Rules and Spirit
 

We read in Galatians and Romans that law came to "keep" Israel until the Lord would come in incarnation. It was temporary! And Paul noted that rules and legislation were ONLY for Israel during their immatuire state before the Lord came. Gal 4 speaks of Israel being children and only heirs during the time of law. But once Christ came, graduation occurred and God knew it was tiome for spiritual maturity to begin. Hence, out with rule books and intrduction to walking after the Spirit with new birth.

We can look at individuals in the same light. Those who CANNOT learn to walk in the Spirit, and seem to WANT rules and codes are simply spiritually immature. It is so easy to live by a set of rules. Our fleshly nature is very accustomed to that. We have rules everywhere, even in secular society. But to learn to be led by the Spirit and walk in that Spirit is far beyond the experience of rule keeping.

Keep in mind that when we walk after the Spirit, we will nto fulfill lusts of the flesh, and we will live the way Law TRIED TO get Israel to live, yet we do it all without resorting to a list of rules!

So many in churches today, apostolics and all, would far sooner live by rules. Folks, we have to mature. It's high time we walk after the Spirit!

Good post, Bro. Blume. I wish I could say things as well as you do.

In my opinion, Romans 8:1-4 teaches that the righteous requirements of the Law are met in us who walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. Also, that we are not supposed to argue about "do's and don't's" and judge one another on things like that. In my opinion Romans 14 means we each have to work out our own salvation based on what Jesus has worked into us and it is the "weaker" ones who want a list of rules and standards.

Thanks for your kind words, brother. I agree perfectly with your good points as well. The weaker brethren could be also said to be spiritually immature.

If one is walking in The Holy Ghost then they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If one is being led of The Holy Spirit then they will be led into true Holiness because The Holy Spirit is a Holy Spirit so following it's leading will produce Holiness in the life of the believer.

Perhaps the "weaker" [as they've been called in posts above) ones just SEEK a "measuring stick" by which to gauge their growth, or somethings, codes, whatever, to follow, LOOK TO, as they attempt to become whatever it is they are supposed to become like? How can they possibly KNOW yet what is to come., if they can't get past the basics? It is certainly not a bad thing to seek this, its only a natural impulse.

Good thoughts!

Romans 14 and 15 uses the term "weaker" in this precise context, by the way.

It is not bad when one is first newly saved. They cannot but walk after the flesh. In fact, living by rules is walking after the flesh. I think God expects that in newly saved people. But it is a problem, and can become bad, when such a walk is never replaced by one after the Spirit. This was part of the core problem with the Galatians!

When we LOOK TO rules, as a measuring stick, we are simply lacking the leading of God's Spirit. One does not know how to be led by the Spirit, nor sense direction from Him in such a case.

Another problem involved in not getting past the basics can be the ministry. If the ministry does not teach it, what can the saints do?

But natural impulses is what walking after the flesh is all about. And it actually came from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Hmmm...

It seems it would be hard to differentiate between walking after the Spirit and following rules as the NT lays out so many.

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves with modest apparel...."

Laying out how to handle the gifts, the Lord's supper, etc.

Just to name a few.

I think, mainly, we should be careful not to write our own "Mishna"?

I first saw the title and it sounded like a thought I would find enjoyable and then I saw who authored the thread and I knew it was going to be great.

Excellent writing brother.

In todays church world those who would begin a movement to maturity are often marked as rebellious and in the midst of a wonderful maturity in Christ they are thrown off kilter by a reaction they do not understand.

Spiritual maturity is a what God desires for all of us.

AMEN AMEN!

GREAT POST! ;)

Huh? You mean if I follow after Jesus' rule to treat others like I wish to be treated I'm walking in the flesh and not the spirit? Unless your definition of "rules" is standards and not the teachings of Jesus. Would you consider any of Jesus' teaching to be rules?

That is a concept. Not a rule. A rule would be... When people do this... you do that... etc

A rule would be where someone stipulated that you should do this or do that to fulfill that concept.

Modesty is a concept... One should live by that concept. A list of do's & don'ts as to how a person should dress are rules.

When one learns to live within the concept without the need for the rules then that is maturity.

Right, Digging. Let me further the point of my post. As the Word lays out direction/concepts people are generally accustomed to sitting back and deciding it is good to interpret what that direction or concept is actually saying.

Hence, we have the Jews writing the Mishna, feeling the need to elaborate on the Law.

I believe that scares many individuals as they feel the need to set some sort of perimeter around the people, thereby, keeping some semblance of order.

I can see how it is easy done. Mainly, because God is a God of order. Moses followed order and thus, it's almost an example.

How did Azua street operate with order or did it always have order just following the Spirit? So many people with different mindsets and ideas.

I REALLY like your quote, Digging4Truth, may I use it?
:woohoo

Sure...

I like the subject of this thread.

"Rules" create loopholes. "Principles" do not.

It is the reason that new laws created by congress are often thousands, to tens of thousands of pages long. Because it is possible to commit a crime and somehow fall between some unseen-when-written crack and not be prosecuted.
For instance, did you know that up until a few short years ago, ANYONE could plant a video camera in your shower and watch (obviously unaware)? What would any guy here do when he found out the guy with the beer belly living next door had been watching your wife?
The law could not do a thing about it because only LISTENING was considered illegal. Video was not covered.

The same is done in the churches. I understand the INTENT of MOST "standards" yet I cannot tell you how often I have been to services and especially camp meetings where the women were done up every bit as much as starlets on the red carpet at the latest Hollywood premier. Every hair hairsprayed in place as much as a bride on her wedding. Wearing their very best cloths. Simply there to be seen.
(Guys are not exempt. It's just not QUITE as obvious with us.)

It could be said that every RULE was being kept to the letter. But the spirit was being completely thrown out the window.

Bro Blume,

Are there different types of rules? For instance there is the Law of Moses, and,

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1 Cor 9:20-21 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Is there a law or rule we must keep and we do this 'keeping' by walking and being led of the Spirit?

Good comments.
The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

Good question!

Put it this way: Jesus said that if we love him we will see ourselves keeping his commandments. We just WILL keep them. This is what it means to have His law written in our hearts. We need to cease looking for rules on paper and look inward into our hearts where the Law of God is written on fleshy tables.

In regards to your example of your thought that Christ had a rule in saying we must treat folks the way we wish to be treated, anything Jesus said is something the Spirit must empower us to do. Reading a rule and trying OUR BEST to fulfill it is what I was speaking against. We need God's Spirit empowering us. My point is basically that sinners can read a list of rules and exert their will power to keep them. The New Testament goes beyond that. Sinners cannot do what we can do in the Spirit. So this is one way to determine whether or not we are truly living in the Spirit. If a sinner can do what we're doing, then we're not living after the Spirit.

Pressing On mentioned the idea that there are so many rules in the New Testament. I disagree, sis. :) I think the error of so many has been to make the New Testament another rule book like the Law of Moses. God never intended that.

For example, the beattitudes cannot be "kept" as rules. They simply describe the STATE OF A PERSON'S HEART. And only God can make our hearts that way. I would say that anything that could appear as a "rule" in the New Testament, which can be accomplished by anyone with or without the Spirit, is something we have mistaken as a rule. Many of the things Jesus described were things that people can only do if they are empowered by the Holy Ghost.

If anything is required of us similar to a rule, it is something that we must actually rely upon the Holy Ghost in us to be able to accomplish it. Without the Spirit, we cannot do the things Jesus said... at least not do them genuinely the way God expects them to be done.

What is the law of God?

The law of God is what He once wrote on tablets of stone and has now written on the fleshy tables of our heart.

The law of God is what He has put in our inward parts and has written in our hearts.

So true...

Very good points we're reading here, folks.

As Digging.. said, a law is principle. The law of gravity, for instance, is a "source" or principle from which things react a certain way, given the circumstances required for it to fall under the law. When we qualify for a law to work, we will expect to see the same results.

The law of faith says that if we believe and trust, then we can expect certain results. But the law of Moses is certainly different. It is what Paul called carnal ordinances. The flesh is appealed to by it. It relates to flesh, which is all God could do before Giving His Spirit and redeeming men.

Principles are here again. Here, Paul noted that his will was present to obey the Mosaic law of God, but he could not do it. His flesh, instead, alkways tended towards sinning.

The Law of Moses is mentioned above in that verse.

Yes! But it is not a carnal ordinance. You raise a good point. Perhaps it is better to speak about carnal rules versus spiritual ones. Since this righteousness without the law falls under another sort of law -- that of faith -- there are certain qualifications we must hold in order to experience that righteousness.

Romans 8:2 also mentions the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The way we relate to this law is not through the means by which people relate to the Law of Moses. Our spirits discern God's ways in the law of the Spirit, whereas our flesh relates to the law of Moses.

So in my title, Rules and Spirit, both are involving LAWS. It's just that the flesh relates to the Law of Moses and the human born again spirit relates to the Law of Faith. But we've been so entrenched in carnality all our lives so that after we are saved we find it far easier to resort to the WRITTEN law of Moses, and turn the New Testament into something similar, instead of learning to be spiritual and walking after the Spirit and relating to the inward law written on our hearts.

Wow, great summation, and thanks for your kind words.

Yes, the way Paul spoke of law and faith in Romans was misunderstood, too. That is why Paul kept clarifying his point by asking a hypothetical question he knew people would ask in error, and correcting it himself.

"Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"

"Shall we sin because we are not under law? God forbid."

I have had people ask these VERY SAME QUESTIONS!

Paul was amazing in predicting a carnal response from those who simply cannot relate to spirituality. WOW.

Good point and goes along better at explaining what I was trying to say.

We have lived in carnality so long and we do settle into the written law in the church. We gravitate to it.

What about praying and fasting and Seeking God's face till we are changed from wanting to do fleshy things or carnal desires to wanting to mind the things of the Spirit ?

No need for that brother... We have RULES......... :)

Rules if Biblical based aren't bad ,but rules won't conform us to the image of Christ.If one experiences the life changing power of the shed blood of The Lamb ,then they'll want to follow The Lord in progressive sanctification.

Indeed... I do believe I started a thread on that very subject sometime back.

Jesus told Nicodemous....

that which is born of the flesh is flesh...

that which is born of the spirit is spirit...

We already have too much flesh romping about... we need more spirit for sure!


What then do we do to teach, train, etc. those who are new to this walking after the Spirit stuff and by "default" walk after the flesh?

If "standards" are applied and taught with the principle being the focus, would that serve to guide people into following after Him?

Ever notice how some kids need training wheels longer that others.... some always need them... some learn to ride without them at all..... maybe the training wheels being there depends on the kid and not the teacher....

True except I RARELY, if ever, actually see the "training wheels" come off. Instead more and more are usually added.

In my experience, we are taught to follow the pastor to such an extent that we are not even emulating the Bereans at all. In some places not allowed to question anything at all.

Therefore, your average saint is just going to keep walking that treadmill because it's so much easier.

Perhaps pressing-on. I would suppose that it would depend on the pastor.

The "average saint" in America I have discovered is reluctant to swim out into the deeper waters.

Many times the saints want to know things like, "What is your standard about this... what is the standard about that...."

Where there certainly are principles in scripture that as believers we apply in our lives, we probably agree that it is about walking with Him.

I do agree. It all depends on the pastor. But, is the average saint "reluctant" because the leadership doesn't encourage it?

We are doing an open Bible study question/answer session once a week at our church. I think it is going to be very productive as we've covered some really good topics and found a balance and gentleness in the Word.

It's a very relaxed setting. I would encourage any church to try it.

I would think that for the average saint to be reluctant because the leadership doesn't encourage it to be a good thing.

Sometimes I hate how slowly things change. Sometimes, however, it is a healthy thing for changes to move slowly. I would suppose it depends on the change and the individuals....

I agree. Slow is sometimes frustrating.

I don't quite understand your first sentence. Could you come again on that? Thanks.

VERY good point.

It really is a sad state when for decades of church attendance people still know hardly anything at all about Spirit leading. Imagine what God feels like having His Spirit in us and unable to work very much in us due to such states of being. Some live their entire Spirit filled lives without ever learning to walk after that Spirit.

Oh I have searched so diligently this morning and I can't find it.

I will keep searching.

But your statement above reminds me of a quote that I saw the other day.

It makes this basic point....

"Men will not find further truth so long as their current vocation is reliant upon their current understanding."

Many leaders gripe about their flock and how they don't think for themselves and have to be told such minute details but... truth be told... such a mindset is their bread & butter and those who think for themselves are quickly marked as rebellious in many cases and won't be tolerated for long.

Absolutely true, DFT. Excellent post.

SOmetimes, we pastors don't really know what we want.

I think that we really want people who won't question us, will do what they're supposed to do, not call us in the middle of a golf round, pay their tithes every week, go visit each other in the hospital, bring new people to church, and come to church every night during a revival.

LOL...

Is it not human nature for us to want the best of all worlds? I would venture to say that we are all guilty of that.

I'm not a troublemaker. I currently attend a church and work very hard. I involve myself in everything in which I have a talent to offer.

But I LOVE to study the word. And for a decade now I have remained silent on the things I believe and study. I have kept myself from good, open, honest discussion of the word that is outside the pastors comfort zone. (not at first... I didn't realize that such a stir could be made for simply discussing things... I have learned better now and walk a wiser path)

If I discussed things with church people as openly as I discuss them here I would probably be hated by the pastor...LOL

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever find a place... an environment... where I can discuss the word freely. A place where I can let the fire that is in my bones burn with all it's ability.

I have found, through these forums, that iron does indeed sharpen iron and open discussion ESPECIALLY with those who disagree with you offers opportunity for growth and further understanding.

It is easy for me to say these things because, at the end of the day, I don't have to deal with the problems.... but, maybe even for good reason, it seems that most pastors keep their people at a certain level of studious numbness.

The word says that God is not the author of confusion. It never said there wouldn't be confusion... it just said that God isn't the author.

When open study takes place there is sometimes confusion among people who have held traditions for so long... but when a house is cleaned that hasn't been cleaned in a while dust is stirred up.

Some mark the discussion as the source of confusion when, IMO, it is the old unfounded "truths" that are kicking up the dust and making everyone wheeze.

Anyway... I ramble... I want to express my appreciation for your open and honest commentary. I am always humbled by a man who has it within himself to be honest and open.

I pray God's leading and blessing on all of your work in His fabulous kingdom.