give but rather by how much we keep for ourselves” Instance the “widow’s mite”. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful for he was very rich”. We are living our fives now. Let us do good today now before the opportunity is gone. If we really “seek first the Kingdom of God”. He will not fail us.

We shall receive reward for good or evil at compound interest. And who is able to compute it. It can be reckoned only at the final judgment. How careful we should be not to miss the opportunity for doing good. The fives we Influence today for right or wrong will touch other lives tomorrow with an influence that we can never recall. It Is like the waves of radio passing out into the other. Only its waves go on Into the lives of millions we cannot avoid it. Every life has this influence, this responsibility, and account to give this reward for good or evil which it cannot escape whether it wishes it or not. It is the price tor living of existence— Frank Bartleman (1929)

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

What concord hath Marx with Christ?

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

The quote doesn’t say anything about tithing, I knew that. My first response to the quote was basically “I have never seen a preacher preach about giving with a lot of persuasion and all of that that is not about giving to themselves”.

I have heard many preachings like that, saying “All it matters in your life is how much you gave”, which is commendable, and good, however, when you look at the intentions of the speakers, they are saying all those wonderful words to persuade to give abundantly to “ministry” which comes down to them.

Jesus taught like that as well, but it was mainly about giving as an act of mercy and hospitality for your brethren.

It reminds me the Pharisees: so good at giving to ministry with their tithing, so bad at giving to the brethren in need

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Where was it posted?

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

In the Harry Morse thread

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Amen

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Tithesmeister,

I understand there are some pastors that make tithing an heaven and hell issue. Yet, I believe a high majority in the church want to give, they're not forced at all. I firmly believe the last thing on their mind when they put that check in the envelope is, "whew, I'm not going to hell!" Saints love to give, not just money, but their time.

I guarantee some of the pastors you have mentioned in threads of the past, if the pastors stood up and denounced everything they said about "tithe or the burning flame." The people will still give, not out of fear, or because they have been "brainwashed", but because they love to give and support the church. Weather that be, the leadership, the building, the programs, etc..

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Members are not forced to tithe, they are coerced to tithe. Tithe is a requirement to participate in ministry. Let's be honest please.

Also, they are threatened, directly, or indirectly, by the quoting of Mal 3:8-9. They are told, openly, or indirectly by reading that reference, that they are robbing God, and will be cursed with a cursed. Let's be honest, please.

They are not forced, they are coerced in different fronts.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

I agree, and understand what you're saying. Yet, truly at the heart of the matter is, people give because they're giving people. Like I posted, if the pastors denounced everything they have said, the high majority of people would still give.

Re: “God wants ONLY volunteer giving”
 

Modern tithing doctrine and giving are different things. People can be giving and give less than the tithe, or also more if they have ability.

Ministry is locked up to those that are financially able to tithe, and excluded to the very poor, and even worse, with a guilt of doing wrong.

We are having this discussion because US is not in a economic crisis like the 1930, otherwise, all of this "my uncle is poor and always tithed" would go out of the window. The current US poor is rich in a depressed economy.

However, one day, all of this falsehood of tithe will come down by a strike of God, and many will open their eyes, many will suffer loses, and those that persist in preaching the falsehood will suffer, and those that repent will find mercy.

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Of all the issues on the docket, THIS matter is the one that is bringing judgment.
:lol

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I wasn't even talking about "judgment".

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The heart behind the giving is just as important, if not more so, than the gift. Many times, people cannot afford to "pay tithes" because of differing situations, including heavy medical expenses. But, such as we have, we give, and cheerfully so. Sometimes it is not even money, but time and ability to serve the Kingdom. May our hearts be right so that our giving be accepted by Jesus.

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I had a pastor that preached that people had to pay tithes on food stamps.

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It was Tithemeister disguised as a pastor. 😂