Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616908)

I have not lost respect for the ministry and hold them in high esteem.

The Bible gives many examples of the failures of humanity . . .
It's only by his mercy we are not consumed.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616909)

I am referring more about respect for the ministry by who is or isn't allowed in the office.

Forgiveness/mercy isn't the issue.

Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1616910)

Your details are pretty vague, how can anyone comment on allegations that amount to gossip. I caution you to be careful.

Matthew 12:36-37
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616906)

I know a situation where the asst pastor is married to a woman he ran off with when he was a pastor of a church. I think he holds a upc license. I've seen other things by ministers as well but still allowed to keep a license and preach. This leads me my question, have we lost respect for the ministry?
Do we not protect and respect the ministry by being selective who is allowed to minister? We teach to honor and respect ministers, but does it not make it harder when questionable men in questionable scenarios are allowed in it? Seems like ministers themselves are losing respect for the office, not just people.


Would you agree a pastor that married the woman he ran off with is disqualified from any ministerial position?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616915)

Who is "we"? There are groups where the office of ministry is not held in high esteem, at least not high enough to require a decent standard of behaviour for ministers. There are other groups that are not in such a state. It all depends on the particular group, whether a denomination, a fellowship, a local church, or whatever.

A pastor who ran off with a woman... what does that mean? Was she some other man's wife? Did he leave his own wife to run off with this woman? Or did he just marry a woman? And what does "ran off with" mean? He and a woman left their local community, moved to another town, and got married? At least they got married, right? Again, unless one or both were already married to somebody else and they are basically homewreckers?

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616917)

Sorry for confusion, a married pastor that ran off with another woman, adultery. He left church he was pastoring to be with her. Married her and now in the ministry again as asst pastor.

We doesn't mean everyone or every where, but I've seen it enough in our area for it to be an issue.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1616920)

Looks like the individual decided to expose what he was doing behind everyone’s back. Guys (or gals) who are shady, usually expose themselves sooner or later. Respect is earned in life. I don’t care what you call yourself. If you claim to deadlift 500lbs, there is only one way to prove it. You have to do it. We are always critiqued at what we do. Not matter if you are a preacher, the butcher, the baker, or the candle stick maker. You are always under the watchful eye of the people. You might think you are getting away with it, but sooner or later your mask will slip.

I don’t lose respect for the ministry. I respect the ministry. I’ll lose respect when you keep claiming to lift when you can’t. Earn respect, do the hard work, and always keep in mind you are being watched. Because who you are in the dark is really who you are.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1616920)

Looks like the individual decided to expose what he was doing behind everyone’s back. Guys (or gals) who are shady, usually expose themselves sooner or later. Respect is earned in life. I don’t care what you call yourself. If you claim to deadlift 500lbs, there is only one way to prove it. You have to do it. We are always critiqued at what we do. Not matter if you are a preacher, the butcher, the baker, or the candle stick maker. You are always under the watchful eye of the people. You might think you are getting away with it, but sooner or later your mask will slip.

I don’t lose respect for the ministry. I respect the ministry. I’ll lose respect when you keep claiming to lift when you can’t. Earn respect, do the hard work, and always keep in mind you are being watched. Because who you are in the dark is really who you are.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616922)

I have respect for the ministry as well and always given grace, but some lines do need to be drawn. I think that's what you're saying. If so, I agree.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1616923)

I like this.

Luke.12

[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Ponder this passage.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616906)

I know a situation where the asst pastor is married to a woman he ran off with when he was a pastor of a church. I think he holds a upc license. I've seen other things by ministers as well but still allowed to keep a license and preach. This leads me my question, have we lost respect for the ministry?
Do we not protect and respect the ministry by being selective who is allowed to minister? We teach to honor and respect ministers, but does it not make it harder when questionable men in questionable scenarios are allowed in it? Seems like ministers themselves are losing respect for the office, not just people.


Would you agree a pastor that married the woman he ran off with is disqualified from any ministerial position?

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616906)

I know a situation where the asst pastor is married to a woman he ran off with when he was a pastor of a church. I think he holds a upc license. I've seen other things by ministers as well but still allowed to keep a license and preach. This leads me my question, have we lost respect for the ministry?
Do we not protect and respect the ministry by being selective who is allowed to minister? We teach to honor and respect ministers, but does it not make it harder when questionable men in questionable scenarios are allowed in it? Seems like ministers themselves are losing respect for the office, not just people.


Would you agree a pastor that married the woman he ran off with is disqualified from any ministerial position?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616948)

I guess my question would be, why would he be disqualified for being a minister, or a Pastor?

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1616950)

Adultery

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616953)

I guess I should’ve asked if adultery disqualifies you from being a minister? Can a man or women that has committed adultery be restored and able to minister themselves once again?

Also, if it does, then does that mean a man or women that has lusted against another does that act disqualify them from being a minister? Because the Lord said that was adultery in their spirit.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616953)

I guess I should’ve asked if adultery disqualifies you from being a minister? Can a man or women that has committed adultery be restored and able to minister themselves once again?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616948)

I guess my question would be, why would he be disqualified for being a minister, or a Pastor?

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1616950)

Adultery

Originally Posted by esaias (Post 1616955)

a pastor runs off with someone else's wife? Or dumps his own wife to run off with his mistress? And gets "restored" to be pastor again? I just don't see that being an option. It's part of why religion is such a mess these days.



The church can not keep an eye on what's going in people's heads. There is no way to enforce such a thing in the church, any more than there was a way to enforce the 10th commandment back in the old days. Therefore such a situation would have to be handled by god himself.

There is also a clear difference between someone coveting another's wife as an individual act or moment on the one hand, and someone actually going through with it and wrecking at least one home and probably several, with damage results lasting basically the rest of those people's lives, not to mention the damage done to any kids who may be involved in the train wreck caused by such a person.

So, no. If a guy wrecks homes and runs off with his whore then no, he doesn't get to cry tears and get his job back. Sorry (but not sorry, too bad).

Is that harsh? Well, is it harsher than destroying families?

How does the pastor repent of adultery? Spin the little prayer wheel while having a little talk with jesus, then the adulterous relationship somehow becomes sanctified? Or by ending the adulterous relationship?

And that of course assumes that divorcing a wife and marrying another is in fact adultery (which is debatable from a whole scripture standpoint). But does the scripture allow for divorced and remarried men to serve as bishops and deacons? Is that a "husband of one wife"?

Just from a practical point of view, how does such a character not bring a reproach upon the church and upon the gospel, if there are no consequences for what they have done?

If a man robs a bunch of people, should he be able to ask forgiveness and then just not do the jail time? Or are there consequences for people's actions, even if they have been covered by the blood?

Modern churches will accept an adulterer or embezzler as a pastor, but god forbid they preach the wrong eschatology. Seems like priorities are a bit askew here, amen?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616955)

A pastor runs off with someone else's wife? Or dumps his own wife to run off with his mistress? And gets "restored" to be pastor again? I just don't see that being an option. It's part of why religion is such a mess these days.



The church can not keep an eye on what's going in people's heads. There is no way to enforce such a thing in the church, any more than there was a way to enforce the 10th commandment back in the old days. Therefore such a situation would have to be handled by God Himself.

There is also a clear difference between someone coveting another's wife as an individual act or moment on the one hand, and someone actually going through with it and wrecking at least one home and probably several, with damage results lasting basically the rest of those people's lives, not to mention the damage done to any kids who may be involved in the train wreck caused by such a person.

So, no. If a guy wrecks homes and runs off with his whore then no, he doesn't get to cry tears and get his job back. Sorry (but not sorry, too bad).

Is that harsh? Well, is it harsher than destroying families?

How does the pastor repent of adultery? Spin the little prayer wheel while having a little talk with Jesus, then the adulterous relationship somehow becomes sanctified? Or by ending the adulterous relationship?

And that of course assumes that divorcing a wife and marrying another is in fact adultery (which is debatable from a whole Scripture standpoint). But does the Scripture allow for divorced and remarried men to serve as bishops and deacons? Is that a "husband of one wife"?

Just from a practical point of view, how does such a character not bring a reproach upon the church and upon the Gospel, if there are no consequences for what they have done?

If a man robs a bunch of people, should he be able to ask forgiveness and then just not do the jail time? OR are there consequences for people's actions, even if they have been covered by the blood?

Modern churches will accept an adulterer or embezzler as a pastor, but God forbid they preach the wrong eschatology. Seems like priorities are a bit askew here, amen?

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616963)

It's more than adultery. He is currently married to the woman he left his wife over.

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1616970)

It’s continuous adultery.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616962)

He is currenrly married to the woman he left his wife for an adulterous affair. Don't you think that be an issue for ministry?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616979)

I think it would definitely be an issue for that man or women.

The question was have we lost respect for the ministry?

What is the reason for the ministry?

Should this man be banned form ever doing anything in the church as far as ministerial wise? I cannot say, absolutely! I believe the very foundation of our belief is forgiveness and restoration. We are too much, "off with his or her head".

What does it truly mean, not what we have been taught by a human mind of vengeance or carnality, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616955)

A pastor runs off with someone else's wife? Or dumps his own wife to run off with his mistress? And gets "restored" to be pastor again? I just don't see that being an option. It's part of why religion is such a mess these days.

The church can not keep an eye on what's going in people's heads. There is no way to enforce such a thing in the church, any more than there was a way to enforce the 10th commandment back in the old days. Therefore such a situation would have to be handled by God Himself.

There is also a clear difference between someone coveting another's wife as an individual act or moment on the one hand, and someone actually going through with it and wrecking at least one home and probably several, with damage results lasting basically the rest of those people's lives, not to mention the damage done to any kids who may be involved in the train wreck caused by such a person.

So, no. If a guy wrecks homes and runs off with his whore then no, he doesn't get to cry tears and get his job back. Sorry (but not sorry, too bad).

Is that harsh? Well, is it harsher than destroying families?

How does the pastor repent of adultery? Spin the little prayer wheel while having a little talk with Jesus, then the adulterous relationship somehow becomes sanctified? Or by ending the adulterous relationship?

And that of course assumes that divorcing a wife and marrying another is in fact adultery (which is debatable from a whole Scripture standpoint). But does the Scripture allow for divorced and remarried men to serve as bishops and deacons? Is that a "husband of one wife"?

Just from a practical point of view, how does such a character not bring a reproach upon the church and upon the Gospel, if there are no consequences for what they have done?

If a man robs a bunch of people, should he be able to ask forgiveness and then just not do the jail time? OR are there consequences for people's actions, even if they have been covered by the blood?

Modern churches will accept an adulterer or embezzler as a pastor, but God forbid they preach the wrong eschatology. Seems like priorities are a bit askew here, amen?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616979)

I think it would definitely be an issue for that man or women.

The question was have we lost respect for the ministry?

What is the reason for the ministry?

Should this man be banned form ever doing anything in the church as far as ministerial wise? I cannot say, absolutely! I believe the very foundation of our belief is forgiveness and restoration. We are too much, "off with his or her head".

What does it truly mean, not what we have been taught by a human mind of vengeance or carnality, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance?

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616980)

Does that work the same for the pastor that went to prison for molesting his daughters? His calling to the ministry still intact?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616983)

That's a great question.

Yet, more important than his ministry would be the need for restoration. And I mean his salvation. This goes for adultery, etc...

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616982)

Also, the text about gifts and calling of God without repentance seems to be referring to the election of the Jews, a covenant thing. Not referring to gifts of ministry or office of bishop.

The issue isn't can he be restored, but holding a ministerial position, he is the asst pastor, while married to the woman he left his wife over..

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1616984)

Right, anyone can restored to the Lord. God is that powerful, but holding a position or office of ministry is the thing. So what is your answer? Can a convicted molester that was a pastor be restored to being a pastor again?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616986)

Being the Pastor, probably that will not happen. Being used ever again in the ministry, I can say yes he could be used again.

I give bible studies to inmates weekly. I have given bible studies for years in the prisons and jails of Colorado, and now here in Utah. Been to high max prisons, and county jails. Had bible studies with inmates that will never see the outside of a facility again. Being used again after a horrific crime isn't out of the bounds of impossible, it just determines who your ministering to.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616985)

You think that was just for the jews, and cannot be applied to a persons calling? It cannot be a principal applied to the new covenant church?

I understand that it's a touchy subject, I just see many in the church salivating over the fact that they can pronounce judgement on the situation that was brought up. It's like they want to be the one pushing the drug into the vein of the man or women being put to death.

Truly, the man that committed the act, would have to restored by prayer, fasting, counseling. I believe the current leadership, and saints would have to agree for a position in the church for that man or women. I believe God can still use him.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1616981)

If I'm wrong about the way I'm reading your post, please let me know. However, why is it so hard to believe that a man that does commit adultery cannot be, "restored" like you have written? If he doesn't ever become Pastor again, then fine, does that mean God stops using him in ministry? The very nature of God is forgiveness! And if it's not yours or mine, then we are not saved!

Paul said, "ye which are spiritual restore such a one with the spirit of meekness..."

What does restore mean?

If a secretary takes money from the church, is she to be kicked out? Maybe drag her or him to the front and rebuke them in front of the whole church. Tell them to get out of the church, and go be a baptist. What is the church for?

Can an adulterer, whore, embezzler, etc... can any of these be restored?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616989)

Upon repentance they can be restored back to the community of faith. But they have disqualified themselves being a deacon or elder.

1 Timothy 3:2-13 KJV
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 KJV
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1616989)

Upon repentance they can be restored back to the community of faith. But they have disqualified themselves being a deacon or elder.

1 Timothy 3:2-13 KJV
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 KJV
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.