Communism vs Christianity
 

Communism vs Christianity

“Communism is based upon the granite foundation of materialism dedicated to the liquidation of religion. Communism leaves no room for religion.” The Lexicon of Atheism. Moscow, 1959

“Marxism is materialism. As such it is with out mercy for religion. Every religious idea, every idea of God, even flirting with the idea of God is unutterable vileness.” Vladimir Lenin

“Let us drive out the capitalists from earth and God from heaven.” Soviet Slogan

“Our enemy is God. Hatred of God is the beginning of Wisdom.” The Philosophy of Communism, Fordham, 1952

“In this revolution we will have to awaken the devil in the people, to stir up the basest passions.” Dzerjinskii, Paris, 1936

“We do not tight against believers and not even against clergymen. We fight against God to snatch believers from Him.” Moscow Newspaper, 1975

“The soundest strategy in war is to post pone final military operations until the moral degeneration of the enemy renders the mortal blow both possible and easy.” Karl Marx

Since our president is communist thought you might like to know a little about the evils of communism...besides the thought they hate us Americans!

too bad Jesus and the early Chrisitan church were the original comunists, huh??

Ignorant comment...

no, its not... They were...

Jesus was a proponent of more communist ideology than anyone else in the history of the world until Marx...

The early church ACTUALLY LIVED communist lives, sharing everything they had (or did you skip that verse)???

I realize in modern America communism = evil, but the fact of the matter is that socialism/communism is the IDEAL way to live, the only problem is it is essentially impossible to actually pull off since people are evil....

but Jesus proposed many communistic things and the early church, from what we know about them, had what is the closest to socialistic society in the history of the world...

You are misrepresenting the meaning of governmental communism.

Jesus did not advocate, preach or practice a political government where all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a self-perpetuating political party.

I will agree with you that the early church did display voluntary collectivist principles, but they did not practice communism.

that is what it turned into, that wasn't what was attempted at happening...

What they attempted to do was create a socialistic state... It didn't work, but the ideals are still the ame...

Yes, there are bad things about communism, but the fact is it was just people trying to have the same exact ideals that Jesus espoused (taht being socialistic ones)...

Stop listening to the lame propoganda that all communism/socialism is bad... It isn't... Its just people trying to reach an ideal where everyone has all thier needs met and no one is in poverty... did it work? No... But that's because they didn't FOLLOW THROUGH on waht the initial plan was, not because the initial plan was flawed...

uhm, the evidence suggests, the church in Jerusalem practiced communal living. there is no evidence this practice was exported with the Gospel.

We also find in scripture that eventually the Jerusalem church....the First Church, fell to such poverty that Paul took up a collection from the brothers in Asia Minor to take to them to save them .

Even in Scripture communism was a failure.

And NEVER did Jesus suggest comunsit ideals. He never advocated that all people live communally. What he espoused was that those with the means take care of those who were down trodden.

He espoused the idea that ministers should trust God and not material wealth for their sustanance

He NEVER taught any principle of Marxism, Communism, or even communal living.

one more point. ALL communism/socialism is not only bad but anti-thetical and evil and distructive to both humanity and to the spiritual health of mankind.

redeemedcynic84 has some real problems that need to be dealt with...
Anyone that has half a brain and any knowledge at all of communism KNOWS it is one of the world´s most cruel systems.
I Personally have listened to hours personal testimonies of people that were years in communist prisions and their only crime was being a christian.

Communism doesn't work because it is based on a flawed premise: That men are inherently good. A premise that a guy like you should theoretically disagree with. Marx's plan calls for a gradual procession from the dictatorship of the proletariat to pure communism. The Soviets never got beyond a socialist dictatorial oligarchy because (surprise, surprise) the leaders were corrupt and reserved privelige and extras unto themselves.

Communism didn't work for the early church either. It is not truly known what was tried in Jerusalem. It may have just been extreme generosity, but it is unlikely that they lived in a commune. They sold their extraneous possessions, but probably not their homes and beds. It simply isn't known exactly what they did. Whatever they did, no effort was made to duplicate it in other cities.

Communism didn't work for the pilgrims.

Communism and socialism are simply the shiny hollow apple that is used to win the approval of the masses for some other form of government.

The Voice of the Martyrs should be read by all...

Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...

And Paul didn't take up a collection for the Jerusalem church to help them in thier poverty after the Jerusalem council... Its actually thought of by more scholars as a pay-off to allow him to preach that the gentiles don't have to follow the law...

you are, again, mixing up the way it happened with the idea behind it...

Jesus was a communist, but if he were to enact communism, he wouldn't do it the way Russia or others did it....

You are taking out the execution on the ideal rather than the ones who executed it badly...

the point ist hat the early church (and Christ himself) held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on...

No, it can't be done by fallen humans, it will never work here, but to say communism is evil or the antithesis of Christianity is absurd and requires ignoring a large portion of the Bible...

So you're wanting us to believe that Jesus taught something....in all of His Wisdom, something that was unobtainable.

Jesus taught that giving was something you do according to your heart and ability...voluntarily.

This is NOT socialism nor communism....this is Christian charity.

I'll look it up, I'm still trying to get through The Martyrs Mirror.

Nice Thread BTW, I had this debate with my mother after someone convinced her that Jesus was a socialist. I fixed that, point by point, fairly easily.

he taught to "go and sin no more" and that's not possible...

He taught all kinds of things that were ideals but weren't 100% attainable... That's the point of ideals...

When 34-year old Jiang Zongziu and her mother-in-law went to their neighboring market in Guizhou Province, China; Jiang took this as an opportunity to hand out Bibles and Christian literature. Only this day they had an encounter with the Chinese police.
The two Christian women were handcuffed together and brought to the police station. They were interrogated throughout the evening. The next morning they were sentenced by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) to 15 days incarceration for “suspected spreading of rumor and disturbing the social order.”
Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions-all from a government that claims to have “freedom of religion.”
But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women for the crime of passing our Christian literature. The following afternoon Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They claimed she died of “natural causes.” The fact is she was beaten to death.
The Voice of the Martyrs has received video testimony from the surviving family, photos of Jiang body showing her bruised body, and a copy of the actual arrest document. All of this had to be smuggled out of China as the authorities continue to attempt to hide their systematic persecution of Christians.
Much of the world would like you to believe Christians are no longer persecuted. Sister Jiang's family would disagree.

One beautiful Sunday morning--it was on this date, February 29, 1948--pastor Richard Wurmbrand of Rumania set out on foot for church. He never arrived. For eight and one half years his wife and son did not know where he was or even whether he was alive or dead. "Ex-prisoners" assured Sabrina Wurmbrand they had witnessed her husband's funeral in a Communist prison. Sabrina was heartbroken and yet she had her doubts. The men might be government stooges.

Wurmbrand's disappearance was expected. Anyone who acted contrary to the regime could expect imprisonment or death. At a "Congress of Cults" held by the Communist government, he had asked for it. Religious leaders stepped forward to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabrina asked Richard to "wipe the shame from the face of Jesus." Richard replied that if he stepped forward, she would no longer have a husband. "I don't need a coward for a husband," she answered. And so Richard stepped forward and told the 4,000 delegates that their duty as Christians was to glorify God and Christ alone.

He returned home to pastor an underground church and promote the gospel among Rumania's Russian invaders. He smuggled Bibles into Russia, disguised as Communist propaganda. And then he disappeared.

What had actually happened? As Richard walked to Church, a van full of secret police stopped in front of him. Four men jumped out and hustled him inside. He was taken to their headquarters and later locked in a solitary cell where he was designated Prisoner Number 1.

His years of imprisonment consisted of a ceaseless round of torture and brainwashing. For seventeen hours a day, repetitious phrases were dinned into his ears: Communism is good. Christianity is stupid! Give up. Give up! Over the years, his body was carved in a dozen places and burned. "I prefer not to speak about those [tortures] through which I have passed. When I do, I cannot sleep at night. It is too painful." His jailers also broke many of his bones, including four vertebrae. Miraculously, he survived. Other martyrs did not.

Eight and one half years later, in 1956, Wurmbrand was released. Sabrina herself was brutalized for three years in prison. The Wurmbrand's nine- year-old son Mihai was orphaned during this time. Released, the Wurmbrands immediately recommenced secret church work. Wurmbrand was returned to prison, not released again until 1964.

In 1965, Western churches ransomed Wurmbrand from Rumania for $10,000. Richard and Sabrina immediately spoke out for those still suffering in Communist hands. Wurmbrand was asked to testify before the US Senate. He displayed eighteen holes cut in his body. Afterward, he was invited to speak before hundreds of groups. By 1967, "Prisoner Number 1" had incorporated the mission organization that is now known as Voice of the Martyrs, dedicated to assisting those who suffer for Christ throughout the world.

Richard and Sabina were able to survive their ordeal through the power of love. "If the heart is cleansed by the love of Jesus Christ," wrote Wurmbrand, "and if the heart loves him, you can resist all tortures. What would a loving bride not do for a loving bridegroom? What would a loving mother not do for her child? If you love Christ as Mary did, who had Christ as a baby in her arms, if you love Jesus as a bride loves her bridegroom, then you can resist such tortures. God will judge us not according to how much we endured, but how much we could love. I am a witness for the Christians in communist prisons that they could love. They could love God and men."

Bibliography:

Wurmbrand, Richard. Tortured for Christ. Middlebury, Indiana: Living Sacrifice Books, 1976.

They may not have een oneness but I traveled with this sweet couple and translated for them and heard from their mouths the horrible sufferings they went through...NO JESUS did not practice communism.

Jesus shared...

What are all kinds of things?

We can live above sin with the Power of the Holy Ghost. I have had many major victories over sins that I do not do "no more." I am still a work in progress, but I make progress. That is the point.

I believe that the woman never committed adultry again..what do ya think?

Nevertheless, Jesus was NOT a commie or a Socialist....

Again...for the real record...lest ye forget:

If personal property is something Jesus taught against...what have we to give? And those that receive....how can they take possession?

Tom Snyder writes:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=52402

Any Questions?

Another violation of Sociocommunism comes to mind.

The Bible clearly teaches us the principle of reward according to effort.

This obtainable principle gets things down, whereas reward that has no relationship to effort fails in the long and often short term.

Furthermore, sociocommunism is not out to help the poor, but to perpetuate it and control them through the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84 (Post 240399) Tell that to the original church... who shared everything among them...

I posted before about the ellipses inherent in the phrase, "... had all things in common..." (Acts 2:44 and Acts 4:32). Peter expounds on this principle showing the respect that the early church community had for the private possession of goods; "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?" (Acts 5:4). Both before and after the possession was sold it belonged to Ananias and Sapphira. They were free to determine what become of the funds. The point where they ran afoul was in trying to deceive the community about their intentions. But the possession itself, Peter emphatically states- was "thine own."

That's not real communism. Real communism would have dictated that the possession belonged to the church and Ananias and Sapphira had no power over it at all.

Concerning collections at church, Paul says, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2). The funds were to be collected from individuals based upon the abilities (and willingness) of those individuals to give. No real communism here.

As Sister A. and others have pointed out, the problem with modern Communism is that it is a philosophical system based wholly upon materialism - the idea that there is no Spiritual realm. We have a bone to pick with the Communists long before we even get to economic issues.

Redeemedcynic, I think you have an idealized view of socialism/communism when you say, "[Jesus] held and preached the same ideals that communism/socialism is founded on..." There have been "communistic" movements in history (the Lollards in Britain and the Peasant Revolt in Germany) that were at least partially based upon the Christian teaching. But the example of Peter in Acts 5, seems to me to be the Apostle's emphatically saying "No" to communism.

In Acts 5, they had an ideal situation for a communist revolt. Peter and the others could have easily used the circumstances to plunder Ananias and any one else with material goods. Instead, in a courtroom-like setting, Peter argues emphatically, the "possession is yours," and "it's in your own power what happens with that possession..." thus stifling any notions of communism even planting root there.

The ideal of communism is truly a noble and good ideal, in my opinion. However, it really is best to leave it in the realm of ideals as we make an appeal to one another's hearts to be open and giving. But human experience has proven throughout history, however well intended the motivation, communism just doesn't work in this world with the human species; at least not on a large scale. Small communes have done okay, but nations have impoverished themselves with it.

same "scholars" that think Jesus was the son of Mary and a roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera?

get real. that is a load of bunk and you ought to know better! Paul had to BRIBE the Apostles so he could preach?

that is wacked out man.

I already dealt with this but Jesus was most certainly NOT a communist! of any kind. how obsurd.

Taking care of sick people is not a communist ideal. It is a christian ideal. feeding the poor isnt a communist ideal it is a christian one.

AND the Jerusalem church fell into massive poverty one can certainly assume it was because of their practice of holding everything in common.

AND

there is NO EVIDENCE that any other church besides the Jerusalem church practiced communal living.

NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE.

Communism is OF THE DEVIL, at its best it is a counterfit meant to replace faith in God, for faith in a state.

there is NO single thing within the "theory of communism" that has any redeaming value.

From each according to his ability to each according to his need seems like great wisdom, but who decides what the need is? The one receiving or the one giving?

While I agree with your position, I think "wacked out man" is a little strong. Many have in fact tried to make this very case.

Personally I reject the "bribe the church in Jerusalem" thesis because of Paul's words in Romans 15:25-26. He says that the Gentile churches that took up the collection did so simply because it "pleased them." They wanted to do it. In verse 27 he tells the Romans that the Gentiles are in a way spiritual "debtors" to the Jerusalem church. However in verse 31 he actually asks the Romans to pray that the saints in Jerusalem even accept the money.

It doesn't really appear to be a pro-quid-quo type of payment that occurred. Rather it seems like the Gentiles may have been using the economic distress of the Jerusalem church as an opportunity to "heap coals of fire" upon the heads of their erstwhile brethren.

again, you are missnig the entire point of what I am saying...

There is a rift between the IDEA of communism and the way that communism has been enacted in the world...

the idea of socialism, which is what communism is trying to get to (in theory), is great... It is something the early church practiced (at least on a large level, if not entirely) and is something that Jesus espoused many ideas that are also a part of socialism...

BUT the way that communism has been put into practice in the modern world is horrible... But it isn't communism that is evil, its the governments and the men who have put a great, wonderful thought into practice in a way that is never going to get to that wonderful place and is nothing like that thing it, supposedly, aspires to be...

Your issue is with specific governments, not ideals... But your attack focuses on the ideals, not the governments...

even if the woman didn't commit adultery, she still sinned elsewhere. That is the point. Jesus didn't say "don't commit adultery anymore" he said "go and sin no more", something that no one is capable of doing (except Jesus)...

Again, you guys are missing the point, though...

Jesus said many things that are socialist ideals... giving to the poor, taking care of the poor... taking care of those who can't take care of themselves... All things that are a part of socialism... Jesus was much closer to Marx as far as social action than he was to anyone that lived in his day and age...

RevDWW you just worry about making certain that your check is made payable to me!!!

I'll worry about the need, thank very much for your kind contributions. :)

I agree it is best left as an ideal that can't be reached... But the thing is that the early church (and Jesus) did and taught many things that would be supportive of a socialist system...

and they didn't force everyone to give, and they didn't give everything... But maybe the form of socialism they used (where everyone gave freely and wasn't required to give everything) was better than what Marx put forth... But to say it isn't in the same vein, well, I don't see how anyone could possibly get to that conclusion...

and, yes, communist governments have been anti-religion, but the thing is that a government doesn't HAVE TO BE anti-religion to be communist... In fact, if I remember right, there are governments that are communist at the moment on earth that are religious in nature as well as being communist/socialist... I'll have to look it up to see if I can find where/who... But the point is that, again, he issue is with specific governments and people, not the ideals... The idea of socialism is not against Christianity...

some scholars think a lot of dumb things...

but this isn't one of them..

It is FACT that some of the things Jesus stated are the same as things that Marx put forth as part of communism...

Therein lies the problem with communism.
But if it's redistribution of wealth, lots are for it as long as they are in on the 'distribution' and not part of the 're'........:killinme:killinme:killinme:killinme:k illinme

actually, they're both socialist and Christian ideals...

and communism is not of the devil other than the fact that the governments who have tried to put it in place have been evil and lied to the people telling them they were doing one thing when they didn't really do it at all... Russia was never really communist, they were ALWAYS a dictatorship that pretended to be communist...

which is part of my point... Sis. Alvear's problem is with the specific governemtns, but those governments never truely tried to reach the ideals... Russia expelled Trotsky (I think that was his name) because he wanted to keep trying to become a socialist state, whereas Lenin and Stalin wanted to keep taking everything for themselves... It went from egalitarian to totalitarian the moment that they took power... They lied to the people using socialism so they could take power...

Also, if you read Acts... when Paul returns from Galatia nothing is ever mentioned of this offering... However, a riot does occur because the Jerusalem church forces Paul to go to the temple to finish a Nazarite vow and the Jews riot because they think Paul took Timothy (a gentile who was not living the law at all) into the temple with him.... Which wasn't true (wonder where they got that idea from??)

The issue with what we have is that Luke never wrote anything bad... He mentions things when they are good, but ignores things when they go bad... But if you read in Paul's letters you can tell that there is a lot more tension between Paul and James (Antioch and Jerusalem) than is let on in Acts... and, in the end, Paul won... That's why we have all of Paul's writings....

Name one. lets go thru this. it just might be fun.

This is the soul of communsim:

IF people will hold all things in common, and all work for the greater good of the group, then all will share in equal wealth/health and happiness.

Now, THIS is as anti-christ an attitude as one can have for the source of ALL is HUMANITY.

Thus it is certainly of the devil!

Jesus is the source of everything! Communism on its best day is a deadly evil counterfit.

You're correct about Paul and James - and so many others in the NT church as well. Sometimes today people look at the disagreements within the church and get discouraged. They then seem to pine for the "days of pristine Apostolic unity..." Reading the Bible closely reveals that those days probably never happened. At one point two of the most outstanding preachers (Paul and Barnabas) had such a grudge between them that they couldn't even be on the platform at General Conference at the same time.

I think Sister A.'s main concerns about Communism may be from her own experience in the 3rd World where Revolutionary Communism and similar movements have really taken a toll on the people. *Notice I have capitalized "Communism" here. This is the materialism based philosophy of Marx and Lenin.

I think you are describing the older "communism" (I'll use the lower case here) for the distribution of wealth and resources within a local community. What you are describing is a system that has in fact been popular among many Christian groups throughout history. What Sister A. describes is a late Victorian/20th Century revolutionary program that led to the enslavement and slaughter of 10's of millions of people.

Two different "communisms" really.