Since the heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?
 

In studying the following scriptures on unity and forgiveness, I have a question I'd like to throw out for discussion.

When we come to Christ and put off our old self, we become new and like Him. He has forgiven us and it's written below that we are to forgive others and forget their wrongdoings. I'm with it so far.

Then Ephesians 5:3 starts with BUT and lists several things that should not be among us.

If these things are among us and are a struggle with some, the scriptures say to not be partners with them.

When do we just forgive and forget? Just because someone is looked at as a Christian do we just accept that they are not struggling with any of those things listed and love them as Christ loves them, or not be partners with them?

Since their heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—

22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Ephesians 5
1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

I think that passage is speaking of unrepentant folks, not just people who have done so in the past or struggle with it. When we repent, God not only forgives, He forgets. When we ask forgiveness again, God doesn't remember that we just asked forgiveness for the same thing yesterday, the day before, 1000 times last year, etc. It's as if we are asking for the first time.

Since we don't know the hearts of others, it's not for us to judge, but I think we know when someone is repentant and when they aren't. I believe it's the latter that Paul is addressing, and I agree with him.

Actually, Paul was 'teaching' the Ephesian church.......and it's still relevant to the Church today.

Matthew 7:15 - 23 (KJV) 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus words speaks clearly don't they?

Sometimes it can be a hard call. When someone has given you cause to mistrust them, it's hard to ever do that again.

We can be assured that every person will bear fruit of whatever they have embraced and it will ripen and show itself. So, we have something we can count on happening.

We've, more than likely, dealt with many issues involving people coming and going. Basically, we come to the place that we put that trust in the work of the Holy Ghost. He knows the heart and he won't allow anything to destroy His people or His church. All things will be revealed.

So, we can only do as the scriptures admonish us - "Be ye wise as serpents and gentle as doves." Heavy on the wise. :D

We can be sure by the attitude and behavior of their life...the true benchmark of holiness! You cannot hide the heart too long...eventually it reveals itself and proves either genuine or counterfeit.

Extra heavy on the gentle!!!! :nod

Amen!

Thanks guys! Guess if I had posted a picture of Dora it might have received more views!

WE can't. The only thing WE can do is look at fruits and warn

Isn't that amazing...what inquiring minds really want... well I am glad to have been a participant of this thread.

Yup...only stupid threads get attention. But then again, if you keep posting here until you get to page 31 then suddenly your thread too will become a stupid thread too :killinme

I think RG is complaining of being praxxed....I direct your attention to:


http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...7&postcount=31

Good post HO! The question that this thread brings to my mind is this. Since we have all sinned and fallen short, and have failed one another, and needed forgiveness. And since God is the only one who truly knows a person's heart, and because I have certainly needed forgiveness in my own life, I tend to take the position, "Why would I even need to know if someone is sincere or not?" Our responsibility is to reflect the character of God, who forgives and forgets. Thus to remember and be always questioning is out of character with being a Christian.

I agree in most cases, however, what if there is someone that could be a threat or risk to others, do we just forgive and forget and turn our heads to what could take place?

A little discernment helps as well.

Ever had a parent say to thier kids, "don't go with that person."
"But why Mom?"
"I don't know, I just don't feel right."

We can love forgive and forget, but sometimes God will allow are spirit to sound a warning we need to heed-to be careful.

I was glad you didn't post a pic of Dora...she may need to be put to bed soon.

"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

And the commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:21

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7-8

Yes, Ron I have and I've done that too. You are exactly right and the heed to be careful is in those scriptures too, or at least I believe I could read it that way.

Well ....... what would you like to do?

As Christ is with us!

I don't know that I would like to do anything - it's just something I've been studying.

Oh. I see. Well, when you have an answer, let us know. :)

Dear, if you will read the first post it says, I would like to discuss.

That's what we're doing. Discussing. I'm reading the posts, thinking and then asking questions and adding my own input. This is usually called discussion. :)

Felicity, I have no beef with you, okay?

You stated when I had an answer to let you know - - that doesn't sound much like you were up for discussion.

I don't have an answer that's why I started the thread for the discussion.

What about foolish talk, coarse jesting -- this goes on all the time? But we make exception for that? But don't for other things mentioned in those scriptures?

Thots?

Oh boy, here we go again. This is getting to happen way too often.

Why would I think you have a beef with me? I don't, so and have told you that repeatedly so put that far far far from your mind sis. :kittyhug

Exactly, why is that? Why do we overlook somethings, yet focus on others?

Too funny.:hypercoffee

Well, that's what I'm wondering. What makes people choose ..... we'll get this guy or gal for one thing or other and not address the other things.

People pick and choose. It's part of being human I guess.

The thread reminded me of someone I once knew. His name is Joe. Joe was the kind of person who went about conning any church willing to listen to whatever said story he could tell. He would invent a story, tell it to a church pastor, and then proceed to con the church out of as much money as he could. Joe pulled his scam on several of the apostolic churches in the area where I once lived.

As fate would have it, the Lord finally got a hold on Joe and he repented with tears and the whole nine yards. His repenting happened at the church I was attending, so this is where he started his true walk with the Lord. He came to me a few months after his conversion (we had become friends) upset because no one would believe he had really changed. His reputation as a church scammer had preceeded him and he just could not seem to overcome it. He said to me, "Rico, I don't understand why no one will believe that I have repented. The Lord knows my heart is pure and that I have truly repented."

I explained to him that people do not have the same abilities that God has. God can look right into our core and tell if we are sincere. People do not have that ability. It would take us more time to see who he had become on the inside. I told him he just needed to be patient, because eventually who he had become on the inside would be visible on the outside. It was only natural for people to be skeptical of him because, afterall, his target for scams had always been churches, and he had scammed some of the apostolic churches in the area and people knew about it. He understood what I was saying to him, but he was still very disappointed. He wanted everyone to see the new man, not the old man.

I said all that to say this: We need to be careful in our perceptions of the people around us. We may feel we are right on target with someone and not have the ability to see who a person really is. My suggestion would be for us to be cautiously optimistic with people, especially new converts. It may take months, or even years, for them to completely shed the after effects of who they were prior to conversion. We need to use wisdom and Godly discernment. This is one reason why we need mature saints in our churches who have exercised their spiritual senses.

Great post and example you gave there Rico.

People make their judgments and sometimes they're right. But sometimes they're wrong too, and if they're wrong so much harm can be done to a person in the meantime.

Rico,

That is one of the best post you have ever written! This is what I'm talking about. It ties right in with what others have said about bearing the fruit.

Once someone has hurt you and there is mistrust, it does take time to rebuild that relationship and just because God has forgiven them doesn't mean as humans we can immediately do that too.

I almost feel that scripture while promoting unity and forgiveness also lays out some warnings for us to heed also.

Great post!

Didn't know I am so spiritual, did ya? :killinme

There are people who we pastor/ed that we know things about ..... some of the struggle, failure, even repeated failure ..... they get up, they fall down. They try and do well for a while and then they fail again. You counsel with them, encourage them, pray with and for them and see them do well only to see them fail yet again.

We've never turned our back on any of these people. We've never cut them off. We keep on loving them and encouraging them. When someone is down, when they've failed over and over again .... cutting them off is not going to do them any good probably.

How many times has Jesus had to forgive and pardon us? He never stops encouraging us. He never turns His back on us. Like the song says........ "He don't give up easy". And He doesn't.

God allows people to go their willful way. He allows them to exercise their will. But except for extreme situations He never turns His back.

What did He die for after all? He wants people to be saved and we should have the same heart for people that Christ does.

I've seen it before.

I've seen my kids struggle with forgiving their dad and I know it's a hindrance to them and sometimes it's so hard to know what to do.

I don't want them to give up on him, but he broke their trust and it will take a lot for him to rebuild that trust with them.

This is where it gets hard because he's not even claiming to live for God now, so the fruit he is bearing is pretty bare. But, does that mean we aren't suppose to forgive this type person too? As a Christian, shouldn't we even though they aren't?

Studying this has just brought more questions in my mind than answers. I really appreciate your post.

God sees people differently than we do.Jonah saw the Ninhevites one way ,but God had compassion towards them.Jonah had a message but no burden.

Good point Scott! What we desire for the other person has a very strong influence on our willingness to participate in the will of God for that person's restoration or deliverance.

I have to admit that I'm guilty when it comes to judgement of the hearts of others, even when my own is so black. I am so human that I don't tend to realize that while people fail time and time again, God never fails, and He keeps His promises.

I just wish I could get that settled in my mind, especially for myself.......

And I'm still trying to remember that I'm not the judge of others.

I don't think we should be stupid, but the thread is about fellowshipping with unrepentant folks, right?

To answer your post above though, I tend not to trust too many people, especially in the church. Sorry, can't help it, and have had things happen to me personally by people in the church, so I'll well aware that while we are saved, we are still human also.

We can forgive, but God doesn't command us to forget. That's His job.