100% tithe receiving pastors and the IRS - DANGEROUS
 

From what I have studied and know a little about tax law, pastors who believe that they should receive ALL the tithes from their churches are in a dangerous situation. If they indeed, receive ALL of the tithes, no matter how much or how little it was or what it was spent on, they are liable for the taxes due on the entire amount.

If those who believe they should receive all the tithes want to be consistent, honest and forthright, they should file their taxes with the entire amount as income. Failure to do so will be considered tax evasion and fraud.

So, feeling lucky today...punk?

How much of a chance are you willing to take? :D

BTW, to keep some of you out of jail, this poll is private! :D

If you can't get an "amen" ... get an "ouch".

:killinme:killinme:killinme

What are they supposed to pay tax on otherwise (if the scenario is different from what you stated in the opening post)?

I don't know anything about preacher taxes.

Aren't you a preacher?

They are supposed to pay taxes on what they RECEIVE. If a pastor receives ALL of the tithes in say a 500 family church, with the average family tithing $5k, that would be, 2.5 million $$.

My point is that VERY, VERY few pastors, if any, who believe in receiving ALL the church's tithes, report it and pay taxes on it. They are lying and deceiving.

If they believe it, that is fine. Just be consistent and claim it and pay taxes on it.

They are to first to quote Jesus' words ... to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's ... and to God ... what is God's.

SHOW US THE LAW!

:choir

Now there's a good idea. Preacher taxes. The preacher gets taxed $500 for every minute he preaches past an hour! :killinme $1000/minute on weeknights! :grumpy :ranting :boxing :club :drawguns :smack :Nhl_check

This is a difficult situation. The Fair Tax, as proposed by Neal Boortz, would solve these dilemmas. Meanwhile, while we are waiting for the tax code to change ( :nah :IAM ), the answer is education. Those who resist it up front will get the more expensive sort before long. This is just one more benefit of an organization! :razz

While I support the concept of the preacher taking all the tithe, it ought to be channelled through the church books and paid as a salary to simplify the legal risks. Realistically, churches can't afford to pay the entire sum designated as tithe to the pastor and still keep the lights on and the doors open, so it ends up being a percentage or a fixed number.

This is exactly what some have been trying to say.

But if those who believe that it REALLY should go to the pastor, then it's just "tough noogies" for the church!! They'll just have to cough up some more money to pay the bills!

Strong words.

How do YOU know?

I'd be willing to accept what you are saying if you told me how many churches and/or pastors make you privy of their finances, and then what number of those behave as you say they do.

It's sort of a "trust, but verify" thing. It's just a question. It's not an attack. I only attack people I know. . . .

I do know of one pastor specifically that does take all the tithes. It's a small church.

Firstly I am NOT a cheat NOR a liar and resent that neither am I a hireling that is afraid of my shadow. But to set the record straight the tithe belongs to me that does NOT mean I take them all. I set my salary and pay taxes on that amount and I am set up according to IRS laws. NO church board designates my salary I do that however the trustees do know what I am paid and my living expenses. IF the board sets my salary then I am their employee I am NOT their employee GOD alone is my employer. The Holy Ghost makes overseers in the church NOT some church board. Muzzle NOT the ox Paul said a preacher who salary is set by a church board is muzzled. The ox is free to eat unmuzzled and if he eats too much he pays for it. That is THE BOOK. The levites lived of things of the Temple(the tithing chamber) and levites oversaw it NOT laymen. Most Pentecostal churches have an Eliashibib who is afraid of his shadow for a pastor and Tobiah is dolling out the salary. But A real MAN of God THREW him out and put the levites back in control. Neh. 13 read it and weep!

Yes, but I don't take any tithes or salary.

It's one thing to declare the ideal situation, where every wage-earning family contributes 15% or more of their gross income, 10% tithe going to the pastor and 5% offering to run the church and everything else. It's another story when a pastor has to decide whether to cash his check or keep the pipes from freezing in the church.

Pessimists and Realists are simply Optimists and Idealists with experience. We need a "smirk" smiley for when I say things like this.

sorry, i skewed the poll. Im not a pastor.

but I still think the IRS can go pound sand. (I really do pay all my taxes)

There are NO LEVITES TODAY ....

Wow. You pastor your church for free? I don't think you've ever mentioned that before, Brother.

No but it was Paul who used the principle in 1Cor.9:7-14
Verse 14 says EVEN SO or in the same manner. What manner verse 8
".....they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple..."
That was the tithing chamber.
GOD ORDAINED THAT so Paul said. Dan I like you but you don't have the status of Paul I hope that doesn't offend you.:winkgrin

No attack taken. I have been around apostolic churches a LONG time and the vast majority of pastors I know "control" the entire tithing account. If they control it, the IRS considers it to be income. I haven't taken a poll on pastors, but my statement is based upon my experience. I would be willing to have others state the contrary, but I'm not sure they can.

Sure there are. Ronzo met one. His name is Levi.

I agree that this is the way things ought to be done.

However, you are a jewel among men. Others have taken this same position, and then absconded with everything, leaving the church to collapse in on itself. That is the reason that you have boards setting the pay most places. Congregations of every faith have been burned many times this way.

I have observed several pastors who were technically on the books as hirelings behave as just as boldly as you claim you are free to do. Those shackles are in the mind. If the preacher is true, and the board is out of God's will, the preacher is done a favor, frankly, if he is asked to move on.

Your congregation has come to know, love and trust you. What will the procedure be with your replacement, when that time comes?

Seth is a great guy. He works it is a small family oriented church a very old church one of the oldest congregations in Southern Indiana out in the boon docks. He is a faithful young man.

NO sir you again are incorrect controlling the tithe does NOT make it taxable ONLY what you recieve personally. A tax professional set our up along with about 300 churches. He goes to the IRS clinics every year for the new changes. Your info is flawed.

and once again Paul throughout the epistles describes new covenant giving ... and never once gives instructions about tithing to the new converts born and raised in pagan tradition ....

He gives advice on almost every human and spiritual interaction ... from marriage to medicinal advice to Timothy [which by the way, include consumption of alcohol] ... It would seem to behoove Paul to teach these babes in the Lord ... on the Law of Circumcision ... no????

This indeed is a conundrum ... when my Dad died after pastoring that particular congregation ... a system had to be in place ... folks, understandably, won't simply trust the new pastor in the same manner.

True claiming to be a pastor does not guarantee character. I too have witnessed abuses by charlatans but also by church boards who fired the preacher when he touched their families. God hired me and he fires me not a church board. However I do have elders in my life I would willingly submit to.

How about the passage I cited??? Then Heb. 7?

Dan do you believe in instrumental music in church services?????? And yes it is a trick question.

Elder, that has been the "sticky" point. If the pastor has sole and only control of the tithing account and uses that account to pay himself, his expenses, living and otherwise, it is considered "received" by him even if he pays church expenses as well.

If that is NOT the case, then the IRS has changed their rulings, which I don't believe is the case. If the pastor is paid, receives a check from the tithing account, and does NOT have SOLE control, the total amount in the account is NOT considered received.

There's lots of things I've never said before. :sshhh :winkgrin


That's actually the atmosphere under which I was raised. My pastor didn't take tithes or salary, and his father - the pastor before him, didn't either.

They never preached against doing it, they just didn't do it. I have heard some people speak negatively of it though (negatively of preachers taking the tithes and such that is).

I kind of come from the other side of the tracks from most people on such issues. lol

Those in my sphere of early influence also generally opposed fundraising - anti-peanut brittle. :eek:

Anyone knowing the IRS WORDING is everything. Our wording is correct and in accordance to all IRS codes my accountant makes sure of it. But I am in control though I do not take them all if I took them all then I would pay on them I don't want to go to Hell or jail.:winkgrin

I know the answer ... the difference being that instruments were not mandated as part of the Mosaic law ... in the strictest sense ... they pre-date the Law ... the same law ....often used by preachers to teach tithing but will not apply the principles for the its distribution and accountability...

Keep in mind there are a slew of Mosaic laws, we could list them for you, and I don't mean dietary ones, that are never re-addressed in the NT ... BUT you would NOT expect your saints to practice them ... today ... even because they are not "done away with" specifically in the NT.

New Testament giving is addressed throughout the epistles.

God also promised the restoration of the tabernacle of David which included worship w/ instruments ... there are also trumpets found in Revelation.

What do some of you pastors have against church boards? It is my understanding that the pastor gets to recommend new church board members to the congregation for approval.

If you've been pastor at a church for a while, and are having problems with the board, it's your own fault for recommending bad people.

I would think that most board members would want their pastor to be well compensated according to the church budget.

Finally, a church board is formed for sound business decisions. A board should consist of members who know how to operate a business. They should not be making spiritual decisions.

heb 7 doesn't prove tithes, that's not even the purpose of the chapter.

JESUS WAS FROM THE TRIBE JUDAH!!!! ONLY LEVITES COULD LAWFULY TAKE TITHES!!

Bro, you are a good case in point. You have taken this seriously, as have I, and gotten help to get things set up in order and legally. Wording is everything and I well understand that. More would do well to take your example to heart. Like you, I don't want to go to either place as well. My house is in order. Our accountant is an enrolled agent with the IRS, so we're in good shape as well.

Churches need to be in order. I predict the IRS will come after church in near future for more revenue.

Biblical eldership would even be better.

I have told out church board that I want them to protect me and make sure that I do things according to our by laws. I trust them and they trust me. I receive a salary and have for a LONG time. No one has ever tried to control me in any way whatsoever. It all comes down to trust the freedom of information and just how much one serves the people.

That is a very honorable thing you are doing, Brother. My hat is off to you. You are the first apostolic pastor I have heard who pastors without taking a salary.

Our church also has a board of Elders that help make spiritual decisions.