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-   -   A Reverend's Rambling Review of 'Relevance' (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=7005)

Steadfast 08-15-2007 02:09 AM

A Reverend's Rambling Review of 'Relevance'
 
I’m sure every real preacher of the gospel, at some juncture of their life, has those times that certain ‘concerns’ reach up and gently tap on the shoulder of your spiritual man. I’m referring to those times that your eyes say ‘not too bad’ but your heart says ‘something doesn’t ring true’. I’ve had it many times in the past and will most likely have them again.

I realize that in my passionate pursuit to genuinely be a Man of God that I can sometimes be ‘wary’ of things that could potentially lead us in the wrong direction. It was in that moment of ‘wariness’ that I received a correspondence from a young man that I’ve heard many good things about. He expressed some concern about the goals of some prominent young preachers and his concern has lingered in my heart long enough that it has now become my burden. A burden, in fact, that I feel a have to at least address.

Let’s talk about the driving need some feel to be ‘relevant’. Mind you, while I probably preach as many ‘Campmeetings’ as youth camps these days, I still feel quite qualified as someone who has poured out my heart to youth through ministry for some 18 years to address some issues. Please indulge me to make a few points that I feel ‘relevant’.

First of all it’s important to those precious young preachers following behind me to know that every new ‘crop’ of young preachers are going to have their ‘catch phrases’ that can become problematic if taken too far. For instance;
• Has there ever been a youth camp that, at some point, hasn’t had to debated whether that camp was to be a ‘refuge’ from peer pressure or 'evangelistic’ in nature. That was a common ‘catchphrase’ for letting down or ignoring certain campground standards. Good intentions? Perhaps. I saw some good men plead to make them evangelistic at the expense of holiness standards.
• How about when rap first came out and most every choir had at least one rap solo in a song? The ‘catchphrase’ of that generation was that we had to ‘identify’ with them. That carried over into the whole gospel rock scene and their heralding call was that we had to ‘identify’ with their preferences before we could push our preferences on them. Good intentions? Some incredibly sincere people I loved dearly laid down precious things to ‘identify’ and it cost them dearly.

My point in dealing with those ‘catchphrases’ is to note that each new generation has their ‘catchphrase’ and the one I keep hearing bantered about right now is that we have to be ‘relevant’ to this society. It might surprise you to know that I, at least to a point, agree with you. But, again, it’s when those ‘catchphrases’ are taken to extremes that our Pentecostal culture starts to break down. That is what I fear about our newfound desire to be ‘relevant’; being relevant to our society at some point means forcing our Pentecostal culture of holiness to fit into a mold it was never designed for.

Let me illustrate for a moment. For over a year after the hurricane destroyed my sanctuary we had midweek services in ‘casual’ dress. Jeans, khakis and such were almost necessary because we had to ‘put out’ and ‘put up’ the sanctuary furniture each and every night. We had good Church with the exception of those few random nights when their ‘casual dress’ ushered in a ‘casual mentality’ about worship. Overall, it was easy to overcome and have real Church.

Likewise, I’ve heard much lately about ‘shirt tail out, jeans and jacket’ Church. I'll be the first to tell you that it probably won't hurt them anymore than it hurt us. But why do it if it's not necessary? It’s our pursuit to be ‘relevant’. Is it wrong? That is for that particular Pastor to decide.

What about our newfound infatuation with ‘acoustic worship’? Or what about the four piece bands with driving guitars? Where did it come from? We have to be ‘relevant’.

Ironically, my issue isn’t so much with any of those things. My issue, the sincere issue at the bottom of my heart, is the screaming question, “Why is the Body of Christ being driven to be ‘relevant’ to an ungodly society?” I’m not against new methods. I’m not against trying new things for various types of outreach. (I complain at my own Church when my worship leader doesn’t change up the services enough!) But where does this pressure come from telling us that we have to find some relevance to a world who, by nature, is an enemy of God?


... to be continued...

Steadfast 08-15-2007 02:10 AM

Who is the real culprit? Some would place the sole blame on the ‘liberal’ minded folks. I disagree. Others would say, “It’s all those holiness standards that are keeping people away.” Again, I disagree. At the risk of making some enemies I have to tell you that I think it’s a unsavory blending of those two factions. The culprit is a gross misunderstanding of real holiness on both sides.

At the risk of making enemies I’m willing to offer my opinion;
• I know some who are so ‘liberal’ that they would cast down all lines of separation from the world in a moment. Some are sincere but, ultimately, they are in error.
• I know some who are ‘holy’ to the extreme on the outward man but their spirit is vile, their demeanor is obnoxious and their attitude is self righteous. Again, they are sincere but just as wrong as the first group.

And herein lies the core of the problem in my opinion; neither understand the true nature of holiness. I’m not talking about cliché’s or yet more ‘catchphrases’ explaining how the ‘other side’ is wrong. I’m talking about knowing that the true nature of holiness…
• Works inside and shows outside.
• Convicts about inward attitudes and outward immodesty.
• Drives you to be more like Jesus and less like sin.

So then when sincere hearted men think of reaching the world you have some that want to ‘reach’ them to dress them right and others that want to ‘reach’ them while resenting the self righteous attitudes of their own brethren.

The end result?
The wholesale purchase of ‘relevance’ to make the Church look better to the world.

And the fault lies directly with both ‘sides’ of the ‘liberal vs. conservative’ mentality! But might I remind you that, in the midst of our ‘relevance’, that God’s Word demanded that we ‘be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds’. Oh that every heart knew the dire importance of this scripture as it pertains this misperceived need to be ‘relevant’ to this present world!

First, God said, “Don’t conform to this world!” We have to stop trying to shove this precious Church, baptized in blood for redemption, into the mold of this world that is anything but redeemed! While I’m not against being ‘relevant’ to a point I’m of the persuasion that our leaders, our ministry and the heart of the Church needs to run back to a ‘renewing’ of our minds; we need to unlearn some things this world is trying to teach us! Chief among them is generations old lie that we must ‘be like them to reach them’.

The answer, in my opinion, is surely two fold;
1. First of all we need strong preachers that are not afraid to hold firm to bible absolutes. We have strong, quality possessing men among us who are sufficient for that task. Among the present group of District Youth Presidents we have are some of the finest men I’ve ever known. They, and others like them, have what it takes!

Don’t buy the lie that you have to be ‘relevant’ to the sacrificing of the very principles that make you Apostolic to begin with! Accept the fact that some are extreme in their views of standards but don’t use it as an excuse to run from what is necessary to be right with God.

Avoid making the critical mistake that far too many are making by refusing to preach passionately about real commitments! I was shocked and saddened by a conversation recently with one of the other speakers in a meeting I was preaching. He said, “I can’t believe that you preach conviction and commitment like you do! I wouldn’t do that in a million years!” When I laughed and asked why he quickly shot back the reply, “Job security! I’m not going to preach anything that doesn’t make them feel good because I want to come back again.” I could only weep and weep even now.

Brother ‘Preacher’, when you cease to preach commitment to the cause of Christ you then cease being Apostolic altogether. This Church was built on commitment to not only the Pearl of Great Price but the field in which it was purchased.

2. The second part of the answer is just as vital as the first. Those who preach a strong standard should endeavor to show the world a ‘proper’ spirit that matches your ‘proper’ attire. Too many of us have stripped the beauty out of holiness in the eyes of the people.

It’s shameful and even sinful to make our ‘holiness’ an offense to lost souls! God called you to be shining examples of ‘life more abundantly’ but far too many times long skirts come with long faces, a good sleeve length comes with a bad temper and uncut hair seems to be a ‘package deal’ with an unruly spirit!

We call them ‘holiness’ standards but is it really holiness if it’s just a church ‘uniform’ instead of an expression of a wholesome, happy life? I’ve come to call it ‘Irresponsible Holiness’ because it becomes a lie easily seen through when our appearance says “Victory!” while our attitude says, “Venom!”

We need a renewing of our minds!

Hold on to separation but hold on with a right attitude!
Preach a strong message but preach it with a tender heart!

Oh that God would restore to all of us the precious truth that the spirit of holiness was given to the Church as the ultimate outreach tool and not mortal to build walls between us! A right spirit and a holy life were designed in the mind of God to draw the world to the ‘beauty of holiness’. That’s not called ‘relevance’… that’s called righteousness.

Relevance wants to make the Church look good to the world;
Our calling is to make righteousness look good to the world!

And it’s an irresponsible holiness to live a standard or reach for the lost without making God’s righteousness look appealing to those who need it the most.

SDG 08-15-2007 05:16 AM

Has NAYC rocked your world too? Good.

Coonskinner 08-15-2007 05:45 AM

Excellent article, Brother White.

You articulated a very serious concern of my own, and did it well.

Thank you.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 06:18 AM

You bring up a lot of good points, Reverend, and I agree with many of them. However, with regards to relevance, I am reminded what Paul said about it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scripture
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (1 Corinthians 9)

So, provided this new method or approach is not breaching any moral codes, it is an effective tool for soul winning.


I am reminded of other passages with regards to all of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scripture
The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12)


I think we can substitute Jew and Gentile below with Con and Lib:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Scripture
But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ. For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. (Ephesians 2)


Coonskinner 08-15-2007 06:25 AM

"Jew and Gentile" are not synonymous with con and lib.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 216318)

2. The second part of the answer is just as vital as the first. Those who preach a strong standard should endeavor to show the world a ‘proper’ spirit that matches your ‘proper’ attire. Too many of us have stripped the beauty out of holiness in the eyes of the people.

It’s shameful and even sinful to make our ‘holiness’ an offense to lost souls! God called you to be shining examples of ‘life more abundantly’ but far too many times long skirts come with long faces, a good sleeve length comes with a bad temper and uncut hair seems to be a ‘package deal’ with an unruly spirit!

We call them ‘holiness’ standards but is it really holiness if it’s just a church ‘uniform’ instead of an expression of a wholesome, happy life? I’ve come to call it ‘Irresponsible Holiness’ because it becomes a lie easily seen through when our appearance says “Victory!” while our attitude says, “Venom!”

We need a renewing of our minds!

Hold on to separation but hold on with a right attitude!
Preach a strong message but preach it with a tender heart!



I thought this was a very honest approach to the matter at hand for so many...I think this matter is what causes a sour taste in the mouth of many libs. From my vantage point, I see so many examples of this dilemma where you see people appearing holy in their outward standards and their attitude not matching up...so what this does is create a holy anger toward the standard that tries to sugar-coat and disguise the true matter to be dealt with. This is how so many libs feel toward standards because the standard serves as a costume. I am sure I would welcome and accept many of these standards (not necessarily for myself, but simply respect someone else's standard) if attitudes matched the standards more...but as it stands now...too many Believers are hiding behind standards to appear "Holy" and yet their conduct says differently. You have nailed it here, Elder....herein lies the crux of the matter.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216348)
"Jew and Gentile" are not synonymous with con and lib.

Is this the same as saying they cannot remain together in the fellowship (con and lib) come GC in Tampa?

Coonskinner 08-15-2007 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Roc (Post 216355)
Is this the same as saying they cannot remain together in the fellowship (con and lib) come GC in Tampa?

I don't have time to get into this in detail today, as I have to be on a plane for a preaching engagement in a little while.

But how in the world did you extrapolate my disagreement with your analogy into a statement like this?

J-Roc 08-15-2007 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216356)
I don't have time to get into this in detail today, as I have to be on a plane for a preaching engagement in a little while.

But how in the world did you extrapolate my disagreement with your analogy into a statement like this?

Very quickly before you take flight (have a safe and pleasant trip), the scripture is talking about uniting Jews and Gentiles...and you wont allow me to substitute with con and lib....as if you are saying they cannot be united....therefore, in the fellowship, they cannot co-exist.

Coonskinner 08-15-2007 06:50 AM

Wrong.

I say that the analogy of Jew/Gentile Conservative/Liberal is not a good analogy.

That's all I was saying.

Please don't insert your agenda into my statement.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216363)
Wrong.

I say that the analogy of Jew/Gentile Conservative/Liberal is not a good analogy.

That's all I was saying.

Please don't insert your agenda into my statement.


So, in your estimation, can Cons and Libs be united as I have suggested with the scripture?...my agenda is not to cause disunity if that is what you are suggesting (why would I use that scripture if that were so)...quite contrary, I am saying they can co-exist and unite and your objection seemed to think differently.

It would be interesting to see if you would address my question. I won't hold my breath...

Coonskinner 08-15-2007 07:18 AM

It depends on your definition of lib.

There are certain parameters outside of which I cannot fellowship.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216376)
It depends on your definition of lib.

There are certain parameters outside of which I cannot fellowship.

My definition of libs or cons is the licensed ministers of the UPCI...can these licensed ministers truly co-exist?

J-Roc 08-15-2007 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216376)
It depends on your definition of lib.

There are certain parameters outside of which I cannot fellowship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Roc (Post 216380)
My definition of libs or cons is the licensed ministers of the UPCI...can these licensed ministers truly co-exist?

I have my hallucinations of what you think...either openly confirm them or take the opportunity to prove my hallucinations wrong.

Sherri 08-15-2007 08:22 AM

Good article, Steadfast. Although we don't agree, I'm sure, on what constitutes outward holiness, we agree that inward holiness is of utmost importance and that it will manifest on the outside. Everyone has to be open to the convictions from the Holy Ghost that will change them and make them like Him.

I do believe in being relevant to a generation, but not necessarily relevant to the world, in the sense of "worldliness" or sin. I think there's a difference. We serve Starbuck's, come fairly casual, have a hot worship band (put awesome praise & worship), etc. etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with making people feel at home when they get here. If they feel accepted when they walk in, they will listen to the life changing message of the gospel. It's worked for us!

Steve Epley 08-15-2007 08:29 AM

The gulf is becoming wider and wider.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 216426)
The gulf is becoming wider and wider.


Please elaborate on this comment, Elder. :tiphat

Steve Epley 08-15-2007 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Roc (Post 216441)
Please elaborate on this comment, Elder. :tiphat

I am so out of step with Contemporary Pentecost. When I visit their meetings from the music to the message I am out of touch. I have NO desire to blend in and they have NO desire for their past. I went to a PAW youth convention in Louisville the banner said "Building a Bridge to our Past" But Haywood-Tobin-Carl Smith-Willie Lee and etc. would have never recognized their own spiritual decendants. The music was(professional to say the least) entertaining but void of worship, the preaching was hip(no message just entertaining). The appearance would have been the same at a Baptist convention. The Nation youth director was introduced his wife showed more cleavage than the girls at Hooters(never been there mind you) and a slit up to the middle of her thigh, loop earings and makeup. I left brokenhearted. The young men looked like 'gangsta rappers.' We had our conference a few years ago in Nashville at the same time the Youth conference was going on. It was indeed enlightening. NO one would have confused our young folks and those attending this meeting with the exception of a very few.

TK Burk 08-15-2007 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 216348)
"Jew and Gentile" are not synonymous with con and lib.

Amen!

TK Burk 08-15-2007 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 216455)
I am so out of step with Contemporary Pentecost. When I visit their meetings from the music to the message I am out of touch. I have NO desire to blend in and they have NO desire for their past. I went to a PAW youth convention in Louisville the banner said "Building a Bridge to our Past" But Haywood-Tobin-Carl Smith-Willie Lee and etc. would have never recognized their own spiritual decendants. The music was(professional to say the least) entertaining but void of worship, the preaching was hip(no message just entertaining). The appearance would have been the same at a Baptist convention. The Nation youth director was introduced his wife showed more cleavage than the girls at Hooters(never been there mind you) and a slit up to the middle of her thigh, loop earings and makeup. I left brokenhearted. The young men looked like 'gangsta rappers.' We had our conference a few years ago in Nashville at the same time the Youth conference was going on. It was indeed enlightening. NO one would have confused our young folks and those attending this meeting with the exception of a very few.


This is a sad reality. My children have seen so little of what I used to commonly experience everywhere I traveled. Times are a changin', but I do not see where this is for the better. God bless you Elder!

J-Roc 08-15-2007 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost and Found (Post 216490)
This is a sad reality. My children have seen so little of what I used to commonly experience everywhere I traveled. Times are a changin', but I do not see where this is for the better. God bless you Elder!

Change is IMMINENT....and most welcomed!

Esther 08-15-2007 10:03 AM

He said, “I can’t believe that you preach conviction and commitment like you do! I wouldn’t do that in a million years!” When I laughed and asked why he quickly shot back the reply, “Job security! I’m not going to preach anything that doesn’t make them feel good because I want to come back again.” I could only weep and weep even now.

Unfortunately, I have seen way to much of that. It truly concerns me.

Esther 08-15-2007 10:10 AM

My personal belief is that if we have enough anointing to break the yoke "revelance" will be out the window.

We need the Holy POWER of God, to break the bondage that folks are in, and I don't mean just sinners either.

Consapostolic1 08-15-2007 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost and Found (Post 216490)
This is a sad reality. My children have seen so little of what I used to commonly experience everywhere I traveled. Times are a changin', but I do not see where this is for the better. God bless you Elder!

Are you meaning as far as the manifestation of the Spirit of God in a service, such as a haze from the heavy pressence of God?

revrandy 08-15-2007 10:15 AM

Steadfast...

I think that "relevance" defined is extremely important... the problem the Church has had is that if your not related or somebody's kid... your not relevant... and that is somewhat sad...

So where does one turn to find "relevance"... to the one who gives them the attention...

imo...

Pastor Keith 08-15-2007 10:18 AM

I think it good to have polar extremes, you have men like Steafast that hold and espouse a view that is needful and pulls us back into some sense of tradition and what is good about our unique Pentecostal Culture.

On the other hand I like and advocate a incarnational/missional approach that is risky, doen't play it safe and willing to gamble/lose all in it's approach to make the gospel incarnated into the dirty soil of people's lives every where they are and whatever manner of communication that it takes to reach them. After all God didn't wait for us to become like him to have a relationship, he became like us to reach us. I think that is the motive behind relevance/incarnational/missional ways of ministry.

Pastor Keith 08-15-2007 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 216455)
I am so out of step with Contemporary Pentecost. When I visit their meetings from the music to the message I am out of touch. I have NO desire to blend in and they have NO desire for their past. I went to a PAW youth convention in Louisville the banner said "Building a Bridge to our Past" But Haywood-Tobin-Carl Smith-Willie Lee and etc. would have never recognized their own spiritual decendants. The music was(professional to say the least) entertaining but void of worship, the preaching was hip(no message just entertaining). The appearance would have been the same at a Baptist convention. The Nation youth director was introduced his wife showed more cleavage than the girls at Hooters(never been there mind you) and a slit up to the middle of her thigh, loop earings and makeup. I left brokenhearted. The young men looked like 'gangsta rappers.' We had our conference a few years ago in Nashville at the same time the Youth conference was going on. It was indeed enlightening. NO one would have confused our young folks and those attending this meeting with the exception of a very few.


Of course the PAW will revel this, they tolerate people to lead and play in worship that aren't spiritual, who are only professional musicians, who openly live in sin, of course there will be no anointing on their worship. And yes I know this to be factual, I have an intern doing a stint at a PAW church and he called me flabbergasted and shocked.

Consapostolic1 08-15-2007 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith4him (Post 216582)
Of course the PAW will revel this, they tolerate people to lead and play in worship that aren't spiritual, who are only professional musicians, who openly live in sin, of course there will be no anointing on their worship. And yes I know this to be factual, I have an intern doing a stint at a PAW church and he called me flabbergasted and shocked.

Seems like alot of the upc is headed that way if they're not careful.

OP_Carl 08-15-2007 11:04 AM

I'm not sure whether to say megadittos or amen.

God Bless you!

Steadfast 08-15-2007 11:22 AM

It's been interesting seeing the various viewpoints on the subject at hand. I, for one, am not afraid of the wide array of Pentecostal views although I sometimes get fearful - as Elder Epley said - of how 'wide' that 'array' is getting!

The bottom line is that God called us to make righteousness look good to a lost and dying world. That had nothing to do with bending to please the world and everything to do with living a joyous attitude of 'life more abundantly' in the parameters of modesty and holiness. We have folks who bend too far to the left and too far to the right.

Part of that is the fault of preachers themselves. I still mourn to admit that there are many out there with the same sick mentality as the one who was most interested in 'job security'. We, in the ministry, have gotto convey that commitment and truth can be preached effectively and without a vulgar spirit but it will require preachers that have the guts to stand up for what's right and the tenderness in their hearts to show them a Christ like spirit while doing it.

Pressing-On 08-15-2007 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 216318)

2. The second part of the answer is just as vital as the first. Those who preach a strong standard should endeavor to show the world a ‘proper’ spirit that matches your ‘proper’ attire. Too many of us have stripped the beauty out of holiness in the eyes of the people.

It’s shameful and even sinful to make our ‘holiness’ an offense to lost souls! God called you to be shining examples of ‘life more abundantly’ but far too many times long skirts come with long faces, a good sleeve length comes with a bad temper and uncut hair seems to be a ‘package deal’ with an unruly spirit!

We call them ‘holiness’ standards but is it really holiness if it’s just a church ‘uniform’ instead of an expression of a wholesome, happy life? I’ve come to call it ‘Irresponsible Holiness’ because it becomes a lie easily seen through when our appearance says “Victory!” while our attitude says, “Venom!”

We need a renewing of our minds!

Hold on to separation but hold on with a right attitude!
Preach a strong message but preach it with a tender heart!

Oh that God would restore to all of us the precious truth that the spirit of holiness was given to the Church as the ultimate outreach tool and not mortal to build walls between us! A right spirit and a holy life were designed in the mind of God to draw the world to the ‘beauty of holiness’. That’s not called ‘relevance’… that’s called righteousness.

Relevance wants to make the Church look good to the world;
Our calling is to make righteousness look good to the world!

And it’s an irresponsible holiness to live a standard or reach for the lost without making God’s righteousness look appealing to those who need it the most.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

All thoughts were excellent, but his one is especially very important. I remember Brother Kilgore saying that our holiness message needs to match our lifestyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 216625)
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Blue"]It's been interesting seeing the various viewpoints on the subject at hand. I, for one, am not afraid of the wide array of Pentecostal views although I sometimes get fearful - as Elder Epley said - of how 'wide' that 'array' is getting!

The bottom line is that God called us to make righteousness look good to a lost and dying world. That had nothing to do with bending to please the world and everything to do with living a joyous attitude of 'life more abundantly' in the parameters of modesty and holiness. We have folks who bend too far to the left and too far to the right.

Amen, again.

RevDWW 08-15-2007 11:39 AM

The attributes of the fruit of the Spirit are not bitter. A bearing fruit tree draws attention by virtue of it's good fruit. The seed is in the fruit, we don't bear fruit for the only for fruits sake, but to reproduce in like kind in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 - 23 (KJV) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9 (KJV) 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Sweet fruit spreads seeds!

Demonstration of the Power of the Spirit will draw the lost, the sweet fruit of the Spirit will keep them.

J-Roc 08-15-2007 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 216625)
It's been interesting seeing the various viewpoints on the subject at hand. I, for one, am not afraid of the wide array of Pentecostal views although I sometimes get fearful - as Elder Epley said - of how 'wide' that 'array' is getting!

The bottom line is that God called us to make righteousness look good to a lost and dying world. That had nothing to do with bending to please the world and everything to do with living a joyous attitude of 'life more abundantly' in the parameters of modesty and holiness. We have folks who bend too far to the left and too far to the right.

Part of that is the fault of preachers themselves. I still mourn to admit that there are many out there with the same sick mentality as the one who was most interested in 'job security'. We, in the ministry, have gotto convey that commitment and truth can be preached effectively and without a vulgar spirit but it will require preachers that have the guts to stand up for what's right and the tenderness in their hearts to show them a Christ like spirit while doing it.


A tough row to hoe...but necessary nonetheless. :tiphat

Esther 08-15-2007 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 216625)
It's been interesting seeing the various viewpoints on the subject at hand. I, for one, am not afraid of the wide array of Pentecostal views although I sometimes get fearful - as Elder Epley said - of how 'wide' that 'array' is getting!

The bottom line is that God called us to make righteousness look good to a lost and dying world. That had nothing to do with bending to please the world and everything to do with living a joyous attitude of 'life more abundantly' in the parameters of modesty and holiness. We have folks who bend too far to the left and too far to the right.

Part of that is the fault of preachers themselves. I still mourn to admit that there are many out there with the same sick mentality as the one who was most interested in 'job security'. We, in the ministry, have gotto convey that commitment and truth can be preached effectively and without a vulgar spirit but it will require preachers that have the guts to stand up for what's right and the tenderness in their hearts to show them a Christ like spirit while doing it.

What scares ME for these ministers, is that they must give an account to God.

Any time I have been given an opportunity to speak before a group of people I take it very seriously and afraid I might miss what God wants me to say. I never want to preach just to itchy ears.

Brother Strange 08-15-2007 02:05 PM

I see that you have mulled these thoughts over in your mind long enough fo them to securely taken root in your spirit. The Lord will further direct your mind in this regard as the gate is not getting wider nor is the way getting broader. This is true even though we have a great deal of wide gate preaching and broadway living.

The greater that you stay true to the preaching that directs to the strait gate, the greater the relevancy becomes to those that seek to find it. This is so though few there be there that find it, yet it is just as much relevant today if not more so, than ever before.

StillStanding 08-15-2007 02:50 PM

Our mission is to make the message of Jesus Christ relavant to our given generation and culture. (e.g. My kids don't like the same type of music that I like, etc.)

Until Christ returns, he will always have a church that will speak to every culture and generation. Maybe that's why God allows us to die after a certain time. Otherwise, each generation would always think that THEIR way was the RIGHT way to do things! As each generation dies, their voice is silenced and the next generation determines a new definition of right and wrong.

Ferd 08-15-2007 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pianoman (Post 216838)
Our mission is to make the message of Jesus Christ relavant to our given generation and culture. (e.g. My kids don't like the same type of music that I like, etc.)

Until Christ returns, he will always have a church that will speak to every culture and generation. Maybe that's why God allows us to die after a certain time. Otherwise, each generation would always think that THEIR way was the RIGHT way to do things! As each generation dies, their voice is silenced and the next generation determines a new definition of right and wrong.

And all this time, ive been thinking our job was to show the world who relevant the Gospel is to their lives?

StillStanding 08-15-2007 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 216845)
And all this time, ive been thinking our job was to show the world who relevant the Gospel is to their lives?

It goes BOTH ways! :)

Ferd 08-15-2007 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pianoman (Post 216846)
It goes BOTH ways! :)

ahhh, well in that case, at least one of us is half right!


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