What's your view on Hell?
 

Share your view on hell please.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

No

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Don't be scared

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

:highfive

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

This is my view:

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...ad.php?t=54459

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Is there a hell?

I know a person told me once there life is a living hell.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Those who are born again have everlasting life, those who are not perish.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Heaven and hell are opposites and both are real. Judgement is what separates the two.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

I know a preacher that preaches that: there is no hell, but it is your life in this planet.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Here is a passage from Psalms 18 that seems to be David saying his life is a living hell.

[5] The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Annihilation?

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

In light of John 3:16, does one perish in hell?

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Judeans had no concept of an immortal soul being eternally tormented until hellenization during the second temple period after the conquest of Alexander.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Not these folks.... 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

It’s like this;


[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Parables are teaching tools, not literal.
Once dead you're dead until Rev 20 when the just are resurrected to eternal life and the unjust are resurrected to judgement and destruction.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

But wait, there is more:
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. - Luk 16:25-31 KJV


What if there is no hell and Jesus was just telling the story of the rich man many many years later after he died, already in the eternal judgment? like transporting us to the day he wakes up from his Sheol after the eternal judgment has taken place.

Let's look at some facts from the story:

The rich man died.
The rich man had relatives.
The rich man was aware his relatives were in another place, unaware, while he was tormented, at the same time.
The rich man's relatives had Moses' writings available.
The rich man thinks that the only way somebody can communicate with his relatives is if somebody rises from the dead and talk to them.

Therefore, we can see two different conditions: the rich man who died but it is aware of the condition of the relatives, and the relatives who have no clue (or don't believe) of that tormenting place, and have available to them Moses' writings, and can be communicated with if somebody rises from the dead, and therefore, we can imply that the relatives are not dead, but instead they are in the land of the living.

So, how can these two human conditions can be true at the same time, if there is not a real Hades? On one hand, we have somebody tormented unable to communicate with his relatives, and at the same time, on the other hand, relatives unaware of the situation, that are alive.

Jesus cannot be describing a transportation in time to the eternal judgment, because then the relatives would be also in the same condition, making Jesus's story a contradiction. Unless, of course, one believes that the eternal judgment is not really an event for the entirety of humanity at once, but an ongoing thing which allows for people being already resurrected, and eternally judged, and thrown into the lake of fire, while others are in the land of the living unaware. That would then take us to another discussion.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Brother,

I’m confused. I’ve read your post twice and it’s not making sense to me. In response to your “what if there is no hell” question. If there is no hell, how is the rich man “in hell being in torment”? If there is no hell, how is he in hell?

Is it me? Please explain.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Simple:

Do whatever the Father commands you to do so that you avoid it at all costs.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: And with all thy getting get understanding.
Proverbs 4:7 KJV

https://bible.com/bible/1/pro.4.7.KJV

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

As a young man I questioned the fact of burning in a flame of fire for all eternity. I believe hell or a sinners punishment will be eternally separated from the spirit of God.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

I have a question, how often in a parable does Jesus use names?

Luke 15:11 KJV
[11] And he said, A certain man had two sons:

No specific name given

Matthew 13:3 KJV
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Again, no specific name.

Yet in the “parable” in question he (Jesus) mentions Abraham and Lazarus. Is Lazarus the one whom Jesus raised from the dead???

Maybe TJJJ could shine a light on this “parable”.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Lol, I wasn't actually replying to you with the second part of the post. I was just making the point that there is more important content in the rest of that passage, and then I went on to show a wrong possible interpretation about that story. Just a thought that came to my mind last night while I was half asleep :lol

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

:thumbsup

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

From another thread:

Having looked at repentance and faith, as understood in the New Covenant Christian context of instruction concerning washings and laying on of hands (which have to do with cleansing and justification), let's look at the final two fundamental principles of the word of Christ: resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

The Bible (specifically the Old Testament scriptures) do not describe an "afterlife" as commonly believed by most people. Nowhere do the "oracles of God" (the apostolic term for the OT Bible) teach that dead people continue in a conscious, disembodied state after death. In fact, the Scriptures which speak directly to the subject tell a very different story, that the dead do not have consciousness and are not active. Death is spoken of as "sleep", because the person is inactive and unaware. It is not the body which is said to sleep, but the person. This is a key point to remember.

Ecclesiastes ch 9

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

This is a clear, unambiguous, straightforward description of the "after death state". The dead know nothing, their emotions and desires and passions cease to exist, they have nothing to do with anything going on in this life. In death, in the grave, activity ceases, plans cease, knowledge and wisdom cease. There is, in other words, no consciousness, no perception, and no activity.

Yet, the same author pointed out everyone would give account to God:

Ecclesiastes ch 12

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Everyone ought to obey God because God will judge every deed. This requires resurrection, since no activity occurs in the grave (except the dustifying of the body). Since this judgment does not befall all men in this life, it must occur at a future event. And since judgment implies conviction and testimony, it must occur outside of the grave. And that requires people to be out of the grave at judgment.

Jesus correctly refuted the Sadducees and their error of not believing in a resurrection of the dead, when He pointed out that the Law states Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Since God is not God of the dead (since the dead know nothing nor do they do anything, including worship - Psalm 115:17), but God of the living, it necessarily follows that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must come out of the grave and live yet again. Jesus' answer to the Sadducees presupposes that the dead are unconscious and not engaged in any activity including that of worship, thereby affirming the truth of resurrection.



That the dead would live again is expressed succinctly in Job, considered the oldest text in the Bible:

Job 19

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job had an expectation that, even though the worms destroyed his body, even though his internal viscera (organs) were consumed, that is to say, even though his body decayed in the grave, yet he would one day see God, with his eyes. He asserts that in his flesh he would see God, whom he said would stand upon the earth in the latter day. This is a clear statement of an expectation of a future, bodily, physical resurrection. That even though the body rotted in the earth and returned to dust, yet somehow in his flesh he would stand before God. This can only be possible if there was to be a resurrection of the dead, that included a resurrection of the body.

Psalm 16

8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David affirmed that his flesh would rest in hope. That is, his flesh body was not doomed to eternal destruction because of death. There was hope, not just for David's soul, but for his very flesh. The reason? Because he was confident that his soul would not remain in hell (Hades, or Sheol, that is, the grave). The soul would come out of the grave, and THIS is said to be the cause for his flesh resting in hope. In other words, the flesh was expected to live again precisely because the soul would not remain in the grave. The soul coming out of the grave is what would free the flesh from death. Or in other words, the flesh would rise when the soul came out of the grave.

What is the soul? Generally speaking, it is whole person:

Genesis 2

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The person is a living soul. It is a living soul because animating spirit has been joined to flesh. At death, the spirit departs from the flesh, and the person is no longer a living soul.

At resurrection, spirit and flesh are joined together once again, and the individual lives again, has consciousness, perception, can do things once more, activity resumes. This is another reason death is Biblically identified as "sleep", because of the resurrection. As a man lays down and goes unconscious, ceasing activity, in sleep, yet rises in the morning, awakened and conscious, so the person lies down in death, unconscious and inactive, until rising and awakening once more in resurrection.



The key here is to understand resurrection in a Christ-centered, New Covenant sense. Jesus is the life and resurrection, because He is the very life of God manifested in human nature. He is the firstborn from the dead, that is to say, He is the first person to experience the promised, looked forward to resurrection. Others had previously been restored to life, but those were resuscitations, not full blown resurrections. The idea expressed in the psalm, quoted earlier, is that once brought out of Hades, there is no expectation of ever going back. That is, death itself is defeated and the saint has no more to look forward to going back to the grave. The apostles understood the words of the psalm as a prophecy concerning Christ's resurrection. They also taught that as Christ is the new Adam (the new representative Head of mankind), all those in Christ would experience what He Himself experienced - resurrection into immortal life.

The wicked, however, have something different to look forward to, which we'll explore in the next post, as we look at the subject of eternal judgment.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Psalm 37

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. 2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. 3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. 4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. 5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. 6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. 14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. 15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. 16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. 17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. 18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The psalm speaks of the future of the wicked, that they will be no more, and will perish, and consume away. They will not be found. This takes place at the judgment, because even though wicked people die in this life, one can always find more wicked men still among the living. But a day is coming in which every deed of every person will be judged, and the wicked will be destroyed and "be no more".

Ecclesiastes showed that judgment must take place outside of the grave, and therefore there must be a resurrection. The resurrection thus is necessary for the judgment. The saints, in Christ, will be found in righteousness because they are in Him, who is Himself their righteousness. They will experience a resurrection into life. The wicked will also rise from the grave, and will be judged as well. But not being found in Christ, they will be judged for their wickedness, and will perish.

Thus, there is a resurrection to life, and a resurrection to damnation. The wicked will not live forever, but will be "consumed like fat" burning away into smoke. That is, they will be destroyed and there will simply be no more wicked.

Jesus affirmed this in that most famous verse, John 3:16, when He said the believers "should not perish, but have everlasting life." The unbelievers would "perish", that is, they would be consumed and would be no more.

He also affirmed the dual resurrection in John ch 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It should be noted that those who will participate in either the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of damnation, are those who are in the graves. They themselves are said to be in the graves when this happens, not just those " whose bodies" are in the graves.

Isaiah also speaks of the fate of the wicked:

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; 16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. 17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

The prophet asks, "Who shall dwell with the devouring fire, and everlasting burnings?" Many people believe the wicked will dwell or live forever with the devouring fire and everlasting burnings in hell. But the Scripture says explicitly it is the righteous who shall dwell with the devouring fire and everlasting burnings! How can this be?

It is because the righteous shall live forever, whereas the wicked shall be consumed (burnt up) and will be no more. The devouring fire is the consuming fire, which is GOD HIMSELF:

Deuteronomy 4

24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Hebrews 12

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God Himself is the consuming fire who, in His judgment, destroys the wicked. The righteous, however, live forever with Him. This is illustrated in symbolic form in the Revelation:

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell (Hades, the grave) delivered up the dead who were then judged. This means people coming back to life, out of the grave, resurrection. Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire, which is the SECOND death. And those not in the Book of Life are likewise cast unto the lake of fire.

Death and Hades, the grave, are abolished and death is destroyed, to be no more. As are the wicked. It is called the "second death" because it is a death that occurs after judgment. The second death has no power over the saints (Rev 20:6), that is, the fire cannot harm them, they are not appointed to destruction. They have eternal life, and shall live forever with God. But the wicked do not have eternal life, they are utterly destroyed by the righteous and holy judgment of God.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Exactly Brother Esaias!

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Lazarus in the parable is Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother. (Very likely he is also known as Simon the leper.)

The rich man is the high priest Caiaphas, who had five brothers-in-law who also previously served as priests.

None of them would get right with God even if Lazarus rose from the dead. When Lazarus did in fact rise from the dead, Caiaphas and the "chief priests" sought to have him (Lazarus) killed to stop the spread of his testimony, which was causing people to flock to Jesus.

...

I believe the two Lazaruses are the same person, the connection to coming back from the dead, the rich man's brothers not believing even if Lazarus came back from the dead, and the historical events concerning Lazarus coming back from the dead and the rulers, priests, etc still not believing and getting right with God... it all fits.

Plus, there is a strong indication Simon the Leper was an epithet (other name) for Lazarus, and Lazarus in the story was a leper as well.

On the other hand, if this is a literal account of historical events, it creates insurmountable contradictions with the rest of Scripture, especially those areas of the Bible containing plain, unambiguous doctrinal teaching. Additionally, everyone who says it is a literal history don't actually take it that way, they do not believe in sitting in Abraham's lap literally, or literal flames, literal communication between the tormented and the refreshed, literal physical body parts (eyes, tongue, finger, etc), physical chasms, etc etc etc. So, even though people often claim it is a literal historical account, they turn right around and deny its literalness!

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

:highfive

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Thanks Brother Esaias,

In regard to what Nicodemus said, that it wasn’t normal for Jesus to be specific (naming names) in parables. Do you believe that Jesus was rebuking Caiaphas because of His mistreatment of Lazarus?

I think it is earlier in Matthew that Jesus told his disciples (when He was referring to the leaven of the Pharisees) that He would from now on speak in parables when the Pharisees were listening. A sort of code speak if you will. However, as Nicodemus points out, there is a lot of detail in this parable that is normally not present. Maybe it was personal for Jesus?

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Regarding the use of a personal name in a parable: there is no rule that says one cannot use a personal name in a parable. Also, the fact Lazarus was resurrected shortly afterwards strongly indicates the parable was meant to be a timely even prophetic lesson about the realities surrounding the religious authorities of the day.

But more importantly, nobody who asserts this was a literal history actually believes it:


"...they do not believe in sitting in Abraham's lap literally, or literal flames, literal communication between the tormented and the refreshed, literal physical body parts (eyes, tongue, finger, etc), physical chasms, etc etc etc. So, even though people often claim it is a literal historical account, they turn right around and deny its literalness!"

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

You have good points.

A few things,

* The "devouring fire" or "everlasting fire" is not referring to the lake of fire, but in your reasoning you are connecting them. Who can live with the everlasting fire? asks the sinners in Zion and the godless ones (see the sentences right before in that verse). This is definitely poetry in the prophecy. If that refers to the lake of fire then you say the righteous, the one that can, is going to be walking around in the lake of fire without getting consumed? Isn't the just going to be in peace in the presence of God? The righteous do not dwell in the lake of fire. Those descriptions are definitely referring to God himself, but as the Mighty Judge pouring his wrath on the land of Zion.


* Regarding Lazarus, if I understand correctly, you are saying the story of Lazarus told by Jesus was not real to life. Can you show another parable of Jesus that is based on elements that are not real to life? It would be such an uncommon thing.

* "sleep" describing the dead could be simply an euphemism, and not a theological concept. The Bible writers used euphemisms.

John 11:11-14 (NKJV) 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up."
12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.

Could you please also explain these verses:

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Matthew 10:28 (NKJV) 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Lazarus in the Hebrew means Eleazar.

Eleazar was the steward of Abrahams house.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

The sinners are afraid and ask "Who will dwell with everlasting burnings?" The very next series of statements give the answer: the righteous. Thus, the righteous are the ones who will dwell in the devouring (consuming) fire. Our God is a consuming fire. Thus, it is the righteous who will dwell (abide, continue, live) in and with the consuming fire who is God. The sinners of course will not. They are not listed as being able to dwell in the fire. God is a consuming fire. What does He consume? Sin, wickedness, the unrighteous. They perish and will not be able to abide. Only the righteous will.

The "lake of fire" is a symbol in a vision. It represents the destruction of the wicked by God. Being cast into the lake of burning sulphur is symbolic of being destroyed by God. The righteous are not imperilled by that judgment. They are safe with God.


Not sure what you mean by "not real to life"? A parable is by definition a fictitious story meant to illustrate one or more concepts. If you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a description of actual events that actually happened, then you believe righteous dead people actually go and sit in Abraham's lap, have tongues, can see the wicked who suffer from actual thirst, can talk to the wicked while they suffer, have actual bodies other than the bodies they have in the grave (at the same time!), etc. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is either utterly inconsistent with both reason and the rest of Scripture, not to mention it is inconsistent with the beliefs of those who try to use the story to support their belief in a conscious intermediate state, OR it is a parable meant to illustrate certain concepts. It uses themes common to Pharisee belief about the afterlife and the intermediate state to make a counterpoint to the standard Pharisee assumption about who they were and where they were going.

It is a metaphor, not a euphemism. The metaphor is used because of the similiarities between physical death and sleeping. It is theological because theology is the study of God's word, and God's word uses the term sleep to communicate truth about death. If we use God's terms, we will be more likely to grasp the truths He is trying to communicate.


I believe I already had explained this verse in a previous conversation with you:

It's a vision. Are the souls literally stuck underneath a literal altar? During a sacrifice the blood of the animal was poured out at the base of the altar. These martyrs gave themselves as willing sacrifices if you will for the gospel. Abel's blood "cried out to God" in Genesis when he was murdered. Was literal blood vocally screaming from the ground? No, rather his death demanded justice and God was aware of it. The life (soul) is in the blood. So the souls under the altar represent the martyrs' deaths for God demanding justice, and God is fully aware of it and in due time will avenge them.
(see http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...4&postcount=99 )

If the body is killed, you will rise again. But if God destroys both body and soul in the lake of fire, there is no coming back.

Man can only kill the body, but cannot deprive anyone of eternal life. God however can kill permanently, for ever.

Interestingly, God is said to destroy BOTH body and soul in hell. Thus, the truth of a physical resurrection as well as the truth that nobody is destroyed in hell until judgment day are established.

The body is the physical body, the soul is the life, the person, the whole human entity. The person (soul) will live again no matter what man does to the body. But no soul will live if God destroys the person in the second death.

Just move the comma over one word, from before "today" to after "today". The commas after all are not inspired but added by translators.

But let us leave the comma there anyway. That very day the thief would be with Jesus in "paradise" (the Greek term for Eden, in fact). How would that be possible since Jesus would not rise from the dead that day? How can Jesus effect salvation without rising from the dead? Paul says if Jesus is not raised then our faith is in vain, we have no hope. So the salvation and redemption was not completed until not only had Jesus died, but had also rose again from the dead. Moreover, where was Jesus that day? In heaven? In Abraham's lap? Or on a cross? And then taken down and put into a grave?

Where is Paradise? In heaven? some 50 days after Jesus said that to the thief, Peter said this:

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(Act 2:31-35)

Notice, 50 days after the cross, Peter affirms that David "is not ascended into the heavens". And this is in connection with the soul not being left in hell. So 50 days after the cross David is still not in heaven, yet the thief is? The only human to ascend into the heavens is Jesus Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection.

So what is Jesus saying here? What is in Paradise (Eden)? The Tree of Life. Jesus was hanging on a "tree" (the cross), pouring out His blood to give life to all who would believe. The cross is the real Tree of Life. The thief was there with Jesus while He was dying, and as He died. The thief was in the very presence of the genuine Tree of Life. That is to say, in the real true Paradise of God.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

The Pharisees claimed to be Abraham's heirs. But they were going to lose out and be replaced by a class of people whom they believed to be under a curse and cut off from God. In their view, they themselves represent Isaac and Eleazar/Lazarus (Abraham's servant) would represent the heathen and "this people which know not the law".

But in reality, just as in the parable, Eleazar/Lazarus gets to recline with Abraham while the wealthy "heir" suffers by being cut off and kept out.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

"Real to life" means that the stories in the parable are obviously fiction but the things, persons, and places inside the story are elements extracted from real life: e.g., you don't see Jesus using animals talking in parables, because that's not a thing in real life, you don't see Jesus using trees dancing, or people flying to stars, for the same reason.
Jesus's stories never had things, persons or places, or theological truths that were not from real life. If Hades had not been a real life element, with a separation between the just and the unjust, then it would have not been in Jesus's story.


You are right, figures of speech are there with a purpose to communicate a thought via comparison in most cases. You can see it as a metaphor, however, it wouldn't still be what it is really happening. The verse I posted above is clearly an euphemism. Lazarus wasn't sleeping, and Jesus didn't wake up Lazarus, he brought back to life with a command.

Theology is not just the mere study of the Scripture, but the discipline of extracting truths, through studying, from the Scriptures.
What I refer as theological concepts is theologically loaded or profound terms in their context, e.g. grace, salvation, etc... I don't see how "sleep" it is figuratively referring to being dead is a theologically profound term. Jesus himself had to clarify to the disciples that Lazarus was dead without extra comments regarding his "truly sleeping" condition.

Revelation is a book full of elements that are not real to life mixed concepts extracted from real life. Since souls are elements from real life, and also pretty much everything in that passage is, it is sensible to infer that the event described is the imaginary thing, not the elements part of it.

The example of Abel is not equal to the passage in Rev, and not a good comparison. The blood crying out is definitely a personification which is not real to life.

According to your statement, we can imply that if you kill the body, then there is no "whole human entity" anymore, and therefore, there is no "soul". Jesus is separating them as something that remains after death.

You are right, nobody is destroyed in Hades. The rich man was being tormented, not eternally destroyed.


Moving the comma would make the phrase a strange phrase as it would make "today" a totally irrelevant word in the conversation. Jesus had already said "Assuredly" (or verily verily). It could be argued that it is to emphasize, however, he didn't use "I say to you today" in any other moment to put emphasis, so it wasn't his style of conversation to achieve that. In the closest phrase in another passage, "today" actually carries a significant meaning in the sentence:
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night

Leaving the comma where it is, does make the word "today" have a much better sense in the context. It is in response to the wish of the thief to "be remembered" in the future when Jesus came in his kingdom, which Jesus told the good news that won't be a future event for him to be with Jesus, but that "today" the thief will be counted with the righteous.

Therefore, leaving the comma where it is, makes more sense in the context.

Jesus and the thief went to the same place where the rest of the Old Testament saints went: to Hades, but the side where the just was. But Jesus didn't stay there because there was no an unpaid accusation against Him preventing him from reaching heaven, instead He took the righteous saints of the OT up to "paradise" because their sins were paid at the cross. They were justified by believing in a future Savior.


Paradise is the place of rest for the justified in Christ while they await the resurrection. Since it is where Jesus is, we can infer it is in heaven. Paul also says it is in the third heaven.

Philippians 1:23 (NKJV) 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The context of the Psalm is the LORD putting the Lord in place of authority ruling over the land of the living and the dominion of Satan.

David is not in heaven crowned as king, nor with a living body to rule over the land of the living. It would be odd to think that a soul without a body is ruling over the land of the living. The David ascending to heaven is definitely referring to the possibility of David as a living human ascending to heaven, which is what Jesus did.

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

The rich man had 5 brethren, who do they represent?

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

Excellent question

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

To make the point, that the Pharisees did not believe Moses and the prophets, neither would they believe if they witnessed the resurrected Christ… whom Moses and the prophets point to.

Just some scattered thoughts. I need sleep. Or coffee. :lol

Re: What's your view on Hell?
 

The living, unbelievers, especially the Jews?