Do you believe in modesty
 

To read some of the "arguments" (for lack of a better word and one that won't get me in trouble", one might be led to believe some where don't believe in modesty at all.

Should we dress and act modestly? And if so, how do you go about deciding what is modest and what is not?

I think the denominal world has a pretty good handle on modesty. They don't stigmatize normal behavior, and thus remove the adrenalin rush that comes with doing normal every day things in our Western culture.

What, does the church actually believe that by regulating morality they are keeping men from sin?

Don't think so.

Since I don't have a clue what you just wrote I am going to have to ask some questions.

What is denominal world? How do they have a handle on modesty and how do you know? What is normal behavior and is it biblically sanctioned? Fornication is normal behavior for some.

How does not stigmatizing normal behavior remove an adrenalin ruhs that comes with doing normal everyday things? What normal every day things usually generate an adrenalin rush in your estimation?

Do you or do you not believe in modesty? By your answer its' hard to tell, particularly the last one. That's like saying the church can't prevent sin by preaching against sin....

Here ya go. Going to a movie. I have gone to movies with Apostolic people and they are so nervous, they are looking around, they feel like they are doing something adventerous full of danger, because if someone from the church would see them! Oh Indiana Jones look out!
:killinme

OH, so you are not Apostolic? Im still not sure how that pertains to the topic of modesty or your adrenaline rush theory or even how that is normal behavior.

Because of this stigma, our kids can't make the determination between what is sin and what is normal behavior. And I am not talking about your polarized statement that IMMORALITY to some is considered normal behavior in mainstream religion.

Because of the stigma (is that the right word?!?!) of being told not to go to movies they can't make the determination between what is sin and what is normal behavior?!?! And how does that pertain to modesty? BTW you only said "normal behavior" as I said before I did not have a clue what you were tryiing to say and needed to ask you some questions. Perhaps you can be clearer next time and less cryptic. How am I supposed to know what you meant by normal behavior? Was I supposed to read your mind?

BTW do you or anyone else actually have something to say on THIS topic instead of trying to change it to something else?

Coming from you this statement is HILARIOUS!!!!

See what I mean? The topic Daniel, Do you have anything productive to say about the topic or is this the best you can do? Seems par the course for you.

Who is arguing against modesty? Some of us just believe that modesty is the same for men and women and not a double-standard.

Great, and because men have more stuff below the waist and wearing pants would show that off, according to you, you suggest men and women should wear robes in order to be modest? :slaphappy

I believe in modesty with all my heart. I know when I put something on whether it would please the Lord or not. If it wouldn't, I don't wear it. The Holy Ghost in me tells me what's right and wrong.

BTW I am glad to hear you believe in modesty. I would like to see that others do to and what modesty is and how we come to a determination of what modesty is. BTW do you believe in a distinction of the sexes in dress?

Can you elaborate on that more? Do you mean that the only standard you have by which to determine what is modest or not is the Holy Ghost tells you? Is there any thought process that goes on in your thinking that is colored by what the bible says?

Care to chase a red herring anyone???

Yes, I believe in modesty very much so.

How to decide?

1. Let the Holy Spirit guide you
2. be discreet, chaste, temperate, display shamefacedness and sobriety.

Well, the Holy Ghost won't contradict the Bible!! I don't wear anything low cut, strappy, very short, etc. I just think some things are not modest and I don't feel right in them.

BTW a red herring argument is where you are in a debate with someone on a topic and a person, rather than addressing his opponents argument, redirects the discussion elsewhere to something that has nothing to do with the opponents argument.

Now, where and when does the word of God come in play? If it's the HOly Spirit, should we not then we all have the same standard for modesty?

The Holy Ghost won't contradict the bible, but in my experience I have met thousands of people that all claim the Spirit is leading them and yet they all come to different conclusions. My conclusion is that I don't believe every one of them was really led by the Spirit.

The word was inspired by the Spirit so part of being led BY the Spirit is also being led by the word.

Im really glad for what you say here, however I was hoping we could all come to a conclusion based on more than feeling something is not right. The reason is that we will have many that say they feel something different. We have people that feel God is telling them they don't need a church or a pastor and others feel differently.

I need to wipe the coffee off my screen. Dude you don’t get out much do you?

I work in a secular job. I work in a white collar environment. I work with guys all day that make comments about what one lady or another is wearing. This idea that Apostolics get hot under the collar because we "aren’t used" to seeing women wearing pants is just STUPID.

It is very insulting to say the least. The very idea that either the denominal world (what ever that is) or secular business world has a handle on "modesty" and should be the Modal we Apostlics use is just wrong, inane, asinine. Do I need to continue??

Prax, I am confused (wouldn't be the first time), but I just can't figure out where you came up with this notion that folks here "don't believe in modesty at all." :confused:

Yes, I do believe in a distinction between the sexes, and my primary argument about women wearing pants is BASED on that. Both men and women wore robes in the bible. I assume that they were cut differently for men as for women, otherwise that means that THEY did not practice distinction between the sexes. Both men and women now wear trousers, and they are cut differently for men than for women.

Well, I guess I just believe that if I'm filled with the Spirit, He will guide me into all truth.

Also red herrings ... in mystery literature and movies are devices to distract the reader from the real suspect or issue at hand ...

Wiki:
In literature, a red herring is a plot device intended to distract the reader from a more important event in the plot, usually a twist ending.
The term "red herring" originates from the tradition whereby young hunting dogs in Britain were trained to follow a scent with the use of a "red" (salted and smoked) herring (see kipper). This pungent fish would be dragged across a trail until the puppy learned to follow the scent. Later, when the dog was being trained to follow the faint odor of a fox or a badger, the trainer would drag a red herring (which has a much stronger odor) across the animal's trail at right angles. The dog would eventually learn to follow the original scent rather than the stronger scent.


In literature, the most commonplace use of a "red herring" is in mystery fiction. One particular character is described or emphasized in a way that seems to throw suspicion upon that character as the person who committed the crime: later, it develops that someone else is the guilty party.

I didn't say "folks here don't believe in modesty at all". I said to hear some of their arguments one MIGHT be led to believe that. And so here is an opportunity for everyone to say YES I believe in modesty for a change instead of trying to tear down someone elses notion of modesty

That is what we all hope and expect, but apparently we don't all come to the same conclusions.

In the first place Prax, when I got the Holy Ghost, one of the first things God told me to do was to put some clothes on...and I mean in a way that went far beyond what the world calls "normal". So I think that is our first "stop" on the road to clarifying this issue...when you feel self-conscious or get that "under-dressed" feeling, that's probably the spirit of God telling you you don't have enought clothes on (I'm saying "you" in a general sense...not you, personally). My wife, as a new convert, went through this...going to a church gathering and tugging at her sleeves and such...feeling like she was too exposed. I've heard of quite a few people experiencing this awareness of a need for modesty soon after conversion. Of course, this goes totally against what the world calls "normal". Going swimming in mixed company with bathing suits on is no problem for the world. They could go out and mow the lawn in shorts and a tank-top (or no shirt at all) and think that's just fine...but that's what regeneration does for you...the grace of God in your heart teaches you to live soberly, righteously and godly.

Our second "stop" is the word of God. The Bible indicates that exposing one's thigh is nakedness, and this is from ancient times. Even the Old Testament priests had to wear undergarments that extended from the loins to the thighs to prevent someone from seeing up their garments. We'll let the record reflect that the lower part of the legs and the feet didn't seem to be a concern, but above the knee most definitely was. This gives us a feel for what the Biblically sound position would entail.

Finally, the word of God says to "ask for the old paths", and that the younger should submit to the elder, so WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE ABOVE, let's look at what Holy Ghost-filled, anointed people of God have felt that God has written on their hearts, and have preached with authority. Holiness-minded people (myself included) have almost universally recognized that taking off one's shirt is nudity, and through the witness of the Holy Ghost, we've had the law of God written in our hearts agreeing with the Bible that exposing the thigh is nakedness. So that is where parameters have come from such as having skirts come past the knees, etc. I know that this doesn't answer EVERY modesty question, but it's a good start.

Taking into account "the Big Three"...how does it square with the Holy Ghost, how does it line-up to the Bible, and what does the consensus of our elders seem to be, goes far beyond modesty issues...there is great safety in this for all kinds of issues! God has been good to his church, giving us his Spirit, his word, and the ministry for the perfection of the saints.

Troy

I don't know how different they were, but I have heard that they were different. However I think it was more than just the cut.

I have a question. What determined the differences in the bible? Was it the external cultural trends of pagan and hebrew society (when they were not influenced by the pagan cultures)?

Yes... and now the cultural trend is that it is okay for women to wear pants... except for the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000001 percent of the population that is Pentecostal and think that only whores wear them.

Thanks, however it seems that many who claim to have the Holy Ghost don't all agree and I am not merely speaking of here. I mean Christianity in general. I have seen many women claiming to be led of the Spirit wear low cut tops and to church of all places and bend over to pray for someone else. Yet we have some Christian women here (Sherri) that confesses she is led to NOT dress that way, for which I am glad and I admire she is led to that conclusion.

One last thing. I remember once during a revival we had a young lady there that was the sister of a member. She came during a revival and the power of God was very strong in that service. I remember her almost running to the alter afterwards and the whole time she was tugging on her very short skirt to make it lower than what it was. She seemed convicted by the Spirit.

I am wondering based on what you said and Sherri and others if perhaps we are not all influenced this way by the Spirit but some of us might be ignoring what the Spirit is saying to us and instead going by our own flesh and saying THAT is the Spirit speaking to us.

I remember hearing Tammi Faye Baker saying God told her that her makeup was ok. Not to make an issue of makeup being a sin or anything...whether it is or isn't I seriously doubt God is going to tell someone her makeup is ok...that just seems out of character

Is this the world you're writing about?

denominal

Main Entry:
de·nom·i·nal Pronunciation: \dē-ˈnä-mə-nəl\ Function: adjective Date: 1959 : derived from a noun

Yes, that doesn't really address my question though. You raised the issue of bible, how they dressed and I asked what influenced them. What you did was state the obvious about OUR current culture, which is not a biblical culture but a secular one.

We were talking about "in the bible" referring specifically to the Hebrews. Was their distinction in dress influence by God somehow or by culture? Pagan? Secular? Get my point? How did THEY come to their conclusion about distinction and modesty?

Sorry...that was the conclusion I drew from your post...my mistake.

That being said, even from the argunents of some, I never thought that.

I have. There is so much attacking going on about what others see as modest that it's hard not to wonder.

I would say their dress in biblical times was influenced by God AND culture... just like today. At some point people switched from robes to dresses for women and from robes to trousers on men.

I will not wear anything that shows off my body in a sexual way.

Praxeas, please define modesty.

I think most Oneness Pentecostals view modesty as abstinence. While this may be true with some issues, I don't believe it applies to all of them. Usually abstinence from movies, television, and a host of other issues is justified with the logic "I would rather be safe than sorry".

That sort of logic is fine as long as it is not mandated as a prerequisite for salvation.

My question is this: Is modesty abstinence, moderation or something else entirely?

You mean you wear those skirts with the hoops in them so no one can see your hips?

Well that is really MY question. What is modesty? How can we attack someone elses idea of modesty if we don't have some rule for which we define it?

Modesty, as pertains to this thread, is really about dress, not going to the movies

But here are some dictionary defs
–noun, plural -ties. 1.the quality of being modest; freedom from vanity, boastfulness, etc. 2.regard for decency of behavior, speech, dress, etc. 3.simplicity; moderation.

modesty
1531, "freedom from exaggeration, self-control," from M.Fr. modestie, from L. modestia "moderation," from modestus "moderate, keeping measure, sober," from modus "measure, manner" (see mode (1)). Meaning "having a moderate opinion of oneself" is from 1553. Modest (adj.) is first recorded 1565.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source
modesty

noun
1. freedom from vanity or conceit [ant: immodesty]
2. formality and propriety of manner

Modest
mod·est (mŏd'ĭst) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Having or showing a moderate estimation of one's own talents, abilities, and value.
2. Having or proceeding from a disinclination to call attention to oneself; retiring or diffident. See Synonyms at shy1.
3. Observing conventional proprieties in speech, behavior, or dress.
4. Free from showiness or ostentation; unpretentious. See Synonyms at plain.
5. Moderate or limited in size, quantity, or range; not extreme: a modest price; a newspaper with a modest circulation.

I would say Modesty is moderation. I will go to the movies but only to see G or maybe a PG depending on what the reviews said. I will wear make up but only a small amount to cover pimples.