Do you hafta go through the pastor?
 

I have a question I would like to throw out for discussion. Most of you know the conventional path to ministry is to let your pastor know you feel called, have him mentor you some, maybe have him set up some preaching gigs, etc. etc. It's good to have a mentor. I am not against taking this path into ministry in any way, shape, or form. However, I have recently begun to wonder if this established path into ministry is the only path. Take Paul's own words:


15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:15-19 (KJV)


I haven't had the chance to study out the whole timeframe, but it is evident that Paul did not go talk with any of the apostles to get their approval of his ministry until well after he had been preaching.



1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 3:1-2 (KJV)


Who mentored John the Baptist?


My question to all of you is this-Do you believe that there are people, who are called of God, that God qualifies as ministers of His Holy Word, apart from them taking the established path I spoke about in my first paragraph?

The reason I ask is because God is calling me back into prison ministry. The conventional side of me is saying it can't be God because I don't have a church home. I don't have a pastor to guide me in any ministerial effort I make. My mind is telling me there has to be some sort of mistake. But there is another side of me saying that I don't need man's approval to take the Word of God to the jails and prisons in this area. This other side is telling me that God has already called and qualified me for this ministry and that I need to obey Him.

I am in a quandry, gang. Everything I have ever been taught about ministry says you can't go out and preach without a church home, without a pastor backing you, without that recommendation. But I see in the Bible where others just obeyed God and went when He said to go. This is hard for me to reconcile. I need to hear some feedback. What do you think? Does God ever work outside the lines?

Rico,

My thoughts go back to the scriptures and the parable of the Talents. One man was given 5, another 2, and the last one. When eveyone doubled their talents by investing in other things they were praised by the master, the one who was afraid, hid his talent and God took the one talent [money] and gave it to the man who had ten. The moral of the analogy being: When you are faithful over a few things God will make you ruler over many.

Rico, it is wonderful that you wnt to do something for God and that may be your God-given talent but until you are faithful to a home church I don't see how you can be successful out there on your own.
Example: When one of the men in prison are looking for a church upon parole and you tell them that you aren't part of one...how is your witness going to hold up and how can you direct this man to a place of worship. People need rooted and grounded/discipled and that is through a church family.

You have to look at the culture of the times in John the Baptist's day. He was the forerunner to lead people into preparation for the Messiah. He took the people as far as he could go, but when the Messiah came on the scene - things changed. The church changed. God has given each of us a commission and set up a way to fulfill it.

I am not saying that there isn't a time that you have to do what God has called you to even if others are holding you back, but even that can be done and stay in the good graces of a local assembly.

You don't have to function alone, why would you want to?

Blessings, Rhoni

I would just ask the "organizations" of brethren to kindly present their letter of authority or marquee signed by God himself. :)

If they cannot, then that means they are only man-made organizations and the only thing the card does is let you park in the special space at the hospital. :)

Sister, it isn't all that difficult to have a list of churches to give someone getting out on parole. I knew an evangelist who didn't have a home church. He basically would visit different churches within a certain radius of his home. There is a church here in town that I have visited a few times I could refer someone to. I like visiting, but I doubt I will become a member there. I'm not "alone" as you would think.

If you would refer them, why not go yourself?

Sorry off topic - request for information.


Hey there sis, is there a TOOTH update?:saycheese

What part of I have been visiting a church here in town did you not understand? :)

I think she read the "I like visiting, but I doubt I will become a member there." and understood it very well. :)

I am disappointed that the so called "ministry" need only tell a pastor they are called and then he sets up some preaching. I feel if they are truely called to minister then they should just start on their own by winning souls, teaching bible studies, asking to do sunday school or other things. Personally I think all Holy Ghost filled individuals are called to minister. They might not all be called to preach.

HO, I doubt I will become a "member" at any church. I'm already a member of the church.

Dude, maybe I left out some of the details, but I was just trying to acknowledge the conventional path into ministry.

Rico,

I just worry about someone who isn't rooted and grounded in a church. I also worry that if you would not become a member of a particular church then how could you recommend it to someone else?

I do feel like anyone is 'called' to a certain ministry then God will open the door for him/her to minister but the calling most often comes with a confirmation from someone you know and trust to be spiritual and in tune with God's working.

A true Pastor will be right there with you on the calling and will help prepare you for it. My Pastor is such a man.

Blessings, Rhoni

Gotcha!

I was going to say just about the same thing but instead I'll just agree with what you said. I think it will be hard to explain to someone why you would recommend a church but not be a member there yourself. I'm also worried that his family will grow up and also not see the importance of church attendance in their lives.

We all need someone to whom we submit. Submission to authority is a key principle in the NT church.

every one must submit to their own master

every member of the body of Christ must submit to the head of the body

call no man rabbi, for one is your Master, Christ; and all ye are brethren.

So, you do not believe in submitting to those who have rule over you?!

I believe ONLY ONE member of the Body of Christ has the rule over any other member in the Body of Christ, the Head, the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Denominated 'heads' are a silly man-made thing in the assembly of our spiritual fellowship in Christ.

There are countess dominions and authorities and headships in the created/temporal realm. We should obey all those RULERS.

God has not appointed rulers to bless his church, he has appointed servants. Servants who love him; bondservants.

So to answer you question directly would mean that I would have to accept your word structure as having application man-to-man in Christ. I wholehearted disagree with any man having RULE over any other man in the ministration of our roles in the Body of CHRIST.

In your way of asking...I would say NO. But you see I would be saying NO to the premise that God has appointed RULERS in addition to the HEAD of the Body --I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS DONE SUCH.

I believe in obeying RULERS.

So, "obey them that have rule over you for they watch for your soul" does not apply to you or does not apply at all?!

tbpew, do you believe that you should be a regular, faithful attender of a certain church? do you believe that fellowshiping with other believers is important?

Heb 13:7-17
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.... .17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

So which ruler is the above scripture referencing?

- They have spoken the word of God to you
- You are to obey them
- You are to be submissive to them
- They watch out for your souls
- They must give account

no, it comes from a word choice for "leader or guide" that is the most regrettable choice for honest-hearted people trying to accountable to the Spirit that leads and guides them in all truth.

Barb, you believe God has appointed RULERS over other members of his own body, as service to his body, great, now just try to work out all the inconsistencies with other scriptural admonitions.

1. Tell me how you follow those rulers if they are OUT OF THE BOOK.

You might say, I would not follow them if they were out of the book!

Then I would reply, then they are NOT a God appointed RULER in your life. We do not get to pick and choose anything when it comes to a God-authored operation of authority in this life.

2. How do you not call any one master but you do call them RULERS? To make a ruler anything other than a master would require a PhD in wordsmithing.

3. If a pastor is a RULER over a God delegated flock, can a female 'subject' disobey her RULER in deference to her head, her covering, her husband? If she can, that RULER is not a RULER.

RULERS is a term that establishes a stumblingblock to individual accountability to our Lord and Saviour. If it works for you, great. I see it as a great detriment to the individuals moving and having their being in CHRIST. People never mature and go on to perfection, they sit at the RULER's feet, serving his calling, being made disciples unto his teaching.

GL, you're settled on this. I hope my feedback and responses to others serve in some manner to make up for my lack of general response to you.

I quoted a scripture to which you are unwilling to respond.

all my responses to Barb have enough content if your have any interest in comparing.

I have no problem with you making any conclusion about my actions or unwillingness to respond.

If you feel the need the need to hang labels or other "words of knowledge or wisdom" take every liberty.

I will not encumber any more bandwidth with this kind of overhead stuff.

???

Where in my posts have you perceived my "need to hang labels?"

Bro. Pew, do you pastor a church?!

I am speaking from the historical trend in these kind of discussions with folks who presently sit it what they preceive as Moses' seat for the local congregation.

My comment was an acknowledgement that if you feel the need or feel the unction, go ahead, I will not do anything to impede your liberty to speak.

IMO, Labels are just the normal way to get to quick conclusion about the basis for posting content with little to no consideration of the content.

I have consistently avoided direct questions of this sort to protect my ability to speak candidly on topics that cross the normal grain of member-minister fellowships made up of 'churchs' that have been founded or are being overseen by a guy or group of guys.

Sorry for being non-responsive.

BTW, the word rendered "rule" here is translated from the following Greek word:

NT:2233 heegeomai, heegoumai;
perfect heegeemai;1 aorist heegeesameen; (from agoo (compare Curtius, p. 688));
deponent middle voice; from Homer down;
1. to lead, i. e.a. to go before;b. to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over: in the N.T. so only in the present participle heegoumenos, a prince, of regal power (Ezek 43:7 for melek; Sir. 17:17), Matt 2:6;a (royal) governor, viceroy, Acts 7:10;chief, Luke 22:26 (opposed to ho diakonoon);leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, en tisi, among any, Acts 15:22;with the genitive of the person over whom one rules, so of the overseers or leaders of Christian churches: Heb 13:7,17,24 (oikou, 2 Chron 31:13;toon patrioon, 1 Esdr. 5:65 (66), 67 (68);tees poleoos, Judg 9:51, the Alex.;a military leader, 1 Macc. 9:30; 2 Macc. 14:16;used also in Greek writings of any kind of a leader, chief, commander, Sophocles Phil. 386; often in Polybius; Diodorus 1, 4 and 72; Lucian, Alex. 44; and others);with the genitive of the thing, tou logou, the leader in speech, chief speaker, spokesman: Acts 14:12 of Mercury, who is called also tou logou heegemoon in Jamblichus' de myster., at the beginning2. (like the Latin duco) equivalent to to consider, deem, account, think: with two accusatives, one of the objects, the other of the predicate, Acts 26:2; Phil 2:3,6 (on which see harpagmos, Phil 2:2 (W., sec. 44, 3 c.)); Phil 3:7 (compare Buttmann, 59 (51); W., 274 (258)); 1 Tim 1:12; 6:1; Heb 10:29; 11:11,26; 2 Peter 1:13; 2:13; 3:9,15.tina hoos tina, 2 Thess 3:15 (compare W., sec. 65, 1 a.);tina huperekperissou, to esteem one exceedingly, 1 Thess 5:13 (peri pollou, Herodotus 2, 115;peri pleistou, Thucydides 2, 89);with the accusative of the thing followed by hotan, James 1:2;anangkaion, followed by an infinitive, 2 Cor 9:5; Phil 2:25;dikaion, followed by an infinitive, 2 Peter 1:13;followed by an accusative with an infinitive, Phil 3:8.(Compare: dieegeomai, ekeegeomai, dieegeomai, exeegeomai, proeegeomai. Synonyms: dokeoo I, heegeomai 2, nomizoo 2, oiomai:heegeomai and nomizoo denote a belief resting not on one's inner feeling or sentiment, but on the due consideration of external grounds, the weighing and comparing, of facts;dokeoo and oiomai, on the other hand, describe a subjective judgment growing out of inclination or a view of facts in their relation to us.heegeomai denotes a more deliberate and careful judgment than nomizoo;oiomai, a subjective judgment which has feeling rather than thought (dokeoo) for its ground.Compare Schmidt, chapter 17.)


(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon.)

Overseers are not to be lords, but to be servant leaders.

Shepherding the flock, IMO, does involve a degree of rule...

No problem...sorry for the personal question.

I asked mainly because of your comments. It would seem to this layperson that a pastor would have a different view than you re the portion of Scripture we are citing here.

Just my uneducated opinion...

GL, I'll tell you what...I'll commit to pray about my involvement with your contributions.

and....

I will ask that you provide a table or some form of listing of what specific areas an overseer has true authority given him, by God, concering the individual member of God's own body.

Example.
If the guy who has his name as colateral on a mortgage wants authority for everything done within the asset secured by his liability --AMEN! Great. Of course he should have that. It's NOT a member of CHRIST issue, its a temporal matter that needs governers, kings, rulers, and CEO's to administer a shared/common asset.

If a guy who says he is called of God to preach or pastor, feels that has the authority to tell any other member of the body of Christ, that they should obey him as he obeys CHRIST, he has completely exceeded his REALM of authority.

In CHRIST, there is no other Kings or RULERS except the head of the Body. I am charged by scripture to know those who I labor among and to be in the book enough to know if the one's I trust as guides are living a life of ITim3 and Titus 1 and the responsibility to study is the individual saints to enable all this.

*added as edit *
subjecting ourselves, one to another is an act of choice on the part of the subject-or not a response or command from any authority other than the word of God.

Barb, please revisit the guestions I asked of you a few posts back.

thanks.

Okay...

What is your take on Paul's role to the churches in the NT, considering they also had pastors in each church?

Rico, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone out there to stop you.

Doing what you want however makes you one man alone doing what you think you should and there is danger in that.

The reason why pastors look for men who are willing to submit to some kind of leadership, is they know the danger that comes with being a maverick.
Men who are approved by the brethren, tend to be more clear on doctrine, more steady in their personal lives, more likely to minister without causing damage.
Pastors are jealous about what their people hear because pastors have to deal with the fall out when some other messenger comes to tell their flock.

With no one to vouch for you, a pastor isn’t going to risk letting you near his people.

The word you hear is “cover” a man who has mentors and friends in the ministry has “cover”. That cover is there it protect him from himself in most instances. It isn’t about some preacher getting to tell others what to do, it is about some preacher protecting himself from going off the deep end.

If you were to poll, 500 pastors regardless of denomination, I would guarantee, that 90% would tell you they have known at least 1 maverick preacher, and that guy went over the edge and is no longer serving God, or worse, has taken some group into apostasy.

Rico, like I said, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone that can stop you from starting a prison ministry or even your own church if you like. The danger is, there isn’t anyone to stop you when you go off course. EVERYONE runs the risk of running off course at some point in their ministry….EVERYONE. All the good ones know this, and work to prevent it before it happens. (Cover)

The great “tell” of a preacher in my mind, is how teachable is he?

I am rooted and grounded in the Church. That's what you don't seem to realize. Allegiance to a building isn't being rooted and grounded.

The confirmation of my prison ministry came a long time ago, Sister. It isn't even a question in my mind any more.

As I said, I am not against going the conventional route. I am just not so sure that that is the only way.

That is not true. He responded, but just to someone else who used the same scripture.