Modesty vs Holiness
 

A friend mentioned something this weekend that I think we can discuss.

Why do we call what is modesty holiness?

Where did this originate?

It originated by men!
Dress is NOT Holiness......it is a standard of Holiness.
But Modesty and dress and hair and yada yada yada in NOT HOLINESS!!!!

Not sure exactly, but I am sure that it came from the "with out holiness no one shall see God" thing. Since most op's preach that holiness standards are essential to making heaven and "with out holiness no one shall see God"...thus getting the Holiness Standard title. I think it is a weird statement, because there is no real corliation between dress and being Holy by scripture unless you are a UC, OP that see it differently.

If anything dressing "holy" can be more for protecting your holiness life. I think that people have replaced the term modesty with holiness standards...the truth is that we need modesty, but a dress code is not what we need. But I think it is a mixing up of terms.

This is true without holiness you can not see God. But holy living is more than about appearances.

Some have put all their emphases there and not enough on behavior. JMO

Plus I think if you are holy on the inside it will show on the outside.

1. The state or quality of being modest.
2. Reserve or propriety in speech, dress, or behavior.
3. Lack of pretentiousness; simplicity.

2.free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house. 3.having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress.

Holy From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Pure hag-nos'
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Perfect
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Clean
kath-ar-id'-zo
From G2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purge, purify.

So what are you trying to say here Prax?

You got it right! Well said. Though the showing on the outside is up to opinion. There are some that would tend agree with UC's some would tend to agree with the Mod/Libs. I think that your holiness reflects on the outside, but not to the traditions of what man have said that it "should be." You will be modest, but you also will not look good on the outside alone. The insides affect the outsides the outsides rarely affect the inward man.

You might be surprised . . . :rolleyes2

I have no idea. Perhaps because we Pentecostals often appear to the rest of the world to dress in a similar fashion to those who attend Wesleyan Holiness churches?

I'm interested too.

To me, holiness is purity of heart, a constant attitude of repentance and desire to do God's will and reflect God's love.

To me, modesty is just what Prax has shown us from yonder dictionary. Polite, discreet, genteel conversation. Not flaunting our earthly bodies or earthly wealth, since it all comes from God and He can take it right back again.

Esther- The idea that modesty equals holiness is probably related to the Catholic Church and some of the leaders a few hundred years after Christ who viewed women as temptations of satan; and consequently equated holiness with being covered up. Think of the kind of clothing nuns used to wear.

Some groups even went so far as to equate lack of bathing with holiness (less temptation). Other groups were distraught at the idea that one might wear colored clothing. After all, if God wanted us to have purple robes, he would have made purple sheep.

So modesty equals holiness has been with us a long time and seems to taken foothold about the same time the Catholic Church began keeping Scripture from lay people. Imagine that. :cool:

Modesty is a result of holiness in ones life.

I wonder way most major corporations have dress codes that seem to stress modesty?

Isn't it for there protection?

Don't take me wrong, I've been raised in Pentecost, and have seen some that look "the part" on the outside but were rotten to the core.

We need to stress doing what we do out of Love for Jesus, rather than just conformity to guidelines. We need to stress listening to the Holy Ghost speak in that still small voice, rather than listening to the screech of the world or the lament of the self-righteous.

Seriously, I need to be asking the Lord to give me personal convictions, not corporate ones, give me maturity to manage modernization, rather than just doing the new thing because it's the new thing, make me accountable to my neighbor over just counting blessings, give me grace enough not to force my liberty on others or to feel threatened by theirs, and keep me from losing the beauty of holiness by conforming to the ugliness of the world.

Marriam-Webster definition
Modesty
1 : freedom from conceit or vanity
2 : propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

You can be modest without being Holy but
can you be Holy without being modest?

Modesty? I imagine there is almost nobody on this board that would argue for something less modest than what major corporations would find acceptable.

How then can we talk about the modesty in the business world and dress standards (especially pertaining to women) as if they are on the same playing field? :cool:

Can you drive a luxury car? :driving

Yes, I can drive a luxury car. :driving Should I, would be a better question.
And if I shouldn't, should that preclude you from driving one? Or should I judge you as less Holy than I if you do?

My driving in luxuary should depend on if I'd be conceited or vain in doing so. If I did so to flaunt my (imagined) affluence wouldn't it be wrong? I would guess the answer would go according to motive, Counselor.

Should I worry about what impact drivng a luxuary automobile might have on a brother or sister that is living in a lesser state of luxuary, or having no luxary at all?

Would Jesus drive a luxuary car or SUV? Why or why not?

Are there boundries that bring freedom from concite or vanity?
Are there boundries that keeps one within a state of propriety in dress, speech, or conduct?

It seems as thought there are some that would say different. That any standard is a blow against liberty. And if you don't like my liberty, you ought to........well it's always someone elses issue.

I agree with stmatthew's angle. First we make ourselves holy by deciding that our lives, including our bodies, will be "set apart" or consecrated for an exclusive purpose. As a part of this consecration or separation we will look to fulfill the NT's teachings about how to serve God. This includes instructions for modesty.

So "holiness" first (as an inward decision) and then the outward expressions: modesty, conversation, conduct, and etc.

And "modesty" isn't just "covering up." It's the overall way in which we display and adorn ourselves. A $5,000 gown with inlaid jewels wouldn't be considered "modest" even if it covered you like a burka.

It is very much to protect them. But the truth is that is just as much to protect the employer. It is to protect them from lawsuits etc. I too have seen the "part-lookers" many times but I have seen people that were Christians to the core, but yet did not look like the mold that the pentecostals have seem to make. The mold needs to be broken! God molds us, not us molding each other.

One thing I worry about is when you said, "keep me from losing the beauty of holiness by conforming to the ugliness of the world." Why say that? Holiness is on the inside, yes it is beautiful, but it is interior. The fact is that the "ugliness of the world" should have very little do to with dress. The fact is that modesty is what is important. There are things that I would not wear and my wife would not wear, but that are still modest. Look at this, there is no place to buy clothing if you are a christian that the world can not buy there too. There is also not a place the world can go but the church can't. We may not look like everyone else in the "world" but the fact is that if we keep drawing this distinction then all it does is show a light on the extremist and not on the purists. No matter what you or I think there are people that do not look like us and have as close if not closer walks. They let nothing get between Him and them. God is no task master, He is a liberator. Do not confuse what I say. I am not saying we have a license to do whatever we want and it is all covered, because it is not. We are covered by grace and mercy, but the fact is that we need to "be holy for He is Holy."

Good idea but, what about the people that do not know God yet are modest in dress? I agree with what you say if you are referring to churched people. Though we are not about churched people are we? The truth is that there are a ton of results of holiness. Modesty, I think helps to protect your holiness. I am not for a dress code placed on us, though I am for modesty. Your opinions and my opinions about modesty and other things may differ however I think that you can understand what I am saying. It is like wheels on a car. The wheels are not part of the car (cause they can be removed), but the car can not go anywhere without the wheels. Modesty is not part of holiness, but modesty helps holiness go.

The ugliness of the world comes from an ugly heart. Just as holiness proceeds from a pure heart. I didn't say anything about clothing in that paragraph. You assumed I was talking dress code.

It seems all to often that some want to cover the shining of His light with a veil, cause the light scares folks, kinda like when Moses came down from being with God on the mountain. If we can just be a little more like them then they'll want what we have. Maybe if we exhibited a little more love and light they'd want what He has to offer.

Thats why I worded it "Modesty is A result of holiness in ones life.

As DWW stated above somewhere, "you can have modesty without holiness, but can you have holiness without modesty?"

Show me someone that has true holiness, and I will show you someone that has modesty in all the their conduct and character. Because modesty is A fruit of true holiness.

Well said! I agree with you.

I never said you were talking about clothing. You had quoted me from before and in that post "I" was talking about clothing thus the reason I was talking about it.

It's no problem.

We're having a good discussion!

If we examine the fruit of the Spirit, well see that gentleness, goodness, meeknes and temperance all speak to modesty, morality, and integrity. All attributes the world is sorely lacking and of which The Church, the Bride of Christ should be a great example.

Excellent questions and observations. Let me continue...

Does it matter what Jesus would drive? Would Jesus take accounting? Would Jesus have a wife?

Why do the Ten Commandments speak against coveting but not vanity?

Why do we get so worked up about vanity when Solomon called everything in life vanity?:hypercoffee

all is vainty saith the preacher... we must decide how vain we are....

It's not the make and model, but how He would go about choosing. He probably would just borrow a car, like borrowing a donkey for His triumphant entry.
He didn't need to take accounting, that's why he had Judas and Matthis.
Probably not, His was to be a Spiritual linage, not a physical one.

Could it be that vanity is a main ingredant in coveting?

Why do you get worked up about vanity? :killinme

Vanity and pride are soul killers.

ok... You showed us that some of the choices made by Jesus are not applicable to the lives we deal with. My point exactly. Thank you. ;)

You also made an interesting point about vanity perhaps being at the root of coveting. Great food for thought.

Nevertheless, the irony is that in the end; modesty can of itself become a point of vanity. Which leads to the next point...

Why are we so concerned about our neighbor's vanity while leaving our own alone? Humans have always expressed their individuality one way or another. Why then is vanity only ok when it is done the way I do it? :sshhh


Incidently, you get the last word, since I am out of here for at least the next few days. :oops

Here comes the pitch, and it is a high drive deep into left field and it is outta here a homerun by RevDWW!

:hanky:rooting:grumpy:largehaloYou can look the part and not be the part BUT you can NEVER be the part and not look the part.

Aren't Jesus' examples always applicable, instead of a donkey maybe I'd borrow a '73 AMC Gremlin to go work a bus route........... there would be absolutely no pride in that......:killinme

The concern can probably be trace to one of three schools of thoughts.....1)How come they can do that when I can't? 2)I'm so good they must need me to lead them 3)I care about my fellow man so I'll try and help them out so they don't have to go through what I've gone through........
Vanity can be a matter of perspective...like the beam and the mote.......

Modesty becoming vanity.......the ole "proud that I'm so humble" paradox..............:killinme:killinme:killinme

.......Love does not seek it's own, is not puffed up.......

RevDWW,

You need to petition the General Board for permission to preach this on point message at General Conference!:killinme

The altars should be full!

There's no need to mock me PJ!!! :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

Interesting thoughts here.

True!

Great thoughts here.

To a billionaire $5,000.00 may be a modest sum. To ME, Lord I would stroke! lol :)

Just wanted to remind you He borrowed a tomb also. :)

His batting average is real good! :)

Modesty is just one proof of holiness.

But then what is modest? What I consider modest someone else would disagree with. It's a fairly subjective term although I think that even unbelievers know the difference between immodesty and modesty.