Murder-Suicide...Does God Ever Excuse Certain Sins?
 

This is not the first time I've heard of this happening among elderly couples. There was an elderly man a few years ago in a town I lived in who was placed on probation after killing his elderly wife who was bedridden. The law excused his crime because of his intent, and the urging of the family who understood why he did what he did.

I wonder if God, who is the only one who sees intent of the heart, excuses certain sins as well. The above story is an act of love, not a crime of passion or hate crime. Considering that the elderly, even though they are able to care for themselves, often don't have the same understanding they did when they were younger, might make certain decisions without thinking of the consequences.

I have no Bible and I doubt that anyone will, really. There are just too many variables to consider. I'm looking for the opinions of others on this matter.

Thoughts?

I don't think I wanna touch this one, I will say this though.....I'm glad I'm not God.

Suicide is self-murder and is therefore impossible to gain repentance (because the transgressor is dead). Murder, with genuine repentance, can be repented of successfully. The key to repentance of any sin is that it be true or genuine, this involves a turning away from the former lifestyle of sin. Please bear in mind this is the opinon of scripture and not myself. If I was offering my opinion I would say we hang the perps.

I'm interested in opinions, since I don't believe the Bible touches on this exactly. Yes, we have commandments and such but there are even exceptions to some of those commandments as well.

Not everyone who makes an attempt dies when they initiate the act to kill themselves. Very few in fact die instantly, if I understand it correctly. Is there not an instant of regret or repentance upon the act of commiting suicide and before actually dying that could be meaningful?

hmmmmm....

Sab, the story is about a 90 yr old woman and her 87 yr old husband. Without knowing anything else about their life other than his concern for his failing health (and I'm assuming he was her caregiver, thus the reason for his concern about his own failing health), how can you say 'hang the perps'?

To me, it's an act of love. I work with the elderly all the time and know the concerns of those who are no longer able to care for themselves. Put yourself in their place.

I'd like to take into consideration the state of mind that the person is in. I doubt that anyone with a shred of sanity would take their own life. Then I'd have to consider why the person is in the state of mind they are in. The pressures of life and other events, or did God turn them over? I don't know.. Only God knows for sure.

*shrugs*

I was considering the potentiality of murder being involved. I thought there was still some speculation. Sorry if there was not.

being somewhat aquinted with the topic....i have had 2 first cousins kill themselves in the last 3 years...all I really know is that this is a painfull topic that hurts my heart to even see.

What I know now that I didnt know 3 years ago, is that depression is a deadly sickness (Chan and others who disagree please do NOT reply).

If a person chooses not to treat cancer, do we consider that they will not go to heaven? No. Do we consider that every time a person is killed, that the person doing the killing has commited murder? no.

I think that there are many instances that a person kills themself and goes to hell for the act. because as Sabellius points out, the act is murder and the murderer is incapable of repenting.

but I also know that there are cases when a person is simply sick with a deadly disease and that disease kills them. They are no more in control than the person with brain cancer or Alzheimer’s.

And Sabellius, I know your position on this subject is the orthodox one, but honestly you have to link vastly different scriptures dealing with vastly different subjects together to get that orthodox position. (subjects being Murder and Forgiveness). Correct me if I am wrong, but the scripture itself is silent on the spicific subject of Suicide and ones ability to go to heaven after having killed ones self.

I won't go into my own personal story, but I will say, depression can get very bad. Sometimes people have manic depression and don't know it! (bipolar)
"Normal" people can tell you to "get over it" or "things will get better" but if you've never dealt with it, you really don't know how bad things can get.

This is a touchy subject so I am not trying to be pushy. This is the last time I'll post on the subject in fact. The scriptures are not silent as some suggest, nor are the principles here confused. Human life is sacred, since we are created in God’s image (Gen. 1:27). There are various reasons. The body’s sacredness 1 Corinthians 6:19; Prohibition against murder Exodus 20:13; and faith's expectancy 2 Timothy 4:6–8, 18. Suicide violates the essential of salvation--faith in God. God has already revealed to us (Exodus 20) that murder is indeed a sin. Suicide involves murder of self. Unless the suicide is a failure the individual cannot repent, therefore they die with transgressions still accountable to them.

I suppose it's possible but considering his statements to others about his own failing health, I read into that statement that his actions were out of concern, not malice, toward his wife and himself.

I also want to state that there are more and more elderly being treated with antidepressants than ever. It used to be thought that the depression they suffered from was due to old age and such, but it's more than that.

Think of how depressed you might be if you were put into a facility that is not your home where you are subjected to people coming into your room whether you want them to or not, you can't have certain items due to lack of space or a safety issue, you eat when they tell you to eat and what they tell you to eat, bring you pills constantly, tell you when to potty and go to bed......and that's just a small piece of the life of someone who is no longer able to care for themselves.

Knowing what I know, I can easily see how someone would take the life of someone they love, knowing they wouldn't want to live that way...and take their own life due to failing health and knowing what they will have to face if they continue living.

This thread isn't about suicide at all, but the intent of the heart that only God sees. There is no right or wrong opinions in this thread because the fact is, we really just don't know. Only God does.....but I still like stating my opinion and reading the opinions of others.

Only God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
That being said, I have a hard time believing that God would forgive murder that was unrepented of. Just as the life of the unborn has been depreciated in man's eyes, now we see that the same arguments, so to speak are being used in favor of ending life at the other end. Yes, people have pain. Yes, events happen in a person's life that are completely unbearable at times. Yet, does that give us the right to end life? whether it be that of our own or someone else. Arent' we putting ourselves above God when we do that? Just my opinion. I know what the elderly go thru, I worked with them for over 25 years and I could tell you stories. It wasn't just the elderly that I worked for, it was all ages, when I worked for the local VNA. I remember a client I had, who had MS. He was diagnosed only 6 months after he and his wife were married. I took care of him when he had his mind but not one muscle in his body worked. We had to do everything for him. His wife came in one day and told him one of his friends had committed suicide. I will never forget what he said. Now, in order for him to talk to us we had to go thru the alphabet one letter at a time and he would blink his eyes when we got to the right one. As you can imagine it took a long time for him to say anything. So, after at least 45 minutes, his wife finally got what he was trying to say. It was this. "Why did he go and do that?, life isn't so bad". I never forgot this. A person in his condition stating that.

I think there is much truth in what you are saying, however the culture cannot be trusted with any freedom in this area as far as the law goes.

I personally have no concern for this couple's future, they are in the hands of a loving Heavenly father. Of course, I disagree with the traditional view that after a handicapped life by a sin infested earth God will add insult to injury and burn folks endlessly for billions of years. Rather His fire is the refiner's fire that will purge and burn all chaff and dross and finally reconcile folks to their Creator. He's an awesome God.

It's wonderful when someone in that condition can have the outlook on life. Sadly, it isn't often that someone has that attitude about their situation.

I, too, once took care of a client with MS. I was amazed that she could joke about her condition and things her body did on it's own. She was always hopeful for a cure and was involved in the MS community. It took her life two years ago last month at the age of 46.

I'm not that kind of person. I've been to a place where I was so sick and thought I would never get better. I didn't like being there and so out of control. I hope I'm never in that position again.

There was a time when I wanted to die. No, I wasn't suicidal, but I wanted to die. I understand better now......those who feel that way. The understanding that I have prevents me from judging them in the same manner I might judge someone who killed themselves because their girlfriend broke off the relationship, or because they lost their job.

As for putting ourselves above God...well, that can be said for any decision we make where a different outcome is had that God didn't do Himself, IMO. God said for us not to kill, yet there are times that we can kill and the killing is justified, both in His mind and in the mind of the law.

Since God knows our intentions in a way that men cannot, this is why I wonder if God somehow excuses scenarios like the one above. No, I'm not for the euthanistic murders of our elderly..just wanted to make that clear.

Perhaps if someone like you or I were there to help them and talk to them, things might have been different. I don't know.

My dad had a brain disease and he killed himself almost 39 yrs ago when I was just 4.
My older sister is in a nearby nursing home with the same disease.

I am glad I am not God, but from what I have read, one who does such is not saved.

I however wouldn't be hurt if I was wrong in this matter.

God in his Sovereignty can do whatsover he pleases.

I totally agree with you.

That is so sad, Ron. Can I ask what the disease is called?

It once was known as Huntingtons Chorea, not it is just called Huntingtons.
When I came to the Lord a Man of God told me he felt that if I stayed in the Church that disease wouldn't touch me. I believe it.

Unfortunately, my sister won the unlucky lottery of disease.

I thought that's what it was. I've taken care of people with this disease and it's really sad.

I need to do a little more research on that disease, as I thought it was passed down through the mother.

Thanks for sharing, Ron.

I think it is far easier to be an "armchair" quarterback on this issue than it is to think it through. It is the "orthodox" answer to say that a person who commits suicide has no chance of repentance. However, who says they can't regret and ask forgivenss at the moment it happens.

For that matter, how do categorize "sins" which may be committed before one dies and does not ask forgiveness for? Which ones that are committed allow one to go to heaven and which one cause us to head "south."

I honestly think that at the moment most people commit suicide, they are not in their right minds. Hopefully, God takes that into consideration. But I don't know; it's kind of unclear in Scripture.

That's pretty much my take on it, especially the situation I posted about.

Ron,
Thank you for sharing this very difficult part of your life, I have very deep sympathy for you and your family. I am very familiar with Huntington's, the first family that come to the Lord in my late fathers home missions church, were also victims of Huntington's. The son, who was one of my very best friends passed away in his forties, his older brother killed himself in despair. So may God give you peace and may your sister know his presence in her pain.

Quote:

It's wonderful when someone in that condition can have the outlook on life. Sadly, it isn't often that someone has that attitude about their situation.

This has not been my experience. I have dealt with a lot of people that have really hard blows, and I really can count on one or two hands those who were ready to give up or those who were so mad at the world for their situation that they made everyone's life miserable that came in contact with them..even those that came to help them.
I agree that there are people that get so low that they get to a place where life just doesn't seem worth living. Some of these people may be victims of abuse. A lot of times this is the case. I don't know how God would look at this. I agree with someone else's post on this thread that says, I am glad I am not God. One thing for sure, we do serve a God who is just and He is a good God. He is sovereign and only He knows both sides to every story.

As a young kid I saw the ravage of that disease on my best friends Dad.

The uncontrolable bodily jerking around and great difficulty speaking were hard to see.

My best friend is also now gone and his sister too who also suffered this disease.

Not so sure if I was diagnosed with this after seeing it, that i would not attempt to swim the Mississippi River..

I would hope God would be merciful to me if I drowned in the attempt.

I believe God hears the prayers of those who pray and and ask for Gods mercy before or while making the desicion to end the sufferering.

Christ being our advocate and mediator, I'd think he'd plead our case before the Father.

This is a great post and really touches on my point. That is, God sees intent like no human can. I think there is a different in killing oneself and ending suffering that results in death. We do this with our pets (and no, I'm not saying we are no different than pets, just making a point), but we don't tell people that we had our pet killed or murdered when we put them to sleep, do we? Of course not, because that wasn't our intent.

I really think intent has a lot to do with how God views it also.

God never excuses sin. Be careful that your thoughts don't start leading you toward accepting that vile doctrine of devils known as moral relativity. These kinds of scenarios you present are of the kind that moral relativists use to argue against the absolute truth of scripture.

Matthew 12:35-37 - "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Romans 2:11-16 - "For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Romans 14:10b - "for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Romans 14:12 - "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

1 Peter 4:1-5 - "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

Revelation 20:11-12 - "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

we had a case here in Dallas last night. dude killed his 8 month old and shot his 5 year old before offing himself. while God may differ, I really think this guy is facing some pretty bad music right now in the hot place.

God doesn't excuse sin. However, He does have mercy upon whomever He pleases, and it doesn't always fall directly into our logical arenas.

Just as we can't judge the state of a soul definitively in a negative direction, neither can we judge the state of a soul definitively in a positive direction, especially based on our empathy or sympathy toward the person.

As much as I sympathize with those who are desperate, depressed, etc., suicide and murder are selfish acts, and in and of themselves, with no qualifying abnormal mental states, both acts are sin.

I do believe that God will be merciful to folks who have lost some brain cells and consequently, some coping skills. However, to state that all who commit suicide aren't "in their right minds at the time", and thus the implication being that God would be merciful to them because of their choices based on that alone is erroneous.

I know what it's like to have an elderly family member suffer from longterm illness, (and thus his family suffered longterm as well), but I would never have even considered putting myself in God's shoes and taking him out of this world with my own hand. It isn't my place. It would be a heinous sin to do so. Do I want to see someone I love suffer? Of course not. But its not my place to end suffering with a sinful act, no matter how humane my motives may seem.

In that case, I would agree. However, the above is vastly different than the thread starter story I posted, and I'm sure you agree with that.

How sad for the family of the children you mention above. I just can't imagine.

God is merciful to everyone who repents of his or her sins. Of course, one might argue that every moment a person is allowed to draw breath is an act of mercy because every moment is an opportunity to repent and put one's trust in Christ.

I've read the responses here and for the most part, I agree.

But if suicide at all is not excused by God, what about those who jumped out of the burning towers on 9-11-01? It's fact that they killed themselves rather than die a certain, horrible fiery or crushing death. However, it's also fact that death was imminent. Wouldn't God excuse people in that situation?

Were they saved in the first place?

Let's say they were.

For the sake of argument that they were-I just don't know!:dunno

What if you prayed "Father forgive me for what I am about to do"?

:hmmm