Pastors move to withhold/lessen SFC offerings in protest of NAYC
 

I've been away for a while - due to a new job and a major change in schedule - so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

Today I had some time to catch up with some friends of mine (licensed ministers) and am more than a little disappointed with what I've heard. I've asked more than one about it and they've all confirmed the same.

I'm sickened by this. Completely disgusted.

Apparently, in a manner of protesting the sinful '07 NAYC, several Pastors are either withholding or significantly lessening the amount of their SFC offerings this year.

If you're a Pastor who is thinking about doing this, would you mind explaining what in the world you feel this will accomplish? Please, by all means, state why you think you should punish the ministries and people that are supported by SFC simply because of your childish tantrum over what happened at NAYC this year. Help me understand why you feel Tupelo, Lighthouse Ranch, Home and Foreign Missionaries, Bible Quizzing and other District events should pay for what happened at NAYC.

This is as stupid as Democratic Senators/Representatives blocking or withholding funds from the troops because they don't support the war.

Doing this does nothing but hurt and possibly permanently injure the ministries or other people that SFC supports. You sure you want to be a part of that? You sure God would honor your tantrum and attitude of "well, I'll make them pay for what happened . . . "

How dare these men. If they follow through with their threats, they'll have to answer to God for their ridiculous selfishness and arrogance. I cannot imagine God approving of this kind of attitude and action.

Any Pastor here on AFF thinking about making this kind of a childish statement?

JMO Sick . . . just sick.

Imagine if our High Priest had decided to withhold His offering because of our sin?

If a pastor feels he has the "right' to withhold his offering as a boycott... it was never an offering in the first place.

A sign of the times, CR.

As we used to say in BC . . . "that'll preach."

The REAL sign of the times is what went on at NAYC....

The UPCI is headed in the wrong direction my friend....

It truly is sad that Lighthouse Ranch, Tupelo, etc. etc. etc. will have to suffer BECAUSE OF THE BAD DECISIONS OF THE LEADERSHIP (I.E. HAZLEWOOD) OF THE UPCI... not the local pastors who disagree with the direction of the organization. I know pastors, who instead of routing their monies through UPCI foreign missions (and having about 2/3 taken out for "administrative costs") are sending their monies directly to the missionaries themselves, and they are receiving 100% of the money, instead of just 1/3.... Also, pastors can support Lighthouse Ranch and Tupelo directly without having to route their money through Hazlewood. What the local pastor are trying to do is withold support the worldly agendas of hazlewood moneygrabbers and displays of carnality as seen at NAYC...

JMHO

:largehalo

You can keep your politics and inconsistencies, BD. It's disgusting. Where is the grassroots outrage when others in the movement reify Magic Hair? There are no calls for boycotts of the literature advocating heresy.

What went on at NAYC is indeed the direction the next generation will take ... and God knows it's about time.

Money grabbers? Are you a licensed minister? ... perhaps it's time for you to make a decision.

Every time I see your name I'm reminded of a HQ official who boasted to me and a "worldy" sound technician that he had just attended a Dylan concert ..but God forbid we spread the Gospel using television airwaves .... the inconsistencies and frivolity was enough for me.

Isn't sending missionaries money directly against the rules? Using UC logic ... How is that any different from owning a tv?

First of all, I have no stakes in politics. I am not UPC and don't plan to be. I am making an outside objective observation. I see where CR is coming from, and I understand and sympathise with the pastors who she is condemning.

What inconsistencies? It's easy to make an accusation but if there is no substantiation it's speaks volumes of the accuser. Show me what "inconsistencies" you are talking about!

1. What is "Magic Hair"?

2. What "heresy" are you talking about?

Judges 2:10
and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.


I am not licensed. I have seen first hand from UPC missionaries I knew personally, who while on debutation, had to solicit three times what they would need while they were on their mission. They got only a third of the money they raised in pledges and commitments...

Inconsistencies? Frivolity? Please, give an example! I have maintained very consistent dialogs, AND RESPECTFUL, with several of the brethren and sisters on here... with a couple of exceptions. As far as I know, my positions on issues are VERY consistent. If you don't believe me, you're welcome to find out. Frivoloty? If someone attacks me or is disrespectful to me uneedfully, I will respond defensively. Noone has a right to be disrespectful to anyone! And if you want to try me out, go ahead!

I don't know what is and isn't against the rules. I know in the independent circles, we have to get our missionaries money somehow, and it AIN'T goin through hazlewood!

The next generation shall rise forth victorious over many obstacles that the old guard has set before them. It is disgusting that you would say that this new generation does not know the Lord. Many know the Lord in a more personal way than those that came before them. The generation that accepts nothing without question. The generation that does radical things to reach their lost world, this generation shall bring forth a great harvest. You can build walls around your walls with your four and no more... old things are passing away. All things shall become new, and so shall it be with the next generation of Apostolics.

If this is true, I wonder what the pastor would say to a saint who withheld tithes and offerings because they didn't like the sermon he preached?

My guess is that the pastors response to that situation would be much different.

I don't want to be misunderstood as applauding pastors withholding their offerings over the NAYC incidents, but I do want to address something in your post.

It is a fallacy to compare a pastor's relationship with and responsibility to a man made organization with the relationship of a saint and their local church.

Never the twain shall meet.

I do understand the frustration of the grass roots with a WEC that seems less and less in touch with them...I'm not sure withholding money from those who need it is the best way to express it though.

But the UPC is the the Church, and elected officials are not "Master Pastors" in spiritual authority over other pastors.

So your analogy doesn't hold up.

That false concept is one of the biggest problems in the organization.

I can say this because I am a member.

Come on man........quit holding back........tell us how ya really feel.....

(I do agree to a certain extent....hehe)

ROFL!!!

Good one!

Please see the post that totally debunked and destroyed the straw man that you find so hilarious!

There is no direct parallel between a program of the UPCI and the Biblical principle and mandate of the tithe!:)

Hazelwood moneygrabbers? Really?!! And you know this - how?

Those pastors who send funds directly to missionaries are acting in defiance of the group they pay dues to and they're also doing a disservice to the missionaries themselves putting them in the position of also acting counter to the way things are supposed to work re FMD of the UPCI.

What about being submitted to the authorities and those in leadership over you?

It was the comparison that I found hilarious.

Just like the pastor depends on the tithe money, so do the various organizations and what-have-you depend on SF monies.

And according to the manual, giving to SFC is equatable to tithing! LOL!

And another good post!

Stop supporting SFC and it affects the whole --- including missionaries!!

If they did this then they are not abiding by the manual that they signed to follow. What does this make them?

Hungry?:nah

The word anarchy comes to mind for some reason.

Somebody makes an error in judgment and we voice our opinion and concern about that by holding back financial support that has negative ripple effect? That speaks louder than writing letters of concern to department heads? Holding back finances can cripple a whole department doing lots of great things.

Is this an idea that's advocated by many?

*Re-opening thread after further Admin review*

*putting on AFF Moderating hat*

http://spyhunter007.com/Images/india...fedora_hat.jpg

Folks, we got a great topic here that we can discuss, but we need to keep it on-topic and avoid individual and/or organizational-bashing....

The topic(s) that we are discussing:

a) Why are certain individuals considering withholding their financial support?
b) Is this an acceptable method to express their belief(s). If so, why? If not, why?
c) What would be short-term and/or long-term repercussions of such actions?

Please be aware this if this thread digresses/regresses to individual and/or organizational bashing, it could potentially be re-closed....

The delay for this particular decision was the result of numerous AFF staffers being unable to review the thread and share their thoughts/feedback over the weekend....

*taking off AFF Moderating hat*

Carry on.... :D

I was also a licensed minister in the UPCI for 20 years. I can tell you that I heard over and over, "It's your responsibility to give the money, God will deal with the recipients if it's being misused and mismanaged".

I believe my analogy is on target, because I pastored for a number of years, and felt the sting of withheld offerings if I preached something that stepped on someone's toes. However, the fact that my income was affected by something that I did that others didn't agree with did not just affect me - it affected my family, innocent bystanders, if you will.

So, for me to with hold money from missionaries, innocent bystanders, because I didn't agree with what happened at a youth congress would fall into the same category.

Good insight....

The classic "I'm not going back to that restaurant because they had bad service" (no pun intended :D hehehe)

Once again we see frustration in action.

this is a reaction to how frustrated the members of the UPCI are right now. that frustration is on every side of every issue.

hundreds of conservitives will leave if TV passes. hundreds of mod/liberals will defy the organiztion if it doesnt.

and out of 9,000 members, less than 4,000 even care about that issue. at least 5,000 if not 6 or 7,000 members dont feel like the things that matter to them matter to the organization.

the 2 extremes are sucking up all the oxygen.

Probably on another thread, but what happened at NAYC?

My question is (guess I missed that thread) WHAT HAPPENED at the UPC NAYC - that y'all are all so riled up????????????/

Dora the Explorer
Step dancing
Good Christian Fun
Young people committing and re-committing their lives to Christ

so, until any of these "Ministers" come on this board and post "I'm withholding SFC offering b/c of my displeasure at NAYC" .....

we are wasting our time debating what somebody might have said!!

or are these the same ministers that are doing a MASS walk out if the resolution passes??

How come some extreme group (either extreme) makes all these "threats" but none of us on this board know of even ONE minister in either group?

could it be that someone is just making up "what if's" to discredit either side?

These threads may give you some background

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...ight=Dora+NAYC


http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...ight=Bombshell

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...ight=Bombshell

Now, now, Dan...is your tongue stuck in your cheek???

a) with Dora the Explorer "the TV personality" being highlighted at NAYC just months before "the TV vote"
b) with some feeling that "stepping" is not appropriate in the church and reflective of the world....
c) once again people's definition of "Good Christian Fun" could all be different....
d) We would all agree that was good....

There are just general observations....

Permanently, Elder and friend.

Erased so as not to offend any conservative poster who may withhold vital monies to worthwhile programs within an unnamed organization.

I'm with Ferd, I think its a very small group with either extreme that is sucking up all the oxygen and making a big stink out of something most dont even give two thoughts about.

My pastor isnt even going to conference - he says he has better things to do - and no sense incurring the expense when our local church could use the funds

Muzzled.

*putting on AFF Moderating hat*

JohnMark, let's keep other forums out of this discussion.... and avoid painting such broad, generic descriptives of people who may reside in this group.... please edit your post accordingly....

please stay on-topic to the identified thread criteria....

*taking off AFF Moderating hat*

This is really sad.

There are PROPER ways to address disagreements but withholding money that has ALREADY BEEN PLEDGED is NOT a proper way to handle this.

Typically, money is pledged at the SFC kickoff - this is long before NAYC takes place.

A pledge is the same as a vow - according to scripture, its supposed to be paid. There isn't any provision for "withholding" a vow for any reason.

Also, money that has already been raised or given and designated specifically for SFC isn't supposed to go for anything else unless the giver agrees to such a change. A pastor does NOT have the right to make this change without the approval of the givers and/or those that worked to raise the funds.