Just for Bro. Steve, "ALL TRINITARIANS ARE NOT LOST"
 

:killinme

Trying to recreate the atomphere of FCF!

And O, BTW "endless torment" came from the tormented minds of pagans and the apostate Rome church.

Jesus is the Savior of the whole world, and He will complete all He has purposed.


:killinme:killinme:killinme:killinme

I don't know that I am the "Bro Steve" in reference... but the title simply states the obvoius. (I rather think it is Steve Epley!)

The other statements are not something that I have conversed much about in the past.

prove "endless torment" came from the minds of pagans and apostate Rome Church.. I hope next you won't be arguing the virgin birth came from Mithra

Amazing that someone could "know" Jesus, yet not "know" him.

Lost as 2 boys kissing.

ENDLESS PUNISHMENT OF HEATHEN ORIGIN (Greek mythology)

When the doctrine of endless punishment began to be taught in the Christian Church, it was not derived from the Scriptures, but from the heathen converts to Christianity, who accepted Christ, but who brought with them into their new church that doctrine which had for centuries been taught in heathen lands, but which neither Moses nor Christ accepted. And having received the idea from heathen tradition, it was natural that the early Christians should transfer it to the Bible, and seek to find it there.

That heathen invented this doctrine is undeniable. Much of the Christian understanding of Hell has more to do with Greek mythology than anything from the Bible.

Says Cicero" "It was on this account that the ancients invented those infernal punishments of the dead, to keep the wicked under some awe in this life, who without them, would have no dread of death itself."

Says Polis, the Greek historian: "The multitude is ever fickle and capricious, full of lawless passions and irrational and violent resentments. There is no way left to keep them in order but by the terrors of future punishment, and all the pompous circumstances that attend such fiction! On which account the ancients acted, in my opinion, with great judgment and penetration, when they contrived to bring those notions of the gods and a future state into the popular belief."

Strabo, the Greek geographer and philosopher, says: "it is impossible to govern women and the gross body of the people, and to keep them pious, holy and virtuous, by the precepts of philosophy. This can only be done by the fear of the gods, which is raised and supported by ancient fictions and modern prodigies." And again he says: "The apparatus of the ancient mythologies was an engine which the legislators employed as bugbears to strike a terror into the childish imagination of the multitude."

This horrible heathen dogma sought entrance into the Christian church in vain for the first three centuries after Christ, and though here and there a euthanized Christian announced it, it did not become an accredited Christian doctrine till after more than five centuries. Dr. Edward Beecher candidly confesses that as late as three hundred years after Christ it had hardly obtained a foothold.

He says: "What, then, was the state of facts as to the leading theological schools of the Christian world in the age of Origin and some centuries after? It was, in brief, this: There were at least six theological schools in the church at large. Of these six schools, one, and only one, was decidedly and earnestly in favor of the doctrine of future eternal punishment. One was in favor of the annihilation of the wicked. Two were in favor of the doctrine of universal restoration on the principles of Origen, and two in favor of universal restoration on the principles of Theodore of Mopsuestia."
That is to say, here were four times as many Universalist theological schools, where clergymen were educated, as there were schools in which endless punishment was taught, even as late as A. D. 300. But from that time onward, as darkness increased, the heathen idea was more and more transferred to the sacred page, till it entirely overlaid and obscured the truth. and it was not until the light of the Reformation began to dawn that the profane inscriptions of heathen tradition were erased from the palimpsest of the Scriptures, so that the meaning of the inspired authors could be apprehended. (JW Hanson)

The voice of some that were closer to the time of the early church speak from the grave.

Prove? That is not my objective, rather to stir up discussion and consideration. However there does appear to be good evidence of the doctrine of UR, in the first thru the fifth century, but now obscured by apostasy.

Bro. Matt, I was raised as UC as any on this forum, yet I have met and have come to know many "trinitarians" that have personal relationship with the Lord, and I would say know Jesus as profoundly and deeply as any OP I have ever known. We are all lacking in understanding in some areas, their lack just happens to be in an area of which our tradition has no tolerance. Well, I for one have found much grace and tolerance for them, for I know that I have lack as well.

I don't agree completely with alot of Christians, yet if they name the name of Christ and hold the scriptures sacred I have no problem extending the hand of fellowship. If God choose to use me for their growth, so be it, but I will not have an agenda first. I have learned a great deal from Christians of different doctrinal positions, I love them, fellowship and study the word with them, and the Holy Spirit is doing His work on us all.

As I do on this forum, I am not trying to be divisive, just interacting with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Thanks for your responses and kindness to my posts.

As usual you never disappoint brother.:killinme:killinme

It was an open invitation, and yes the title is the obvious for some of us, yet not for many. This thread was prompted by Bro. Epley's "I miss FCF thread, thought this thread would make him feel better."

Thanks for your response, I respect your family's courage on the TV program, well done and with class.

Thanx CJ!

I'm offended that you'd use my name in that context.

Perhaps, "As heavenly-deprived as two boys kissing".

I have to affirm the highlighted portion of your post. This has been my experience as well. I have personal friends in the ministry who walk in the anointing and have very fruitful ministries although they don't share my doctrinal position on the Godhead. It's great that God is the One in control of a person's destiny and not us, eh?

TB the Gospels reflect this attitude in our Lord. It is amazing to me how glaringly lacking is an attitude of condemnation in Jesus toward those that are in need of Him and seeking after Him. And how glaringly obvious is His attitude of correction toward the religious leaders of His day, these facts alone should bring correction and redirection in believers today.

Thanks for your post.

But my friend, will just having a personal relationshiop with the Lord save the trinitarian? Shouldn't they be baptized in Jesus' Name and filled with the Holyghost, evidenced by speaking in another tongue? Shouldn't they know that there is only ONE God and not another? I believe the Almighty will hold us all accountable....and save us accordingly.

They have identified with Christ in baptism and are filled with the Holy Ghost with the initial SIGN of speaking in tongues (plus they have the evidence of a Spirit-filled life which is the fruit of the Spirit) and they believe in ONE God. It's dishonest OP's who accuse them of believing in three gods.

*Gasp* I guess you aint giving out holy kisses? :hypercoffee

What many OP don't understand is that knowing God in not a formula nor a three step program but rather is a progressive maturing and walking in knowledge and relationship with the Lord. Many know there is one God, yet don't know Him, only about Him.

I said you agreed with Crajak and got my hide tanned. "Who then can be lost?" should have been the question? Interesting.

I don't know what Crakjak believes. All I know is that God is God not SE and He has chosen to transform lives and fill them with the Holy Ghost and give them powerful ministries that are setting people free from their sins. If you choose to attribute this work of the Spirit to Satan that's your decision. I just wouldn't want to be you standing before God someday.

When the Creator of the universe is the "Great Shepherd" looking for them, yes, 'Who then can be lost?" However, TB has never to my knowledge embraced UR.

"...who then will say, "Know the Lord, ...for all shall know Him, from the least to the greatest." "...and the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth, as the waters covers the seas."

Jesus said "Ye MUST be born again" not me. These folks have not have their sins remitted thus they will die in their sins. Do I doubt some have had an experience of some type? No. The disciples got a 'Bethany blessing' but went on to get a Jerusalem experience. Some folks mistake a blessing or a touch for the new birth experience. ONLY the message preached and obeyed at Pentecost will save.
I believe there are sincere Catholics who confess to the priest and pray to Mary. And sincere JW's who think Jesus is a demi-god and are attempting to become the 144,000. And Mormons who have worn the water out being baptized proxy for their dead relatives. But are NOT saved.

Because you have a distorted view of what it means to be "born again" doesn't alter the authenticity of someone else's experience and relationship with God.

There are also sincere UC's who are sincerely WRONG! If someone is speaking against the Holy Ghost, being sincerely wrong is probably the best hope they have of being forgiven when they stand before God someday.

Don't lose any sleep over it I certainly won't. Folks who genuinely recieve the HGB will either follow it into truth or reject truth and be lost or did not really recieve it.

You mean reject YOUR truth, not THE truth. You deny the truth every time you reject the work of the Holy Ghost in the lives of millions of faithful and committed Christians all over the world. No one is going to be lost because they disagree with your interpretation of Scripture SE. I know it's heady stuff feeling that one has a position that allows him to condemn the rest of the Christian community to hell, and would not be consistent with most UC's self-righteous attitude to concede that God hasn't made them the depository of truth in the 21st Century.

AMEN Elder

You preach the ONLY saving message there is.

Anyone who is not baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sin is LOST.

Christian Community includes RCC??? JW's?? MOrmons??? Moonies?? Anglicans?? Greek Orthodox?? Universalism???

"If our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost."

Christian Community for me, includes all who have come to God as sinners and been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Who, having been convicted by the Spirit, have repented of their sins and truly experienced a transformed life that has resulted in walking by faith with the Lord and the evidence of a Spirit-filled life.

All one has to do is get out into the Christian Community instead of being closeted in an Apostolic Church somewhere to see that those who deny the genuine relationship other Christian believers have with Jesus Christ, are willfully blind. Sorry, but I choose to walk in the light and rejoice in the changed lives of those who have passed from darkness into His marvelous light.

Good post TB.

A Christian without the message of the Apostles??????????

Without the new birth????????? Sir you believe in salvation by works instead of grace. Grace was the message preached at Pentecost.

I know it must frustrate you that there are millions of people who know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Lord and have the righteous fruit of a Spirit-filled life that bears witness to the authenticity of that relationship, yet they don't embrace your "truth".

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Mt. 7:18)

I am certainly NOT frustrated just don't believe anyone is saved without obeying the Gospel.

I have a difficult time embracing your concept of God. According to your views God is only interested in saving a few thousand UC's to whom He has gracefully granted a revelation of truth. For 2000 years God has withheld the truth from those who sincerely desired a relationship with Him. This continues today with millions of sincere believers, who placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, left in a state of deception with millions living an entire lifetime in what they thought was a relationship with Jesus Christ, even laying down their lives for Him. Yet, to their surprise they will end up in hell although they had committed their lives totally to serving Jesus Christ.

It is apparent that according to this concept the Holy Ghost is not able to do what Jesus said He would do as One who would lead and guide the believer into all truth. Instead, when people come to Jesus Christ asking for forgiveness, not only do they not receive forgiveness of sins, they receive a spirit of deception that keeps them throughout their lifetime convinced of a relationship with Jesus Christ that doesn't even exist. The spiritual transformation of what they believed was a conversion experience was actually cruel hoax.

It is my position that if the Spirit is not leading 99% of the people who respond to the gospel (Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) to a knowledge of the truth as someone defines truth, it may be that that person needs to re-examine their understanding of truth.

I just don't believe God is the impotent Being you present. Neither do I believe He would allow the mass deception of honest and sincere believers as you purport. You may be sincere in your concept of truth, but I believe you are sincerely wrong! So, be willfully blind of what the Spirit is doing in the lives of millions of lives, attribute it to the work of Satan, and hope you will be forgiven at the judgment because you were sincere.

Man, you have a gift of presenting things as they are and bringing perspective...UC's who think this way are, indeed, saying that about God's transformational power.

How can anyone preach a dry-eyed sermon of hell-fire? Inconceivable!

Fire fall down on us we pray.....let me hear it.
As we seek
Show me Your heart
Show me Your way
Show me Your glory

It is so refreshing to have Elder TB speak the truth of the work of the Holy Spirit...the mellifluous sound of fresh water, fresh wind, fresh fire...

Ahhhhh...“How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!” (Romans 10)


http://bibletalkcafe.com/forum/index...12;type=avatar

Sincere but blind and if the blind lead the blind BOTH shall fall into the ditch.
The scripture says the WHOLE WORLD will wonder after the beast. Also ONLY the VERY Elect will not be decieved. Few there be that find it. Hell hath enlarged herself. Just for a reality check.

The gospel is truly "Good News", the traditons of men are the worst kind of news.


1Tim 4:10
"...for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing." YLT

I was replying to TB's assertion. I am concerned about folks going to Hell which includes Moslems-Hindus-Athiests-Buddists-all false religions.

ONE LORD-ONE FAITH-ONE BAPTISM.

TrulyBlessed: thanks for this post. I have spoken with SOME that I believe to be more than sincerley wrong.

Some are just ignorantly wrong on this subject and willfully keep their eyes glued shut.

With some, I fear it is fear of losing their livelyhood, of pastoring, they willfully and knowingly go on "protecting the message" when they know in their heart "their message" falls like a house of cards.

An old song comes to mind while reading these posts..

"One, one, one, one way to God, baptized in Jesus' Name"

The devil (and some of yall too) doesn't like it but there is one way to God! You can "accept the Lord" as your personal Savior from now til he comes and you'll be just as lost as you ever were! What did Peter tell them when they asked what they must do? We all know it very well around here.........