Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 241475)

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad (Post 241470)

In the interest of being fair and balanced... and to give some perspective... Given some recent statements on another thread, if a preacher is “lying” about the television issue, here is a complete list of the other rules in the same section of the manual that he may or may not be lying about. For consistency's sake, let's make sure we call them liars if they do not comply with any of the other 33 rules not involving television and video. (paraphrased by me to be less boring)

13. All ministers have to pay their local district dues.

That is the “Obligations and Rules” section in a nutshell. Obviously there is more legalese in there to clarify stuff further...

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 241497)

A minister cannot accept a member into his church who came from another UPC church without a letter of release or transfer from his old church.

That one gets ignored all the time fo shure

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind (Post 241537)

I have seen Pastors who would not give them......

They are supposed to.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad (Post 241470)

In the interest of being fair and balanced... and to give some perspective... Given some recent statements on another thread, if a preacher is “lying” about the television issue, here is a complete list of the other rules in the same section of the manual that he may or may not be lying about. For consistency's sake, let's make sure we call them liars if they do not comply with any of the other 33 rules not involving television and video. (paraphrased by me to be less boring)[LIST=1][*]Ministers cannot accept an invitation to preach by a member of a church without the local pastor's consent.[*]Ministers are not allowed to hold a meeting in a town with out the local pastor's consent.[*]No minister can start a church without the written consent of the District Board.[*]No minister or church pastored by a minister can relocate to a neighborhood where there is another church without written permission of the district board.[*]Ministers cannot accept an invitation to preach at any church that is “held in question” without getting the consent of the District Superintendent.[*]Ministers and saints of different congregations cannot interact in volunteer services or religious activities without the saint's pastors approval.[*]Any minister who resigns a church must sever all connection with that church or any of its members without the new pastor's consent.[*]Each minister holding a local license is required to pay their annual dues.[*]Each minister holding a general license is required to pay their annual dues.[*]Each ordained minister is required to pay their annual dues.[*]All ministers accepted into the fellowship must pay their dues beginning from the first of the quarter during which they are accepted.[*]All ministers are to pay their budget fee on at least a quarterly basis in advance.[*]All ministers have to pay their local district dues.[*]All ministers have to sign their affirmation statement stating their loyalty to the Fundamental Doctrine and the Holiness Standards every two years.[*]Ministers over 65 are eligible to become honorary ministers.[*]Any minister holding or seeking to hold credentials who speaks or writes in opposition to any Articles of Faith shall be called before the District Board.[*]No minister can be in a secret society except for labor unions.[*]No minister can mix bathe outside of the immediate family.[*]Ministers holding local licenses can't perform marriage ceremonies without permission.[*]Any minister who has been dropped or disfellowshipped shall not be received back for 1 year (not sure I paraphrased this one right, it is kinda confusing)[*]If a minister withdraws or is dropped from fellowship under questionable conduct, no other minister is allowed to let him preach or participate in any form in services except funerals or weddings.[*]Any minister who gets in trouble in another district can be tried in that district.[*]Any minister who commits an offense that affects more than one district may be refered to the General Board.[*]Any minister committing sins that are a great hindrance to the body shall be “silenced indefinitely” (that sounds kind of ominous!)[*]Any minister who knows the minister in rule 24 and lets him preach shall be “silenced” until proper restitution is made.[*]Any minister who used to have a license and has been dropped or withdrawn under question, falling into sin, etc. and seeks reinstatement later must prove himself for 2 years and then get endorsements and stuff.[*]All ministers not actively engaged in pastoring, evangelizing or teaching has to go to a church pastored by a UPC minister.[*]All ministers shall affiliate with the district in which they labor and reside.[*]A minister has to get a certificate of transfer to change districts.[*]A minister who is a student at a bible school cannot transfer into the district where he or she is going to school.[*]A minister cannot have a television in his home or advertise or minister on television.[*]No video except family pictures and church activities, etc. You must modify all video receivers so that they cannot receive television channels.[*]A minister cannot accept a member into his church who came from another UPC church without a letter of release or transfer from his old church.[*]A minister can't own the church building.
[*]A minister must keep confidential information confidential and not tell ANY other person![/LIST] That is the “Obligations and Rules” section in a nutshell. Obviously there is more legalese in there to clarify stuff further...

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241543)

That's the one rule that the UPC should trumpet. I know it's controversial and I believe in redemption and second chances. But I also feel good about having a line drawn that no should step over.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

I have often wondered if pornography is considered fornication and if so, how is that handled.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

I have often wondered if pornography is considered fornication and if so, how is that handled.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241548)

What about the adendum I added? Should pornography viewing be considered fornication? If so, should it disqualify the viewer forever from holding a license with the UPC?

I have always believed fornication is fornication and it should be handled just like a single man that has premarital relations... except if the preacher is married it should be treated more harshly when he gets caught up in porn.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

I have often wondered if pornography is considered fornication and if so, how is that handled.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241548)

What about the adendum I added? Should pornography viewing be considered fornication? If so, should it disqualify the viewer forever from holding a license with the UPC?

I have always believed fornication is fornication and it should be handled just like a single man that has premarital relations... except if the preacher is married it should be treated more harshly when he gets caught up in porn.

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84 (Post 241554)

wait...

so any person who fornicated at any point in thier life is permanently barred from being a licensed minister??? Seriously???

You've gotta be kidding me... Can we be any bigger of a joke?

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84 (Post 241554)

wait...

so any person who fornicated at any point in thier life is permanently barred from being a licensed minister??? Seriously???

You've gotta be kidding me... Can we be any bigger of a joke?

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 241566)

He's talking about while they were licensed ministers, not just at any point in their lives.

Other orgs have similar rules and in fact the AOG won't renew your license if you divorce and get remarried

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241570)

I disagree, respectfully. First off, a clarification- if the "fornication" happened at a point in time "before Calvary" in a minister's life, it does not count to disqualify the preacher. We're only talking about sexual misconduct after the minister has already been licensed. If you stray then- you are disquailified for life.

And it is controversial- what about the power of Christ to redeem all sinners? What about a second chance and the hope that such an offer can give to the fallen? These are tough issues. I don't think either side has a "slam dunk" case.

But I personally feel good about a body of ministers who do have a line drawn that they all mutually agree cannot be crossed. They don't throw you out of the Kkingdom of God over this; the just have this line among themselves. I think it's honorable.

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84 (Post 241573)

I think it should depend on when/how it happened... if it was something where they used thier authority as a minister to force the sex somehow, then, yeah, they shouldn't be allowed...

but otherwise, aren't we limiting/hindering God???

It isn't honorable unless ALL sin is treated the same way... God doesn't see a difference between one sin and another and, really, niether should we (note: yes, there are a few exceptions, having sex with someone should not be one of them as long as it is a mistake and not something more serious)

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 241617)

what it all boils down to is this:

ministers selectively follow the rules, some they follow and some they ignore.

enforcement of the rules is also done selectively depending on the district, who is in charge, who is on the board, who the person is who is not following the rules, and which rules he/she is disregarding

that's just human nature and politics

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 241497)

A minister cannot accept a member into his church who came from another UPC church without a letter of release or transfer from his old church.

That one gets ignored all the time fo shure

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

I have often wondered if pornography is considered fornication and if so, how is that handled.

Originally Posted by aquestioninggirl (Post 241657)

HUMMM!!!! Our District Board must not know that because they just transfer the preacher over and over to other sections.

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 241540)

You left off the one that any minister who is put out under question for ANY sexual sin can NEVER NEVER NEVER be licensed by the UPCI no matter how bad he wants to be and no matter the circumstances surrounding the situation.

I have often wondered if pornography is considered fornication and if so, how is that handled.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241585)

The practicle application of the divorce/remarriage issue among UPC ministers is applied at the local district level. A minister who is "the victim" of divorce is usually allowed to stay and even remarry. The district board however can and usually does a "due and thorough investigation." This would include an examination of the divorce court's records and testimony from the "ex" and other family members.

There are remarkable circumstances that can be involved in different cases. That's why it usually is a case-by-case type of judgement.


You have a point, however, again I'm trying to see it from the "practicle application" angle. The sin of a minister watching Britney Spears do her thing is not as damaging to the ministry as if Britney Spears were a minister herself. I think most are trying to avoid having a situation where they have someone behaving outrageously and bringing shame upon everyone else.

Sexual sin on the part of a minister often involves a person using a "position of power" to gain sexual favors from another. This "position of power" line of reasoning is so prevelant that most states forbid sexual relations between psychologists and their patients and medical doctors and their patients. Many Universities have similar policies for sexual contact between professors and their students. In the military a commander cannot have sex with any one under his/her direct command.

There's just a principle involved about using a postion to get sexual favors. The UPC says, "Do that one time and you're outta here." I happen to respect that stand.

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 241617)

what it all boils down to is this:

ministers selectively follow the rules, some they follow and some they ignore.

enforcement of the rules is also done selectively depending on the district, who is in charge, who is on the board, who the person is who is not following the rules, and which rules he/she is disregarding

that's just human nature and politics

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84 (Post 241683)

but the problem you describe with superior officers only applies to someone who is in thier church...

I agree, if a minister did sleep with one of thier congregation, they shouldn't be allowed to minister, just like someone in the military who sleeps with someone in thier command isn't given command again...

But to ban them for life for sleeping with a random person is, to me, absurd...

Again, do we make this stand with lying, with cheating at something else, with any other thing in the whole world???

and we're not just talking pastors, here, we're talking "ministers", period... I could understand a little better if it were just they couldn't be a head pastor (read: they always had to have someone over them), but it isn't that... its they are not allowed to be licensed ever again...

and that's just too harsh IMO... and it takes away from God... Peter sinned greatly after his conversion, so did Paul and James (just thier couple of arguments over things and money, etc... they were power struggles, and ministers having power struggles is worse than having sex with someone)

Or look in the Old Testament... Not only did God forgive and use David after he sinned with Bathsheeba... HE NEVER STOPPED USING DAVID!! There wasn't a period of time letting David's sins get in the past even... God never at any point went "David... you messed up too much, sorry, can't use you know more"

But we force God to say that to people ourselves... Could a human get any more evil than when they play God??

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad (Post 241470)

In the interest of being fair and balanced... and to give some perspective... Given some recent statements on another thread, if a preacher is “lying” about the television issue, here is a complete list of the other rules in the same section of the manual that he may or may not be lying about. For consistency's sake, let's make sure we call them liars if they do not comply with any of the other 33 rules not involving television and video. (paraphrased by me to be less boring)

1. Ministers cannot accept an invitation to preach by a member of a church without the local pastor's consent.
2. Ministers are not allowed to hold a meeting in a town with out the local pastor's consent.
3. No minister can start a church without the written consent of the District Board.
4. No minister or church pastored by a minister can relocate to a neighborhood where there is another church without written permission of the district board.
5. Ministers cannot accept an invitation to preach at any church that is “held in question” without getting the consent of the District Superintendent.
6. Ministers and saints of different congregations cannot interact in volunteer services or religious activities without the saint's pastors approval.
7. Any minister who resigns a church must sever all connection with that church or any of its members without the new pastor's consent.
8. Each minister holding a local license is required to pay their annual dues.
9. Each minister holding a general license is required to pay their annual dues.
10. Each ordained minister is required to pay their annual dues.
11. All ministers accepted into the fellowship must pay their dues beginning from the first of the quarter during which they are accepted.
12. All ministers are to pay their budget fee on at least a quarterly basis in advance.
13. All ministers have to pay their local district dues.
14. All ministers have to sign their affirmation statement stating their loyalty to the Fundamental Doctrine and the Holiness Standards every two years.
15. Ministers over 65 are eligible to become honorary ministers.
16. Any minister holding or seeking to hold credentials who speaks or writes in opposition to any Articles of Faith shall be called before the District Board.
17. No minister can be in a secret society except for labor unions.
18. No minister can mix bathe outside of the immediate family.
19. Ministers holding local licenses can't perform marriage ceremonies without permission.
20. Any minister who has been dropped or disfellowshipped shall not be received back for 1 year (not sure I paraphrased this one right, it is kinda confusing)
21. If a minister withdraws or is dropped from fellowship under questionable conduct, no other minister is allowed to let him preach or participate in any form in services except funerals or weddings.
22. Any minister who gets in trouble in another district can be tried in that district.
23. Any minister who commits an offense that affects more than one district may be refered to the General Board.
24. Any minister committing sins that are a great hindrance to the body shall be “silenced indefinitely” (that sounds kind of ominous!)
25. Any minister who knows the minister in rule 24 and lets him preach shall be “silenced” until proper restitution is made.
26. Any minister who used to have a license and has been dropped or withdrawn under question, falling into sin, etc. and seeks reinstatement later must prove himself for 2 years and then get endorsements and stuff.
27. All ministers not actively engaged in pastoring, evangelizing or teaching has to go to a church pastored by a UPC minister.
28. All ministers shall affiliate with the district in which they labor and reside.
29. A minister has to get a certificate of transfer to change districts.
30. A minister who is a student at a bible school cannot transfer into the district where he or she is going to school.
31. A minister cannot have a television in his home or advertise or minister on television.
32. No video except family pictures and church activities, etc. You must modify all video receivers so that they cannot receive television channels.
33. A minister cannot accept a member into his church who came from another UPC church without a letter of release or transfer from his old church.
34. A minister can't own the church building.
35. A minister must keep confidential information confidential and not tell ANY other person!

That is the “Obligations and Rules” section in a nutshell. Obviously there is more legalese in there to clarify stuff further...

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy (Post 241682)

As with most issues, it really matters who one knows, and to whom one is related.

Originally Posted by Sissy (Post 241730)

BINGO! We've got a winner! :)

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241767)

Hi Sissy- I think that I've been rising to this this bait for a while. I don't doubt the sincerity of your post or the experiences behind it. But I think that in the UPC the "who you know" game doesn't really count for as much as it seems.

I say this because first of all the UPC fellowship (and the "Apostolic" world in general) is small enough that everyone pretty much knows everyone else. For example, even though you and I are total strangers posting anonymously on the Internet- I bet we've met or at least crossed paths before. Our lives have gone separate ways but we'll bump into each other at these "watering holes" from time to time.

Next, from my own personal experience I have seen the UPC crowd to be very open to "new" people and "outsiders." Just look at the way we all fell in love with Borat when we thought he was just some clumsy goof. When it turned out he was somebody famous- we dumped him.

"Who you know" may open a door or two along the way; but unless you've got the goods this crowd will chew you up and spit you out. Often times, even if you've got the goods they'll spit you out. And for many, there is the special delight in chewing up and spitting out someone with a Pentecostal pedigree. Somehow it just makes the world seem like a better place for them when they get to do that.

Since you and I have known each other all these years I felt that I could speak up on this without causing any hurt. I do appreciate the concerns implied by you and S.M. because that sort of thing does happen. I just think that we seem to perceive it as happening more often than it really does.

Until we meet again, God bless. :)

Originally Posted by Sissy (Post 241772)

I read your quote twice and I understand what you are saying - and how true it is. Regarding the bolded part of your quote - sometimes it happens to our benefit.:)

I do know when we were getting our local license in the early 80's, there were couples that were denied because of various reasons. I felt sorry for them, we were in and out within minutes without a hitch. (My Pastor, before I married, was on the board) Later as we got general license and then ordained, still not a problem, of course my FIL was presbyter at the time)Now, in 2007, we had 2 couples (from our church)that went and got licenses and their past were more colorful, but was not denied, not even a hesitation - why? Not sure, but my husband called the presbyter and gave him a heads up on the couples' situations before going to the board.:sshhh

Overall, I agree with you.:)

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241767)

Hi Sissy- I think that I've been rising to this this bait for a while. I don't doubt the sincerity of your post or the experiences behind it. But I think that in the UPC the "who you know" game doesn't really count for as much as it seems.

I say this because first of all the UPC fellowship (and the "Apostolic" world in general) is small enough that everyone pretty much knows everyone else. For example, even though you and I are total strangers posting anonymously on the Internet- I bet we've met or at least crossed paths before. Our lives have gone separate ways but we'll bump into each other at these "watering holes" from time to time.

Next, from my own personal experience I have seen the UPC crowd to be very open to "new" people and "outsiders." Just look at the way we all fell in love with Borat when we thought he was just some clumsy goof. When it turned out he was somebody famous- we dumped him.

"Who you know" may open a door or two along the way; but unless you've got the goods this crowd will chew you up and spit you out. Often times, even if you've got the goods they'll spit you out. And for many, there is the special delight in chewing up and spitting out someone with a Pentecostal pedigree. Somehow it just makes the world seem like a better place for them when they get to do that.

Since you and I have known each other all these years I felt that I could speak up on this without causing any hurt. I do appreciate the concerns implied by you and S.M. because that sort of thing does happen. I just think that we seem to perceive it as happening more often than it really does.

Until we meet again, God bless. :)

Originally Posted by Pianoman (Post 241779)

Well then, things have changed in the last twenty years!

I saw minister after minister lose their license when they had a sexual affair, but one minister had "connections"! This minister was allowed to relocate to another state and continue pastoring and hold his UPCI license. :eek:

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 241799)

No, sadly I don't think they've changed. I was just saying that these types of things probably happen less frequently than we perceive them to be happening.

What you describe is one case. And without any other info at all I can tell you confidently that it's probably not the only case. For myself, I turned in my card in disgust when someone tried and failed to pull something like this off. I was so deeply angered that it's only by the grace of God that I didn't "go Phinehas" on the lot.

This stuff happens, but it doesn't really characterize the UPC the way some of our other failings do. IMHO, of course. It's just a matter of perception. And BTW - I've appreciated several of your post this past summer and the colorful buttons on your sig line.