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Amanah 08-11-2024 07:43 AM
Leadership Structure
 
Elder Esaias

You've created posts on leadership structure in the past.
Please provide that information again, when you have a minute, if you don't mind.
How reliable is Ignatius of Antioch for providing guidance on Church Structure and sacraments.

This may end up on Facebook also

Esaias 08-11-2024 09:20 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Re: the word pastor -

First, the word means 'shepherd'. It is not a title of rank or position since Jesus forbad His followers from receiving, giving, or recognising religious titles amongst themselves. A shepherd's job is to take care of sheep - to feed them and guide them into 'green pastures' so they can be nourished.

Second, there is no 'single pastor of a church' position in Scripture, unless we count Jesus, the 'Chief Pastor', who alone is Head of the church. There are several terms in Scripture used interchangeably - elder, bishop, etc. Every church is to have elderS (plural) - that is the goal of apostolic church planting, to establish a body of believers (mostly new converts) through evangelistic preaching of the word, to teach them the fundamentals of the doctrine of Christ, to encourage them in the faith, etc - in other words, to parent them until they are mature. The local church is mature when elders can be ordained to carry on the work of the apostolic church planter who then (following Paul's example) moves on to the next mission field. The church planter (apostle) does not then 'cut the ties that bind' of the established church, but takes less and less direct oversight of it, that duty belonging to the elders ('bishops' or overseers).

That duty includes being examples to the rest of the believers in godliness, faith, purity of doctrine, purity of lifestyle, righteous deeds, etc. They are responsible for teaching the faithful, both corporately (the whole church) and one-on-one (as Paul did, teaching 'from house to house', always ready to teach anyone and everyone who desired to learn). Thus, visitation is a duty of the elders/bishops of the church. They are accountable for the spiritual condition of the members of the Body, therefore they must take measures to KNOW that condition.

Paul's instructions to timothy are a good starting point for the duties of a pastor/bishop/elder/overseer in the church.

It should be noted that 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/teacher' seem to be descriptive of functions, not offices, whereas elder/bishop and deacon seem to be more along the lines of offices.

God ordains apostles. God ordains prophets. It stands to reason God ordains evangelists and pastor/teachers as well, whereas bishops/overseers/elders are ordained by the church, either via the apostle or his delegate during the time of initial oversight, or by the elders (presbytery) once the church is fully functioning.

And just as a church may have several apostles (a church planting missionary team, for example), several prophets, etc - it may also have several pastors (those who teach and 'feed' the church, elders who have the service of teaching the Body, ie 'teaching elders').

All of this can be seen from Jesus' examples, His commands and teachings to the original Twelve, the book of Acts, and Paul's letters. We also see some of this in Hebrews and John's letters as well.

Evang.Benincasa 08-11-2024 09:23 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616501)
Re: the word pastor -

First, the word means 'shepherd'. It is not a title of rank or position since Jesus forbad His followers from receiving, giving, or recognising religious titles amongst themselves. A shepherd's job is to take care of sheep - to feed them and guide them into 'green pastures' so they can be nourished.

Second, there is no 'single pastor of a church' position in Scripture, unless we count Jesus, the 'Chief Pastor', who alone is Head of the church. There are several terms in Scripture used interchangeably - elder, bishop, etc. Every church is to have elderS (plural) - that is the goal of apostolic church planting, to establish a body of believers (mostly new converts) through evangelistic preaching of the word, to teach them the fundamentals of the doctrine of Christ, to encourage them in the faith, etc - in other words, to parent them until they are mature. The local church is mature when elders can be ordained to carry on the work of the apostolic church planter who then (following Paul's example) moves on to the next mission field. The church planter (apostle) does not then 'cut the ties that bind' of the established church, but takes less and less direct oversight of it, that duty belonging to the elders ('bishops' or overseers).

That duty includes being examples to the rest of the believers in godliness, faith, purity of doctrine, purity of lifestyle, righteous deeds, etc. They are responsible for teaching the faithful, both corporately (the whole church) and one-on-one (as Paul did, teaching 'from house to house', always ready to teach anyone and everyone who desired to learn). Thus, visitation is a duty of the elders/bishops of the church. They are accountable for the spiritual condition of the members of the Body, therefore they must take measures to KNOW that condition.

Paul's instructions to timothy are a good starting point for the duties of a pastor/bishop/elder/overseer in the church.

It should be noted that 'apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor/teacher' seem to be descriptive of functions, not offices, whereas elder/bishop and deacon seem to be more along the lines of offices.

God ordains apostles. God ordains prophets. It stands to reason God ordains evangelists and pastor/teachers as well, whereas bishops/overseers/elders are ordained by the church, either via the apostle or his delegate during the time of initial oversight, or by the elders (presbytery) once the church is fully functioning.

And just as a church may have several apostles (a church planting missionary team, for example), several prophets, etc - it may also have several pastors (those who teach and 'feed' the church, elders who have the service of teaching the Body, ie 'teaching elders').

All of this can be seen from Jesus' examples, His commands and teachings to the original Twelve, the book of Acts, and Paul's letters. We also see some of this in Hebrews and John's letters as well.
:highfive

Amanah 08-11-2024 09:40 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Thanks Elder

I attempted to work through it on my own. We are being taught that communion is for remission of sins, and only leadership ordained ministry can administer it.

So this is what I came up with:

The apostles, following Jesus' instructions (Matthew 28:18-20), established churches and appointed elders (also known as overseers or presbyteroi) to lead and care for the believers (Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5-9). These elders were assisted by deacons (diakonoi), who managed practical matters and served the church (1 Timothy 3:8-13).

The apostles wrote letters (epistles) to the churches, providing guidance and encouragement. They also revisited the churches to maintain unity, correct errors, and strengthen the faith of the believers (Acts 15:36, 2 Timothy 4:2).

Communion, or the Lord's Supper, was a regular fellowship meal eaten in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 11:23-26). This practice was rooted in Jesus' Last Supper with His disciples (Luke 22:19-20).

Apostles were chosen based on specific criteria, including being eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection (Acts 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 9:1). After the original apostles' death, their unique ministry ceased (Revelation 21:14).

However, individuals like Ignatius of Antioch emerged, attempting to manage the church in a more authoritarian manner. They assumed apostolic authority, adopting the title "Bishop" (episkopos) to lead the churches. They introduced novel doctrines, such as the remission of sins through communion, in addition to baptism. This marked a shift towards using communion as a means of controlling the church.

So, if a Bishop who assumes Apostolic authority to appoint elders, who then are the only ones who can break the bread and bless the cup of communion, it seems that the Bishop has excessive authority.

Excerpts from Ignatius' letters:

"Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1)

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

coksiw 08-11-2024 09:58 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Those Ignatius manuscripts have evidence that point to corruption. Ignatius was strangely too “advanced” for his time regarding church governance.
There are scholars that think so as well.

Amanah 08-11-2024 10:19 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
David K Bernard said this on Facebook and it's close to what Jesse White teaches on communion:

Communion isn’t merely symbolic, for Christ truly comes to us in a personal, spiritual way when we participate. It’s an important opportunity to apply the benefits of Christ’s atonement by focusing our faith to receive forgiveness, blessing, healing, and deliverance.

Esaias 08-11-2024 10:52 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616506)
David K Bernard said this on Facebook and it's close to what Jesse White teaches on communion:

Communion isn’t merely symbolic, for Christ truly comes to us in a personal, spiritual way when we participate. It’s an important opportunity to apply the benefits of Christ’s atonement by focusing our faith to receive forgiveness, blessing, healing, and deliverance.
Bernard is head of the UPC, and in the UPC "communion" is generally celebrated once a year (on the pagan "new year's day" for some reason), in a manner borrowed from the Protestants who borrowed their method from the Roman Catholics. That is, they use a cracker of unleavened bread and a thimble of grape juice/wine. The ceremony is conducted in a "solemn" manner, with much "reflection upon the death of Christ, remorse for sins, diligent examination of oneself to make sure one is currently sanctified and thus not guilty of taking the communion in an unworthy condition", etc.

Whereas, in the Bible, the communion was a meal, that had as its central feature a single loaf of bread and a single cup of wine shared by the members, as a fellowship meal in remembrance of how Jesus died to save us and make us one Body, and apparently was eaten often. In fact, there is some evidence that whenever Christians had a meal together including bread and wine (which back then would have been practically every meal) it was considered "the Lord's Supper". Footwashing is also commanded, and while it may not happen at EVERY Lord's Supper it certainly should not be altogether neglected. A church that observes the Paschal feast would definitely be doing the footwashing with the Lord's Supper at that time, at least.

Regarding White... doesn't he have some kind of background or connection with some Antiochene Orthodox Church? Or am I getting him confused with someone else?

Esaias 08-11-2024 10:53 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1616505)
Those Ignatius manuscripts have evidence that point to corruption. Ignatius was strangely too “advanced” for his time regarding church governance.
There are scholars that think so as well.
Yeah, a lot of "Ignatius" seems to be reverse engineered to suit the RCC's claims of ancient legitimacy.

Esaias 08-11-2024 11:00 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616504)
I attempted to work through it on my own. We are being taught that communion is for remission of sins, and only leadership ordained ministry can administer it.
I have heard the teaching that healing is provided for in communion (Dr Gene Scott used to teach that) but I have never heard about remission of sins being in communion except by the Roman Catholic Church and its offshoots.

The initial remission of sins is applied to the individual in baptism. After that, if they sin, they need to repent, at which point they are forgiven. I cannot find anything in scripture to indicate that the Lord's supper is designed for the remission of sins, the way baptism or confession and forsaking sin is. The only way I can see communion being associated with remission of sins would be to argue thus: Saints partake of the Lord's Supper as an act of communion with Christ and his Body, failing to do so indicates a lack of communion with Christ and his Body, which in turn means one is simply outside the faith and still in their sins. But to claim the Lord's Supper is itself a means for providing remission of sins to Christians who sin after baptism is not found in Scripture, at least it hasn't been found by me.

The RCC claims the requirement to "eat My flesh and drink My blood, or else you have no life in you" as the basis for "the sacrament of communion which provides remission of sins". They take eating His flesh literally, since they believe the words of the priest literally changes the bread into the actual flesh of Christ. What's weird is they refuse to give the cup to the faithful, so it seems as if none of the faithful catholics "have any life in them" per their own doctrine. At least the Eastern Orthodox give the faithful both bread and wine. :)

Tithesmeister 08-11-2024 11:01 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Well done Esaias.

Esaias 08-11-2024 11:10 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616507)

Regarding White... doesn't he have some kind of background or connection with some Antiochene Orthodox Church? Or am I getting him confused with someone else?
Who is the Oneness Pentecostal former UPC or ALJC guy who was supposedly ordained by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or Metropolitan, thus claiming his Oneness Pentecostal church group has apostolic succession all the way back to Paul himself?

I keep thinking that is Mr White of the CACI but I am probably thinking of someone else... he's been discussed here before once or twice...

Amanah 08-12-2024 12:48 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Jesse White is former UPCI

The individual you are referring to is likely Daniel (Danny) Jones, a Oneness Pentecostal leader who claims to have received apostolic succession through ordination by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or metropolitan. However, please note that this claim is not widely recognized or accepted by mainstream Christian denominations or scholars.

Daniel Jones was a former member of the United Pentecostal Church (UPC) and the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America (ALJC). He founded the Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship (AMF) and claims to have received apostolic succession through his ordination. (META AI)

Amanah 08-12-2024 05:02 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
A return to biblical purity and authenticity would involve:

*Worshiping God alone: Rejecting pagan practices and idols, focusing on the one true God (Exodus 20:3).

*Restoring biblical Sabbath: Observing the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest and worship (Exodus 20:8-11).

*Removing pagan symbols and practices: Eliminating Christmas trees, Easter eggs, and other symbols with pagan origins from worship and celebrations.

*Restoring Biblical communion

*Emphasizing biblical teachings: Prioritizing scriptural doctrine and discipleship over traditions and customs.

*Rejecting syncretism: Avoiding the blending of Christianity with other religions or pagan practices.

*Returning to biblical festivals: Observing festivals like Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, which are rooted in Scripture.

*Promoting biblical literacy: Encouraging the study and application of Scripture in daily life.

*Restoring church governance: Establishing leadership structures and practices in line with biblical principles.

Amanah 08-12-2024 05:16 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
How many people are caught in the dilemma of wanting to find a church that feels authentic. How many know in their hearts that the mainstream church system that they see on TV and the YouTube prophet fortune tellers they are following are just not right.

But at the same time for the most part the church system isn't necessarily getting it right. So here we are.

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 06:33 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616513)
Jesse White is former UPCI

The individual you are referring to is likely Daniel (Danny) Jones, a Oneness Pentecostal leader who claims to have received apostolic succession through ordination by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or metropolitan. However, please note that this claim is not widely recognized or accepted by mainstream Christian denominations or scholars.

Daniel Jones was a former member of the United Pentecostal Church (UPC) and the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America (ALJC). He founded the Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship (AMF) and claims to have received apostolic succession through his ordination. (META AI)

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...dUk/giphy.webp

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 07:31 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616515)
How many people are caught in the dilemma of wanting to find a church that feels authentic.
Everyone I have ever met. Yet, some have searched so hard that they became atheists or agnostics doing it. If Jesus isn't the light to our path, and our pastor. We end up in the weeds, and inevitably in a deep dark ditch. I don't know how long Paul, Cornelius, or the Ethiopian Eunuch were searching. But in time it all fell together for them. God reached out and brought them in. Time proves all things, and godly patience goes along way. At times we are in locations that might not have it all together. But it is where the Lord Jesus has parked us. We can either tell Him we want something better now. Yet, He wants us to learn a few things before we are moved on. Might not happen for years. Yet, we pray, we study, we teach our children, and we wait to see what God will do. I feel pretty authentic, you feel pretty authentic. So, since that is how we feel in our own shoes, we listen to Jesus voice, wait, and pray. We can't be ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Truth. Just because we are in search of a group. Because sometimes, we look for a group who we "think" are authentic. We end up going inside the group and finding out a totally different deal. Again, it can cause people to lose what they got. End up atheist or agnostic. Or even worse. Religiously Kooky. I love Apostolic Pentecostals in all their bumps, scrapes, and all forms of ologies. I know these brothers are searching just as hard as anyone else. But, like others we tend to focus on bad examples, and that masks the good ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616515)
How many know in their hearts that the mainstream church system that they see on TV and the YouTube prophet fortune tellers they are following are just not right.
This question is complex on quite a few levels. Everyone has a first impression alert system. This enables us to check out a dangerous situation. You know if it is a safe place to land. Some groups love bomb the would be members. Some groups use business marketing techniques. Since most groups charge a cover charge or membership fees. They use a business model for their church. People know this, especially the men. Because usually the men are the ones who have the money, and make the money. hence, if you get the man, chances are you get the family. Bus ministries reach out to children, but that is working from the bottom up. Go for the head and you win the whole body. By I digress. Everyone knows the deal, everyone sees the issues at first glance. We just let things go until we are way too far into the ecclesiastical woods. By the time we realize it we turn around to find all of Jesus' bread crumbs have been eaten by religious birds. We must always keep the main thing the main thing. We must stay connected to Jesus Christ in devotion, unceasing prayer, and unwavering faith. Jesus must lead the way continually. We must love our brothers and sisters, and if we believe to be "authentic" then we need not undermine the ministry, or our brethren. We need to sweep around our own front door, mind our own business. Jesus has our back, we need to wait for Him to move the pieces on the chess board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616515)
But at the same time for the most part the church system isn't necessarily getting it right. So here we are.
You name the religion, and it isn't necessarily getting it right. That's why the ministers and the CONGREGATIONS. Need to stay focused on the Pastor the Lord Jesus Christ. We have to hear His voice so we WON'T follow another.

Like I said, every religion has break aways, schisms and cults. From Buddhism to Islam. From Mormonism to Eastern Orthodoxy. All leave the home base, and wonder out in left field. The Spirit of Truth will guide us to all Truth. Again, we must keep the main thing the main thing. People start to believe their own PR. Especially leadership. Being a minister can cause a "rock star" mentality. Where the voice of God is diminished. But the saint in the congregation who believes he has new revelatory Biblical truth, may not have mature wisdom. Which can end up really making a huge stinking mess.

Just take a look at the history of every religion. You had rock stars, movie stars, and candy bars. Followers who were also, rock stars, movie stars and went too far.

We need to hold on to Jesus in the mighty lighting storm called Searching For Truth.

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 07:33 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616513)
Jesse White is former UPCI

The individual you are referring to is likely Daniel (Danny) Jones, a Oneness Pentecostal leader who claims to have received apostolic succession through ordination by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or metropolitan. However, please note that this claim is not widely recognized or accepted by mainstream Christian denominations or scholars.

Daniel Jones was a former member of the United Pentecostal Church (UPC) and the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America (ALJC). He founded the Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship (AMF) and claims to have received apostolic succession through his ordination. (META AI)
Brother Jesse White was raised in Apostolic Pentecost.

Amanah 08-12-2024 08:22 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1616531)
Everyone I have ever met. Yet, some have searched so hard that they became atheists or agnostics doing it. If Jesus isn't the light to our path, and our pastor. We end up in the weeds, and inevitably in a deep dark ditch. I don't know how long Paul, Cornelius, or the Ethiopian Eunuch were searching. But in time it all fell together for them. God reached out and brought them in. Time proves all things, and godly patience goes along way. At times we are in locations that might not have it all together. But it is where the Lord Jesus has parked us. We can either tell Him we want something better now. Yet, He wants us to learn a few things before we are moved on. Might not happen for years. Yet, we pray, we study, we teach our children, and we wait to see what God will do. I feel pretty authentic, you feel pretty authentic. So, since that is how we feel in our own shoes, we listen to Jesus voice, wait, and pray. We can't be ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Truth. Just because we are in search of a group. Because sometimes, we look for a group who we "think" are authentic. We end up going inside the group and finding out a totally different deal. Again, it can cause people to lose what they got. End up atheist or agnostic. Or even worse. Religiously Kooky. I love Apostolic Pentecostals in all their bumps, scrapes, and all forms of ologies. I know these brothers are searching just as hard as anyone else. But, like others we tend to focus on bad examples, and that masks the good ones.



This question is complex on quite a few levels. Everyone has a first impression alert system. This enables us to check out a dangerous situation. You know if it is a safe place to land. Some groups love bomb the would be members. Some groups use business marketing techniques. Since most groups charge a cover charge or membership fees. They use a business model for their church. People know this, especially the men. Because usually the men are the ones who have the money, and make the money. hence, if you get the man, chances are you get the family. Bus ministries reach out to children, but that is working from the bottom up. Go for the head and you win the whole body. By I digress. Everyone knows the deal, everyone sees the issues at first glance. We just let things go until we are way too far into the ecclesiastical woods. By the time we realize it we turn around to find all of Jesus' bread crumbs have been eaten by religious birds. We must always keep the main thing the main thing. We must stay connected to Jesus Christ in devotion, unceasing prayer, and unwavering faith. Jesus must lead the way continually. We must love our brothers and sisters, and if we believe to be "authentic" then we need not undermine the ministry, or our brethren. We need to sweep around our own front door, mind our own business. Jesus has our back, we need to wait for Him to move the pieces on the chess board.



You name the religion, and it isn't necessarily getting it right. That's why the ministers and the CONGREGATIONS. Need to stay focused on the Pastor the Lord Jesus Christ. We have to hear His voice so we WON'T follow another.

Like I said, every religion has break aways, schisms and cults. From Buddhism to Islam. From Mormonism to Eastern Orthodoxy. All leave the home base, and wonder out in left field. The Spirit of Truth will guide us to all Truth. Again, we must keep the main thing the main thing. People start to believe their own PR. Especially leadership. Being a minister can cause a "rock star" mentality. Where the voice of God is diminished. But the saint in the congregation who believes he has new revelatory Biblical truth, may not have mature wisdom. Which can end up really making a huge stinking mess.

Just take a look at the history of every religion. You had rock stars, movie stars, and candy bars. Followers who were also, rock stars, movie stars and went too far.

We need to hold on to Jesus in the mighty lighting storm called Searching For Truth.
Very sound advice and counsel, thank you!

Esaias 08-12-2024 09:12 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616512)
Who is the Oneness Pentecostal former UPC or ALJC guy who was supposedly ordained by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or Metropolitan, thus claiming his Oneness Pentecostal church group has apostolic succession all the way back to Paul himself?

I keep thinking that is Mr White of the CACI but I am probably thinking of someone else... he's been discussed here before once or twice...
Sorry, it was Jerry Hayes: https://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.c...-of-right.html

Amanah 08-12-2024 09:29 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616555)
From the linked website, this is CACI doctrine also:
Except CACI says Elders instead of Presbyters


From Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 107) we learn that the New Testament model of ministers in the Church are the Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons and People.

The Ministry of the people is to represent Christ and his church; to bear witness to him wherever they may be; and, according to gifts given to them, to carry on Christ’s work of reconciliation in the world, and to take their place in the worship, and ministry of the Church.

The Ministry of the Bishop is to represent Christ and His church, particularly as Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher; to act in Christ’s name for the reconciliation of the world and the building up of the Church; and to ordain others to continue Christ’s ministry.

The ministry of the Presbyter is fulfilled through a designated performance of ordained duties; representing Christ and His Church, particularly to share with the Bishop in the overseeing of the Church; to assist the Bishop in the proclamation of the gospel; to administer the sacraments and to bless and declare pardon in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Ministry of a Deacon or Deaconess is fulfilled through a designated performance of ordained duties; representing Christ and His Church, particularly as a servant to those in need; and to assist the presbyter or bishop in the proclamation of the Gospel and the administration of the sacraments.

Esaias 08-12-2024 10:36 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
The two church "offices" are bishop (overseer) and deacon (minister/servant/assistant). Since each congregation was to have bishops, and each was to have elders (ordained elders), it seems the bishops (and possibly also the deacons) were the elders. So I don't see elders (presbyters) as a separate class from bishops and deacons.

This structure is essentially the same as first century synagogue structure except there is no "president" (that role being fulfilled by Jesus through His Spirit in the church).

Esaias 08-12-2024 10:37 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
A good rule of thumb is to be wary of people who seem intent on delegating power to themselves...

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 11:50 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616557)
The two church "offices" are bishop (overseer) and deacon (minister/servant/assistant). Since each congregation was to have bishops, and each was to have elders (ordained elders), it seems the bishops (and possibly also the deacons) were the elders. So I don't see elders (presbyters) as a separate class from bishops and deacons.

This structure is essentially the same as first century synagogue structure except there is no "president" (that role being fulfilled by Jesus through His Spirit in the church).
:highfive

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 12:10 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616558)
A good rule of thumb is to be wary of people who seem intent on delegating power to themselves...
Yes.

Sadly in the land of the blind. The one eyed man is king. My opinion is that it is usually the people who prop up the king. Either they vote him in by ballot. Or they follow him all the way to the Kool Aid. Despots need an inner circle. They can’t hold authority without it. They need the groomers in the pews to keep everyone in obedience to the authority. If the Holy Ghost starts to move among the true believers, the inner circle will either put out the fire. Or report on what they view as rebellion. Yet, this is a double edged sword. Instead of a single despot with an inner circle. You have a congregation policing what the “elder” or pastor can present to the church. On one hand you have an individual looking to delegate power to themselves. On the other you have a group who look to delegate power to themselves. People always try to control and say it’s the Holy Ghost. 40,000 denominations in this country? More probably to be coming soon?

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 12:27 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616555)
Oh boy oh boy.

How could we forget him :lol

Amanah 08-12-2024 03:12 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
I don't regret the time I've spent at CACI, it's been an amazing learning experience, there has been some excellent teaching and great people. I've personally grown in the last two years in many ways.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
Lean not unto your own understanding
In all your ways a knowledge Him
And He will direct your paths.

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 03:13 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616562)
I don't regret the time I've spent at CACI, it's been an amazing learning experience, there has been some excellent teaching and great people. I've personally grown in the last two years in many ways.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
Lean not unto your own understanding
In all your ways a knowledge Him
And He will direct your paths.
:thumbsup

Evang.Benincasa 08-12-2024 03:52 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
It’s a beautiful thing to watch the Lord Jesus Christ Shepard His sheep. Those sheep who hear His voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow.

Praise the Lord in Jesus name.

diakonos 08-13-2024 10:28 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616512)
Who is the Oneness Pentecostal former UPC or ALJC guy who was supposedly ordained by an Antiochene Orthodox Church bishop or Metropolitan, thus claiming his Oneness Pentecostal church group has apostolic succession all the way back to Paul himself?

I keep thinking that is Mr White of the CACI but I am probably thinking of someone else... he's been discussed here before once or twice...
The guy in Texas… I don’t recall his name

Nicodemus1968 08-13-2024 07:25 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616562)
I don't regret the time I've spent at CACI, it's been an amazing learning experience, there has been some excellent teaching and great people. I've personally grown in the last two years in many ways.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
Lean not unto your own understanding
In all your ways a knowledge Him
And He will direct your paths.
Im sorry haven't been keeping track. Are you leaving CACI?

Amanah 08-13-2024 07:48 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616610)
Im sorry haven't been keeping track. Are you leaving CACI?
I love the CACI, but I have a few serious issues with them.
I also of have a few serious issues with the UPCI.

I need Queen Elizabeth to sort it out for me.

Evang.Benincasa 08-14-2024 08:15 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616613)
I love the CACI, but I have a few serious issues with them.
I also of have a few serious issues with the UPCI.

I need Queen Elizabeth to sort it out for me.
The Lord Jesus has your back. :thumbsup

Amanah 08-14-2024 09:36 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1616623)
The Lord Jesus has your back. :thumbsup
I'm definitely praying and asking for wisdom, understanding, and direction. And to be led by the Spirit, to be where God wants me to be. And to be useful to others in a way that ministers to the least of these, and edifies the body of Christ.

Evang.Benincasa 08-14-2024 10:12 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616628)
I'm definitely praying and asking for wisdom, understanding, and direction. And to be led by the Spirit, to be where God wants me to be. And to be useful to others in a way that ministers to the least of these, and edifies the body of Christ.
Big Amen to that 👍🏽

Amanah 08-18-2024 08:41 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
You really can't fly solo.

The body of Christ is designed for ministry through Apostles, Elders, and Deacons operating in the offices of the five fold ministry and the 9 gifts of the Spirit, sharing communion together.

One person can't be of the above.

Evang.Benincasa 08-18-2024 06:31 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616763)
You really can't fly solo.

The body of Christ is designed for ministry through Apostles, Elders, and Deacons operating in the offices of the five fold ministry and the 9 gifts of the Spirit, sharing communion together.

One person can't be of the above.
I understand that, but "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

Swinging from tree to tree sooner or later leads to a broken branch. Sending us head first to the jungle floor. Jesus is leading His sheep, they know His voice, and won't follow the voice of strangers. Time, everything takes time. Prayer connection to Jesus our Good Shepard shows us our path on the Pilgrim's progress.

Amanah 08-19-2024 02:12 AM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1616767)
I understand that, but "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

Swinging from tree to tree sooner or later leads to a broken branch. Sending us head first to the jungle floor. Jesus is leading His sheep, they know His voice, and won't follow the voice of strangers. Time, everything takes time. Prayer connection to Jesus our Good Shepard shows us our path on the Pilgrim's progress.
Thank you!

Sister Alvear 08-19-2024 01:19 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Actually I have never seen a perfect place...

Sister Alvear 08-19-2024 01:19 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
however there are good places...

Amanah 08-19-2024 01:23 PM
Re: Leadership Structure
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 1616774)
however there are good places...
:thumbsup
I believe you're right!


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