Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240794)

Having been around OP's for over fifty years and now having been fellowshipping with many other Christians. I have observed an interesting phenomenon, that those who embrace the Word and declare Jesus Lord, I don't see any significance difference in the results in their lives.

Healing> no difference.
Changed lives, other than outward appearances> no difference.
Love of God> no difference
Love for the Word of God> maybe stronger among non OP's.
Love of each other> no difference.

So is the proclaimed "greater power" in the lives of OP's just believing their own press, or is there real difference? After fifty+ years I say the Word in folks lives makes the difference not the OP's doctrine.:couch

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240794)

Having been around OP's for over fifty years and now having been fellowshipping with many other Christians. I have observed an interesting phenomenon, that those who embrace the Word and declare Jesus Lord, I don't see any significance difference in the results in their lives.

Healing> no difference.
Changed lives, other than outward appearances> no difference.
Love of God> no difference
Love for the Word of God> maybe stronger among non OP's.
Love of each other> no difference.

So is the proclaimed "greater power" in the lives of OP's just believing their own press, or is there real difference? After fifty+ years I say the Word in folks lives makes the difference not the OP's doctrine.:couch

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240794)

Having been around OP's for over fifty years and now having been fellowshipping with many other Christians. I have observed an interesting phenomenon, that those who embrace the Word and declare Jesus Lord, I don't see any significance difference in the results in their lives.

Healing> no difference.
Changed lives, other than outward appearances> no difference.
Love of God> no difference
Love for the Word of God> maybe stronger among non OP's.
Love of each other> no difference.

So is the proclaimed "greater power" in the lives of OP's just believing their own press, or is there real difference? After fifty+ years I say the Word in folks lives makes the difference not the OP's doctrine.:couch

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 240836)

Several years ago the Barna group (I think it was Barna) put out a study showing that statistically "the church" (Evangelical Christianity) was no different than the world. The divorce rates and teen pregnancy rates, everything charted out to be pretty much the same.

At that time I went through and compiled stats for the church I served. To my shock and hurt, we were in fact way ahead of "the world." Some of the stats were subjective. For example if a couple backslides and then divorces are they part of the church? To evaluate our ministry I counted every couple that had been members of the church over a period of 10 years. If they "backslid" I still counted them because they were still a part of us. We influenced their lives. Did we make a difference?

It's pretty sad. But if one goal of the church was to save families we failed miserably. In fact, there were cases where we were part of the problem. And before people pile on with a bunch of anti-UPC or anti-Apostolic posts here; the same criticism can be leveled at every other church organization in North America. Apostolics were no different than the fundamentalist Baptists who were no different than the liberal Baptists.

But that was crakjak's point, I guess.

Originally Posted by RevDWW (Post 240840)

If other "Christians" are not filled with the Holy Ghost then Yes Holy Ghost filled filled OP's have more power then them. For you shall receive power AFTER that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.

It's not a title that empowers, but the Name of Jesus, the blood of His atonement, and being filled with His Spirit.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 240836)

Several years ago the Barna group (I think it was Barna) put out a study showing that statistically "the church" (Evangelical Christianity) was no different than the world. The divorce rates and teen pregnancy rates, everything charted out to be pretty much the same.

At that time I went through and compiled stats for the church I served. To my shock and hurt, we were in fact way ahead of "the world." Some of the stats were subjective. For example if a couple backslides and then divorces are they part of the church? To evaluate our ministry I counted every couple that had been members of the church over a period of 10 years. If they "backslid" I still counted them because they were still a part of us. We influenced their lives. Did we make a difference?

It's pretty sad. But if one goal of the church was to save families we failed miserably. In fact, there were cases where we were part of the problem. And before people pile on with a bunch of anti-UPC or anti-Apostolic posts here; the same criticism can be leveled at every other church organization in North America. Apostolics were no different than the fundamentalist Baptists who were no different than the liberal Baptists.

But that was crakjak's point, I guess.

Originally Posted by Newman (Post 240883)

Actually, I have had an experience to the contrary when evaluating God's people....

A long time ago (hehehe) when I was in high school I did a research project. I interviewed about 35 couples as to length of marriage, length of courtship, where they lived right after they got married, what their birth order was, how many children they had, how long before the first child was born, etc. etc.

In other words lots of interesting questions to compare the couples with each other. The most interesting observation I noted at the time, was that Oldest children don't marry Oldest children and Youngest children don't marry Youngest children (generally speaking).

But the most important thing I have observed about that study from so many years ago is that NOT ONE OF THESE COUPLES (all from church) that I interviewed have divorced and all continue to serve God or did so until their death.

Granted, I had interviewed alot of the parents of my peers among others. And granted most had already been in church as long as I could remember.

But doesn't that count? In other words, is it fair to count someone who has only been in church a year and was already divorced when they got here? Or count someone who came in and never really stuck?

Or count those as Christians that backslide and then get a divorce? DAH???

YES! I will stand up and say that many people count themselves a particular denomination that bear no resemblence to what they claim. That doesn't mean the Word of God is not effective in the true believer's lives.

I also acknowledge that marriages probably are bumpier today and good people sometimes find themselves divorcing through no fault of their own.

BUT overall, I will loudly declare that God is faithful and his commandments not grevious. There are true and wonderful benefits in serving God. Stronger marriages and healthier families are a normal outcome for those who measure their lives by God's Word.

And sometimes when life throws unexpected hardship upon a family, it may result ia a bumpy ride. No point in denying it. But this is where the rubber meets the road and God is faithful.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed (Post 240893)

It is interesting to me that since many of the denominational churches have embraced Pentecostal style worship, one can attend a Baptist, Mennonite, Alliance, non-denominational, etc. church and basically find the same dynamic you would find in most Pentecostal churches when it comes to worship. Many people leaving Pentecostal churches are attending these churches and feeling right at home. This surprises me.

As one who also has spent time with non-OP pastors and in fellowship with non-OP churches, I have to admit when you do away with the hype associated with many OP churches there isn't any more power there than in non OP churches.

Originally Posted by Newman (Post 240883)

Actually, I have had an experience to the contrary when evaluating God's people....

A long time ago (hehehe) when I was in high school I did a research project. I interviewed about 35 couples as to length of marriage, length of courtship, where they lived right after they got married, what their birth order was, how many children they had, how long before the first child was born, etc. etc.

In other words lots of interesting questions to compare the couples with each other. The most interesting observation I noted at the time, was that Oldest children don't marry Oldest children and Youngest children don't marry Youngest children (generally speaking).

But the most important thing I have observed about that study from so many years ago is that NOT ONE OF THESE COUPLES (all from church) that I interviewed have divorced and all continue to serve God or did so until their death.

Granted, I had interviewed alot of the parents of my peers among others. And granted most had already been in church as long as I could remember.

But doesn't that count? In other words, is it fair to count someone who has only been in church a year and was already divorced when they got here? Or count someone who came in and never really stuck?

Or count those as Christians that backslide and then get a divorce? DAH???

YES! I will stand up and say that many people count themselves a particular denomination that bear no resemblence to what they claim. That doesn't mean the Word of God is not effective in the true believer's lives.

I also acknowledge that marriages probably are bumpier today and good people sometimes find themselves divorcing through no fault of their own.

BUT overall, I will loudly declare that God is faithful and his commandments not grevious. There are true and wonderful benefits in serving God. Stronger marriages and healthier families are a normal outcome for those who measure their lives by God's Word.

And sometimes when life throws unexpected hardship upon a family, it may result ia a bumpy ride. No point in denying it. But this is where the rubber meets the road and God is faithful.

Originally Posted by ILG (Post 240911)

I don't see any difference in the amount of healings etc...what I do see is that, as another thread here mentions, the emotionally disturbed are attracted to OP.

Originally Posted by Theophilus (Post 240908)

Now then, bring this to its natural conclusion. Does this mean that non OP churchs are doing well, or your associations or references are lacking something?

A classic mistake in comparing ourselves with others in this regard is in our points of reference.

If we conclude that we are all looking good because we all have relatively the same level of Power, less what you call hype, in operation does it mean we are all where we need to be?

I've witnessed power that you will not find in other situations. I suppose I've seen a lot of 'hype' do alot of things.

I'm sure that the enemies of Christ told the people:

"Oh, don't believe the hype."

I'd say that their is plenty of power that gets labeled as hype, and hype that gets labelled as power. Perhaps, this is some of what appears to create the illusion of balance that crakjak refers to that makes some feel like we are all 'ok.'

I'm quite certain that true Holy Ghost filled believers don't have to travel far to smell the difference.

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 240954)

I have dealt with both. All of my relative for the most part are not UPC. Just my immediate siblings and their children and my Mom. All of the rest are good Baptist folks.

They study the word and can pray beautiful prayers, yet I can not say I have ever felt power in them.

I wonder if some are calling anointing "hype"? Anointing breaks the yokes of bondage, so IF you are NOT seeing yokes broken then I guess the anointing of God is not there and the hype of man is???

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Theophilus (Post 240908)

Now then, bring this to its natural conclusion. Does this mean that non OP churchs are doing well, or your associations or references are lacking something?

A classic mistake in comparing ourselves with others in this regard is in our points of reference.

If we conclude that we are all looking good because we all have relatively the same level of Power, less what you call hype, in operation does it mean we are all where we need to be?

I've witnessed power that you will not find in other situations. I suppose I've seen a lot of 'hype' do alot of things.

I'm sure that the enemies of Christ told the people:

"Oh, don't believe the hype."

I'd say that their is plenty of power that gets labeled as hype, and hype that gets labelled as power. Perhaps, this is some of what appears to create the illusion of balance that crakjak refers to that makes some feel like we are all 'ok.'

I'm quite certain that true Holy Ghost filled believers don't have to travel far to smell the difference.

Originally Posted by RevDWW (Post 240840)

If other "Christians" are not filled with the Holy Ghost then Yes Holy Ghost filled filled OP's have more power then them. For you shall receive power AFTER that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.

It's not a title that empowers, but the Name of Jesus, the blood of His atonement, and being filled with His Spirit.

Originally Posted by Theophilus (Post 240896)

I believe that the members of the Oneness Apostolic movement at large that DO NOT FAINT do, in fact, have, maintain, and display the inter workings of that Power that resides.

I have seen the Holy Ghost radically change lives, wherein other churches just gain members that only go so far.

I think some of what you've seen in fifty years are some warehouses full of backsliding, contained, and complacent would be Christians right there on the pew.

However, I have seen and felt the Power of the Holy Ghost in services and in homes, where I never felt or witnessed it prior to with my experience in other denominations.

Yet, I've seen dead UPCi situations too...no matter, doesn't take away from the Power and where it has gone.

When I was a kid I liked the idea of supernatural powers, it somewhat detracted me from considering any Christian power for the many sources of the forces, if you get my meaning.

Howbeit, as I traveled home one night from one of my first Illinois camp meetings at the age of 12 a terrible stomach pain came over me. The man that took us, who later became my step father, grabbed some oil and started praying for me in Jesus name as soon as I hit the couch.

I was healed with a power I had never felt before...I was like:

"What was that!"

So crakhead....what was that?

Since you really don't seem to know, after 50 years, I'll tell ya.

It was the Holy Ghost.

Same Holy Ghost that fell on me a few months later and caused me to speak with words I didn't even understand. I didn't purpose to do it...I was 12 for crying out loud...it just happened to me.

Same Holy Ghost that has empowered millions throughout time. Within and without OP situations, but never in situations without the Truth.

Same Holy Ghost that has healed countless people, including my own children before my eyes.

That's power friend, unlike you'll find anywhere else. And I've been everywhere else as far as denominations go, and Lord knows I played with matches elsewhere as well. The little powers cannot compare.

Maybe you spent fifty years in the bathroom at the wrong church(s).

Backsliders happen. It takes nothing away from the true Power that would have saved them, had they just not spent so much time going to the bathroom during service and really gotten involved with the things of God.

God does try to move in other situations when the enviroment is right, does that mean that they have a hold of the same Power, or does it mean that the Power is trying to get them to get a hold of Him?

Consider Matthew 7:

[I]21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/I]

Looks like He was trying to get a hold of them, but they weren't interested in going any further...because they thought they had arrived. This is applicable across the spectrum, OPs alike. Yet I think you'll find in that day fewer OPs that stuck to it in this Matt 7 situation, than anyone else...the great deception of Charismania included.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed (Post 240965)

I don't think for a moment that we are all okay! I believe that what every church in North America needs is a genuine humbling of ourselves before God, a laying down of our pride and a renewed consecration and dedication to the true power of God which is the message of the cross and the Spirit guided life made possible by the reconciliation that was accomplished for us on the cross.

We Christians are so deep in the "doo doo" of irrelevent issues that the unbeliever has a hard time finding their way to the cross anymore.

Originally Posted by Theophilus (Post 240908)

Now then, bring this to its natural conclusion. Does this mean that non OP churchs are doing well, or your associations or references are lacking something?

A classic mistake in comparing ourselves with others in this regard is in our points of reference.
If we conclude that we are all looking good because we all have relatively the same level of Power, less what you call hype, in operation does it mean we are all where we need to be?

I've witnessed power that you will not find in other situations. I suppose I've seen a lot of 'hype' do alot of things.

I'm sure that the enemies of Christ told the people:

"Oh, don't believe the hype."

I'd say that their is plenty of power that gets labeled as hype, and hype that gets labelled as power. Perhaps, this is some of what appears to create the illusion of balance that crakjak refers to that makes some feel like we are all 'ok.'

I'm quite certain that true Holy Ghost filled believers don't have to travel far to smell the difference.

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240991)

My friend don't be so defensive, I believe very much in the power of the Holy Ghost. But your post exemplifies exactly what I am addressing, that the OP experience is more powerful than the others that live very similarly, yet don't hold to the OP doctrines and standards.

I see the same power over sickness, and I see lives radically changed, families healed in churches that OP's generally discard as true believers.

Further the scripture you use, could very easily apply to OP's, since these are very common practices of OP's. We must all take hold of God instead of blind confidence in tradition. Of which you have conceded.

WHAT IS THE OBSESSION WITH THE BATHROOM?

Originally Posted by Theophilus (Post 241009)

Perhaps I misunderstand your intent, pardon me, it seems as though you'd like to level the field and call it all good.

Again, as we can see in Matt 7, these things are not vindicators of the possession of true Holy Ghost Power on all levels. He said he in essence never knew them intimately. This naturally can apply to some OPs and OP situations, but I dare say that it is overall rare by comparision.

Therefore, it's great to see people healed by God anywhere, but I see that as a response to an enviroment for a reason beyond the healing itself. Some folks get up, respond, and seek more of God as a result, some take it as vindication of arrival.

I'm not OP, but I'm not anti-OP either. Nevertheless, although I pray God moves entire churches and denominations to all of the Truth, I can't agree that they have the same power at large based on your criteria.

The Bathroom thing, LOL, I'm troubled at those the run for the cover of one throne when they haad well be at the feet of anothers. That is no cliche I know, it just came to mind.

I seem to feel like anyone that has denounced the Power that OPs in general experience on a regular basis, having been there, is either in the wrong church or in the bathroom when much of it goes down.

Then again if people would take better care of themselves they wouldn't need so much coffee to get going for church and then they wouldn't have to, well , you know....

I've got it! Eureka! Stop the Press!

One way to greater moves of God for churches is to take better care of the real temple.

Take care crakjak...

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 241001)

Maybe the classic mistake is the arrogant attitude that others cannot access this power, because they don't fit the OP mold? God is at work in places I never imagined, and "who can hinder Him?"

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 241013)

I perceive that we agree on more than we disagree on this subject, particularly on the care of the temple of the God.

Be blessed.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed (Post 240965)

I don't think for a moment that we are all okay! I believe that what every church in North America needs is a genuine humbling of ourselves before God, a laying down of our pride and a renewed consecration and dedication to the true power of God which is the message of the cross and the Spirit guided life made possible by the reconciliation that was accomplished for us on the cross.

We Christians are so deep in the "doo doo" of irrelevent issues that the unbeliever has a hard time finding their way to the cross anymore.

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240794)

Having been around OP's for over fifty years and now having been fellowshipping with many other Christians. I have observed an interesting phenomenon, that those who embrace the Word and declare Jesus Lord, I don't see any significance difference in the results in their lives.

Healing> no difference.
Changed lives, other than outward appearances> no difference.
Love of God> no difference
Love for the Word of God> maybe stronger among non OP's.
Love of each other> no difference.

So is the proclaimed "greater power" in the lives of OP's just believing their own press, or is there real difference? After fifty+ years I say the Word in folks lives makes the difference not the OP's doctrine.:couch

Originally Posted by Joseph (Post 241169)

Power is not the litmus test of ones "rightness" with God. I have experienced a preacher coming in and working in gifts and felt the fire of Heaven rain in the place, only to find out in later days that he left there with his offering to go to the mission field, and met up with his mistress.

Right doctrine, and right living will win over every time. You may have power to make the moon turn green, but if your foundation is faulty, or incorrectly laid, your building will eventually falter, and crumble.

Originally Posted by Joseph (Post 241169)

Power is not the litmus test of ones "rightness" with God. I have experienced a preacher coming in and working in gifts and felt the fire of Heaven rain in the place, only to find out in later days that he left there with his offering to go to the mission field, and met up with his mistress.

Right doctrine, and right living will win over every time. You may have power to make the moon turn green, but if your foundation is faulty, or incorrectly laid, your building will eventually falter, and crumble.

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 241402)

Faith does work, even when it is (apparently) misplaced. I've heard Mormons give stories of miracles in answer to prayer. I'm sure many religions have such stories, even those that don't claim to be Christian. There is a placebo effect for many remedies, including prayer, like it or not. Now, that is not to say that God never has a direct hand in answering prayers (maybe even from Mormons!), but I believe that the vast majority of so-called miracles are not really cases of divine intervention.

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 240794)

Having been around OP's for over fifty years and now having been fellowshipping with many other Christians. I have observed an interesting phenomenon, that those who embrace the Word and declare Jesus Lord, I don't see any significance difference in the results in their lives.

Healing> no difference.
Changed lives, other than outward appearances> no difference.
Love of God> no difference
Love for the Word of God> maybe stronger among non OP's.
Love of each other> no difference.

So is the proclaimed "greater power" in the lives of OP's just believing their own press, or is there real difference? After fifty+ years I say the Word in folks lives makes the difference not the OP's doctrine.:couch

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 241405)

Timmy are you a Christian? You don't believe in divine intervention?

You are missing a lot. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 241583)

I believe that believers who are Holy Ghost have greater access to God's power that believers who are not Spirit filled.If a believer is walking in the power of The Holy Ghost yes they have greater power than believers who haven't received the Holy Ghost yes.
I do believe believers who have not been Spirit-Filled can have an experience with God ,but the experience of Repentance,Baptism in Jesus Name,Holy Ghost baptism is normative Christian experience.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 240866)

CJ and Plethora - This is something I have thought much about and have never found satisfactory answers.