Why are UPC church's so sectarian?
 

If there is so much truth in UPC, then why are folks so threatened by others who do not believe the same. Truthfully, most married couples don't agree on everything, some republican and democrat, but still live in the same house. Why is it that UPC pastors discourage their saints to fellowship even with others who are more liberal than they are? My brother wants to know.

I could tell you, but I'd probably be banned. :hypercoffee

Basic insecurity..

My point exactly...why are you so defensive?

Not to mention that you would have to "smoke" him after you told him! :D

I would be banned for life from this forum if I told you here, I will send you a PM:D

Probably due to fear of losing saints to the more liberal churches.

I love to attend UPC events/services, but they won't darken our doors. That part always hurts. I love to hang out with them, but they don't want to hang out with us.

If you have real truth and the power of the Holy Ghost, you shouldn't be afraid someone else will rub false doctrine off on you.

Fear of influence from those of lesser standards.

this thread will be short lived, just a guess.

What exactly does "lesser standards" mean. Are you talking about clothes???, TV or going bowling???

Because sooner or later you are going to have to admit that the other group is destined for hell and when this happens you will probably lose out on their friendship anyway.

So the pastor in all his wisdom is just saving a lot of trouble, heartache, and wasted time.

Oh also the pulpit is a sacred place and you should never let Trinitarians stand where the "true" word is preached.

Oh yeah and you might actually find out that they really don't believe in three Gods. :sshhh

ding! ding! ding! We have a winner! :D

In one word: FEAR!

FEAR - with a hint of ignorance

plain and simple

b/c those that understand the differences can and DO associate outside their own ranks.

get outta my head

Great answer! To bad your not a UPC preacher...and can actually vote. Just make sure you pay your tithes.

I am a guitar player. I buy all my own equipment and donate my talent to the church. That is tithes enough.

:rockband

Oh, I can vote. I have heard that anyone can vote because they don't check!!

RevRandy is right. I feel it is another form of control. They, the pastors, may not fellowship the more liberal ones because of their elitism. Alot of preacher in this movement are of the mind 'if you do not agree with me then we can not fellowship' or the 'my conviction are greater why lower myself to that level'. It is crazy, but common. I remember in the ALJC most of the churches are similar so there is not as much competition. But I remember times that people didn't fellowship one another because of crazy things

this is true, it is not very controlled.

A used car dealer once said "I've already donated all I'm going to give to this church." Is there anyway to actually give "enough" to God's work? Pay your tithes DG, might be the only thing that gets you in. :)

Tis true, we have heard that the UPCi has 100% Truth. And even though Bro Haney has implored us to invade other denominations with the Truth, many within are threatened by them and have ignored his charge.

It's a Holy Ghost check if their ever was one.

In fact, they are threatened of one another sometimes, whether within the oneness apostolic movement, or the UPCi. Some liberal pastors are threatened by their members visiting more conservative groups as well. I thought I would throw that in for balance and because I'm watching it happen currently.

Very unChristian and unBiblical indeed.

Nevertheless, some of my ex-Amish friends are amazed at the control some that do not rule well try to wield in their lives. Thankfully, they have enough brothers and sisters in Christ to counter it with encouragement and sound doctrine.

My burden and time spent within other groups, mostly more conservative Anabaptists, slowly cost me the support of my former pastor and his followers. They wanted me involved within their four walled ministry that they had constructed, God wanted something else. He believed that he would always hear from God before us, and since he didn't get the message personally, prior to us, it was "never given," and I'm some kind of irresponsible rebellious unteachable.

As I tried to explain my burden for the Anabaptist movement, he informed me that an Amish man that was building his monster house smoked a pipe, so I'm wasting my time basically.

No matter, all is forgiven, I simply left not long after to follow my calling. I was in the middle of some radical studying when God just called me out along with another family that, unknown to me, was involved with similar studies and felt the same calling to leave.

Love it or leave it!?

Yeah, I do both. I love the UPCi and its members no matter their shortcomings and doctrines of men, but I had to follow God's leading. He's been faithful all of the way, even when I struggled within the clefts of the Rock.

Someday they will understand, even if I make the powers that be a little uneasy with my presence and early church teachings. I mean no harm and have not caused any trouble. I cite my references instead of calling on the traditions of men.

Tell your brother I said hello.

My brother says Hi and God bless you and the work you are doing. It's sad that you have to leave the UPC to win the lost, or is it the lost our sitting on the benches worried about their own salvation? Anyway we'll never now will we? Isn't it funny how ever church thinks they're right including the baptists down the street? Who is lost anyway? Think about it, the blind leading the blind. Galatians 3:1 Ck it out.:driving

I'm trying to win the lost from off of the benches too, but some are too complacent with their reserved arrangement. I pray they make it.

Paul deals with this division nicely in 1 Cor 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

It appears that these denominations where mostly either started by one man's theology or also literally named after him. You'd think that might stand out to Christendom like a big red flag.

I don't fellowship with liberal churches and it's not about control. I don't think it's because i'm an elitist either. "How can two walk together except they agree?" I'm not offended by others people's convictions and I don't care that others wear shorts and have facial hair. I do care when saints from other churches say things like "your in bondage" to members of our church. I don't think i'm any better than anyone but I would rather be around people that have the same outlook on ministry and life as I have. This is also true for our church.

I understand the "how can two walk together unless they agree" thing, but you must first look and say do we have more disagreements or agreements. Then you must look at the disagreements and see if they are worth fighting over. Most of the time they are not worth it. We can do a greater good together, but most UC's will not allow it.

There is no reason for any lib/mod to say anything about bondage. The truth is alot of people that are libs feel that alot of saints in your church are under bondage, but that is just opinion. IMO there is no need for extra biblical teaching, but I realize that some of these teachings have made a difference in ones life. But also they have torn people apart. As you I am not offended by differing view to mine though I think something UC's do are not needed. I do not try to change others minds. I think that alot of UC's and probably you too feel that if your saints fellowship with libs then your people will move the libs way and not the libs move the Cons way. Am I correct?

Allow me to ask you something. If there is a saint in your church that has followed standards for years then gets eye-opening experience and begans to follow the more lib minded way would you care? If it doesn't bother you for someone to have a different opinion than you is it ok for them to fellowship with your church still? I de feel that alot of it is a elitest mentality. You say it is not, but think of this, a lib can fellowship with a UC and no problems will arise except that the UC will refuse to fellowship with the libs. If the Libs are willing and wanting to fellowship the UC's, but the UC's do not want to fellowship the Libs tell me how this is not elitism?

I'm curious, is it more important to be around people with the same outlook on ministry and life, than to have the truth?

I appreciate your humble approach, I ask humbly, if two or more agree and are blind to the truth to some degree do they not get closer to the ditch together?

I'm rather conservative myself, these questions can apply to any of us across the spectrum.

I just can't figure out how, for example, trading in a God given beard in egyptian originated fashion for the clothing of the business/political world, complete with the french based fashion noose, is more conservative with respect to Christianity.

Nor do I understand how shorts that cover properly can be relegated to liberalism when the same conservative people allow their women to bare the flesh similarly.

Is it simply because the legs are shaved. Would then shorts on men be acceptable if the bare flesh had all the hair removed?

The Truth is out there, are we inclined to follow him, or men?

Does absence of the truth in these matters take away from the body's unity?

Nice post. What would happen if we all just moved closer to the Truth?

Having said that; Why are you concerned with what people say about you, unless there is some modicum of truth to it. You don't need to defend the truth. Also, had Jesus not "fellowshipped" with sinners, you and I would not have the opportunity to be saved. The problem with that mentality is that its "exclusive" and not "inclusive" which is the basic problem with the UPC. If you really have the truth UC then why aren't you willing to let your light shine...to whoever, whenever? God loves everybody and He doesn't pick and choose who He fellowships with or who he prays for. Whoever calls on him will be saved including the drug addict or the ultracon, it doesn't matter. Whoesoever will let him drink of the water of life freely...By the way, how can you influence anyone who isn't your friend or will listen to you? Its all about relationship...:telephone

See that is the thing to each group truth is relational. UC's believe truth Libs see another. The fact is that there is 1 and only truth. I think that if we can fellowship and link together in a "United Effort" then we can accomplish great things. But wasn't that the reason the PCI and PAJC joined together in the first place? I honestly feel that the Libs can be happy fellowshipping with the UC's but the UC's will not feel comfortable fellowshipping us. I was once a UC's to the higher standards, but I saw how judgemental I was and the elitist mind I lived by. I see others doing it at it stinks. But I would love to see the day for the PCI and the PAJC minds to met and fellowship and fellowship only not legislate a lifestyle.

Good post. The truth is that the Bible is conservative with liberty and moderation. The trouble with Christians in this regard is that we have largely chosen to commit to one and disregard the others.

From my vantage point, it seems that is why each camp has good points about various issues....

....if we had better relationships, these differences would find resolution according to the entire truth in love as we ascend closer to Christ and all of his teachings.

Fear of the influence of the real truth is probably more accurate. Truth doesn't fear the influence of opposing views. In the end truth prevails, but if you can keep folks from knowing the truth by isolating them from it, it makes it much safer for your own ideas and positions.

What a great post! Novel idea huh? It is like they think one light can shine as bright as a ton of lights? :nah

Amen...if the slave owners could keep em ignorant, they could keep em in the field. He that the son sets free is free indeed. Spread the good news!

You're probably correct in most of what you describe. However, there are many layers of complexities and different "flavors" of the UPC that can actually be surprising sometimes.

And the depth of worship found in many UPC churches hits a homerun, shaking heaven and earth often enough that a lot of people there don't really see that there's a problem in other areas of their walk. A lot of UPC churches have their sole ministry to almost exclusively be the worship service. That's all they do, is "Have church."

Once you get really wrapped up in that you find it's pretty easy to shrug off other people's problems with easy bumpsticker like metaphors.

Quite right. It is interesting to me, I'm conservative, but not a conservative. I'm liberal, but not a liberal. I moderate, but I'm not a moderate.

Some of the conservative things that I do and teach are considered mod, or lib by cons and UCs. Go figure...I just want to explore and implement the Truth, be led of the Spirit, and let love, even for those in opposition reign.

If I have the truth, if I'm led of the Spirit, and I love, then the light will shine and I am a witness.


Love is verb too.

1 Corithians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I love it.

This is not just the UPC. This is symptomatic of our world today. It was never this bad before. Our society is divided. Our politics are divided. Other churches are wrestling with their own forms of liberalism vs conservativism via the gay issue.

You know that's a real problem. When I was preaching I was really into preaching. I studied many hours during the week to prepare for less than an hour in the pulpit every Sunday. After a few years I found that I represented a threat to the senior pastor and his wife. I had looked up to them for so long that it really blew me away that I threatened them.

In time I began to see that the older preacher was no longer as motivated to prepare for his messages. He had lost the desire that he once had for "book learning." My enthusiam probably only made him feel worse. In time, when even his own family was clamoring for me to preach more they simply pulled the rug out. They were complacent and satisfied with themselves.

I think that's a large part our problem in the UPC - we're satisfied that we possess "all truth" and that anything else is just going to muddy the water for us. So all you young UPC preachers out there, learn from my mistakes. Put away your studies. Put down the Bible. Pick up some tapes of some "old timers" and simply mimic what you hear. Don't try to glean anything for yourself. Your soul will die from the boredom. But you won't rock anybody's boat either.

Yes the disagreements are worth fighting over because I see them as a salvation issue. What saints in your church may look at as bondage is to us part and parcel of our salvation. I happen to believe that holiness is Biblical and we teach seperation from the world. I'm not at all scared of our saints becoming liberal. If fact, in the religious wasteland that we live there are several liberal churches that would love to have our people come over and be "enlightened". Our people love holiness and they love truth and these two are one and the same. Here's how I really look at it. I grew up COG and if I got back to that it's exactely that, going back. If we preach seperation from the world and we go back to "liberalism" we are doing just that. I'm not condeming you or anyone else, these are just my views, this is what I preach. I knew about bondage when I was in the world smoking and drinking. I've been called to "be ye seperate from among them", i'm the one that has been liberated with an eye-opening experience.

Tell me you are not equating the UPC with the shameful blight of being a slave owner! If so that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this forum.

I can agree with this.