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Is the Father the Son?
According to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father. Is this true in reverse? Is the Father also the Son?
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God's manifestation as Father is revealed in the Bible as Father of creation, Father of the Son, and Father of those who are born again of the Spirit. The word, Father, implies a relationship. God's manifestation as the Son is God is his revelation of himself in flesh, not an indwelling but a true man, who died for our sins. He is the only begotten Son of God because of a supernatural conception of the Holy Spirit. God in his manifestation as Spirit is not only speaking to his nature but the active interaction of God with his creation. When you say the Son is the Father, you are misapplying these descriptive terms. The Son refers to God in his mode as man. The Father refers to God in his mode as Spirit. Isaiah 9:6 declares the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, the mighty God. I have no problem saying the Son is the Father manifest in the flesh. or the same God who is called the Father is also called the Son yet in a different mode of existence. |
Jesus identified the Father as a Spirit in John 4:23-24. When you think of the Father, you should think of the eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent Spirit.
The angel identified the Son as "that holy thing which was born of Mary" (Luke 1:35). Thus, the Son was the humanity which was born of Mary. The Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father. However, Jesus is both Father and Son. Your spirit is not your flesh, nor is your flesh your spirit. However, you are not two persons. I hope this helps. |
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If the Father isn't the Son, then you have two "persons." You have the Father and the Son, and neither is the other. You're right, my spirit is not my flesh, but my spirit and my flesh is one person...ME. |
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And if we take Isa. 9:6, according to your translation, it says that the Son is the Father. This statement has already has been rejected by a Oneness pastor in this thread already. So, according to you and the verse you posted... is the Son the Father? |
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You say you used to be Oneness, then you should know that OPs do NOT equate Father with Son. So then your question might be more along the lines of explaining that. From my perspective when OPs say "Jesus is the Father" they mean the "person" who is the Son is also the person that is the Father. The DISTINTION that exists between Father and Son is not one of Hypostasis, but rather of nature and existentially. HOW the Son exists is different than the Father because of the Human nature. HOW the Son thinks is different because of the human nature (mind, will, psyche) In other words they would say Jesus (the person) is both Father and Son in two distinct modes of being or manifestations or forms or whatever term one uses. When they say "Jesus is the Father" they are NOT saying "The son is the Father"...and as I said you were once oneness so you should know that (in fact from all the dialog at CARM and other places you should know that)... So the question is a little confusing and perhaps needs to be rephrased that's all. :hypercoffee |
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Then again in person, as the greek word puts it, the prosopon, Father and Son are NOT the same. Hypostatically they are the same Psychologically they are not. Father is the same Person in relation and being through the Divine nature and essence and Son is that person functioning and existing in relation to God and man through the Human nature exclusively (because of the Kenosis) |
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I would agree with you though that most OPs have not throught this through when quoting this verse because without explanation it would seem to the Trinitarian they are saying Father is the Son with no distinctions whatsoever. To the trinitarian though it often seems to us, the ONLY distinction that exists is person. We deny that notion that there are other things that we should look at that not only makes them distinct from one another but also makes they FUNCTIONALLY different to the point that on a pyschological level there are two persons, but not on a hypostatic level. Father and Son ontologically share the same Divine nature/essence but the Son, on an ontological level includes the Humanity. The humanity is limited to only that sphere of being we call "The man Christ Jesus" while ontologically and hypostatically the Father continues to exist and function as He always has been external to the Son and external to the temporal world. Now, if anyone did not have a clue what I just said...perhaps I'll try to get to it later. I have a wedding to get ready for. later |
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Here is the question again.. pay close attention to what I asked: Quote:
Jesus is the Son of God. Do you agree or disagree? If Jesus is the Son, and you also claim that He is the Father, then is the Father the Son? Very simple and straight forward question. |
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A "Spirit" is not a person. The Father is not a person. The Father (Divinity) indwelt the Son (Humanity), making one person -- "God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to HIMSELF." |
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Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. Please notice it doesn't say the Word indwelled, but actually became flesh and dwelt among us. Quote:
What are the qualities and attributes of being a person? A person exists and has identity. A person is aware of his own existence and identity. This precludes the condition of being unconscious. A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc. A person can recognize the existence of other persons. This is true provided there were other persons around him or her. Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc. A person possesses a will. A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose. A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject. Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment. Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons. A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions. Persons do not need to have bodies. God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels. Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will. The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead. http://www.carm.org/oneness/3persons.htm |
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But your flesh doesn't LOVE your spirit and talk to it. You flesh never tells your spirit to glory it with the glory it had with it before the world was. Basically your flesh and your spirit don't have a loving relationship with each other. And your spirit never sent your flesh into the world! |
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By the way, the doctrine of the trinity suggest that the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all coeterna, coequal, and coexistant persons"... If the "son" is equal with the father, then why did the son say "my father is greater than I"? Were they coequal, or was one indeed greater than the other? |
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Jesus said,
"I and My Father are One." Simple as that. Isn't it? ;) :) |
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RWP: Joh 10:30 - One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Gal_3:28), but one essence or nature. Gill: Joh 10:30 - I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, "I and my Father", εσμεν, "we are one"; that is, in nature and essence, Barnes: Joh 10:30 - I and my Father are one - The word translated “one” is not in the masculine, but in the neuter gender. It expresses union, but not the precise nature of the union. VWS: Joh 10:30 - One (ἕν) The neuter, not the masculine εἶς, one person. It implies unity of essence, not merely of will or of power. |
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Same God ,different manifestation.I understand there is but one God ,but God is plural in attributes not in being.
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I think so much of these arguments re the Godhead are semantics. Not totally of course but to a certain extent. The fact is we will see how many .... WHO .... in heaven? |
We will see One ,like John who saw One that sitteth on the throne.
I can't swallow the eternal sonship doctrine that classical Trinitarism teaches. |
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No evidence? Do you take scripture for what it says? Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Who is Jesus going to confess the believers name to? Lets remember, Jesus return to the Father. Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, Where did Jesus come from and where is He going back to? Its in plain English for us all to read. I'm not trying to trick you into believe anything but what is written. Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Again, believe what you want, but to me (not promoting any doctrine, just pointing out simple scripture) this clearly says that Jesus went back to God (his Father) and is now sitting with His Father on His Father's throne. Whose throne is Jesus sitting on and who with? The Son can say that the Father is greater than I because Jesus was in His humanity, He willing came to die on the cross! This is not speaking of deity, but position. |
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Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. You do understand that eternal life is in the Son right? No eternal Son, no eternal life. I believe the Son to be eternal myself |
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On another note, I would like an answer to the following question: "Who is your God?" Is He "the Trinity"? Is He "the Father"? Who is "God"? |
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Believer do you believe that Christ existed as the Son of God before His virgin birth ? Can you reconcile GAL.4:4 with that ?
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Well, we know the Father is God. We know that the Son is God, and we know that the Holy Spirit is God. According to scripture Jesus never claimed to be the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. The Father wasn't sent so He isn’t the Son. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son, so Jesus and the Father are not the Holy Spirit. My question to you is, is the Son God? |
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You didn't really answer my question as to Who "God" is. You sidestepped it, so I will ask again. When you read the term "God" in the scripture, to Whom does that refer? It is a "floating" term that should be indiscriminately applied to whichever person of the Godhead you believe is being discussed? Or, is there a definite, conclusive answer to the question. I ask again, WHO IS "GOD"? |
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There, I answered your question. Now, please answer mine. |
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two things to look at. 1. The Son was sent forth before He was born of a woman. Simple context observation. 2. The word sent forth means being sent from a place, thus proves he preexisted before his incarnation. Its not the same word used in John 1:6 as David Bernard tries to use. |
Well in the virgin birth did not God manifest Himself in human flesh?
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Cant this be said about each manifestation, mode or person ... depending on your semantics ... of the Godhead? |
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God is "I AM." God is LORD. God is YHWH. God is God. Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Isa 48:13 "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." |
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Let me try again, He who IS the Son IS God! |
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Believer you'll really good at making us prove what we believe.
You're proably one of those guys that knows both sides of a argument that could debate himself. |
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1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. If the Son of God didn't exist before his incarnation, then He couldn't be the one that was manifested. |
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Let's try John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with I AM and the Word was I AM." Verse 14, "And the Word (I AM) was made flesh ..." I've got no problem with that, but I have an idea that you might. |
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