Hello From Tampa!
 

I am sorry I have not been able to post much since I've been in Tampa. I did do my best to feed election results to Daniel as soon as I could though. Hope that helped you folks out.

After talking to several District Secretary's and polling a group of men from across geographical lines of the fellowship I feel I can say the following with a measure of confidence. BTW, this information is my opinion only, and does not constitute any inside info from any particular source.

1. Very few men believe the resolution will pass in it's current form. In fact, absolutely no one I have spoken with believes it will pass.

2. There is talk that the Ohio District will attempt to amend the resolution the minute it is announced tomorrow. This move would serve the purpose of luring undecided voters across the aisle by defining what the word "advertising" means.

Two possibilities are being mentioned currently. First is defining advertising by the length of the ads. Second is the idea of one central dept. being the sole entity allowed to advertise within the org. No one I have spoken with believes the resolution will pass even if it is amended as I have mentioned.

3. The wheel of change turns slowly. A wise elder mentioned a comparable issue from a few years back that took a lot of time to push through. The issue was term limits. He stated that it took four or five years to reach a compromise everyone could live with.

4. Brother Haney handled today's business session with grace and dignity. There was a brief moment of excellence during a lapse in activity today. I did not write down the exact quote, but the gist of his remarks was this.

(paraphrasing) "This gospel needs to circle the globe. We do not need to be afraid to take what we have to the world. We need to cling tight to what we have as we reach out to other denominations."

"Don't be afraid of what I just said, we are not inviting them in here, we are taking this to them. Everyone needs to hear this message."

"We should be thankful for what we have, but not ARROGANT."

So ... you're feeling is it won't pass tomorrow, PP?

What were your thoughts and feelings on Haney's message, tonite?

I have a hard time believing it will pass, tradition is a powerful thing! The only chance it has is for some really heavy hitters, including surprise supporters, to amend it, and appeal to the hearts and minds of the men present.

This is an evangelism issue.


I thought Brother Haney did a wonderful job tonight. There were some ideas I questioned, but it was a very solid message overall. He appealed to the base, which is exactly what any good leader is supposed to do.

This entire time period must be very troubling for him. He is such a positive, upbeat person, and this issue is blocking the sun.

What ideas did you question?

What part[s] of the message in particular did you think was appealing to the base? Were any remarks, in your opinion, politically motivated?

I'm not in the mood to commit suicide tonight Daniel.:hypercoffee


His remarks to the base were regarding holiness and rigidity. Those remarks garnered the best response of the night.

I think he did a solid job pandering to the right in order to quell their fears that the fellowship is compromising ... I just hope it was the right tactic ..... His words could bite him tomorrow.

Sounds to me that Kenneth Haney did not say anything new.

From

Goss
Morgan
Fauss
Chambers
Urshan
Haney

We need to bring our message "to them..."

Friendship needs to be extended to others oustside the organization before the ground will be ready to plant your message.

That is my thoughts....

I think that Bro. Haney preached a good solid message tonight. I think he would love to have said more of what he felt but wisdom prevented it. People hang on every word and in that position you have to keep it very much in mind I guess.

I would love to have heard him just "let loose". :)

Please NO TELEVISION, Don't do this!
 

Man, I just can't believe this is going to happen. Why does an Apostolic people need to advertise on Television? Brothers please don't do this, please don't. Don't allow television into the UPCI.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I don't know if I would say he pandered.

How in the world could anything he said tonight "bite him?"

Even the most liberal UPC folks agreed with almost everything he said.

Bro. Haney is on pretty safe footing. Anyone with any wisdom knows that we need someone who is a uniter, who is progessive but not overwhelmingly so. There are a few others who could fit the bill--but we have to have a centrist, or we are going to fall apart.

Bro. Haney generally comes through things, and does not usually step out so far that he can't handle the onslaught.

Right now, I'm more worried about unity than I am whether the res passes or not. Whether it does or not, I'm staying put.

PP Thanks for chiming in.

It is difficult to read what really happenned with all the rhertoic babble against everything not of a certain mindset.

SoCali and MOW did a much better and unbiased version last year. Like watching CNN and how bad GWB is tonight in many threads.

Maybe you can appeal to have Fair and Balanced reporting.

He did an admirable job.

Again, he shined in the business session today. A couple of motions were made that many, many, men laughed at - but he comforted the men who had made the motions with a lot of compassion and respect.

My admiration for him really increased today.

Popularity is the leader not courage in these trenches.

And the fact he allowed them to vote him back in.

I would not want the job!

Wait, they did not vote for me!!!

:sad

Give an example of these motions please...

Thanks BOOM.

I must say I was very angered to read some of the outright lies posted today.

It's one thing to post an opinion, but this idea of posting something as fact, only to claim later it was a joke, is shameless.

He's balanced, sees the big picture, understands our roots but does not let things stagnate. He's smooth and a strong leader.

He was needed after the retirement of Bro. Urshan. I'm sad that he has had less good health, but I'm thankful that there are a few other leaders emerging who can now step in when Bro. Haney decides to step down. God knows how to keep us.

I think he was particularly rough on the left tonite ... PP ... on purpose ...

He singled them out very early in the second part of his message ...


When he said:
Your holiness in dress is a byproduct ... when you lose your conviction ... you soon will lose your walk w/ God ...

Some have said "I don't believe all that ..."

"I'm not going to teach separation against the world"

"I will still teach the New Birth .... and Acts 2:38"

If you sell out one area it will be easy to sell out the next ----

His intent tonite was rally around the banners of Acts 2:38 and Holiness ... as to send a unified message ... while still instilling fear in those on the left thinking of "compromising" by accepting a "watered down message" and appeasing the right by saying the key buzzwords as to keep them in the fold

Well he definitely spoke in faith when he proclaimed "There is unity in our midst"

1. A motion was made to chage the order of the business session so that resolutions would be voted on before the election of officers. The motion was never voted on because the rules committee deemed it inadmissable.

2. A young man asked for a count of those who were qualified as voters. He was quite persistent. His concern, IMO, was valid. We currently have no way of determining who is eligible to vote, and who isn't. IMO, we are way too loose in this area.

The trouble was that the man didn't know how to frame his concern in a way that we could empathize. His motion garnered maybe 5 votes out of the 2000 men there. Laughter erupted. I would have been so embarrased!

Brother Haney was very kind to the man, stating that he could understand the cause for concern, but this is the way it had always been done.

PP,

As far as how his words could come back to bite him ... he may have energized the UC's to harp on Holiness tomorrow .... they may even quote him.

I cannot disagree.

I just think there are things he can't change, and he knows it.

And to complain at MY WIFE for calling him on it...

:ranting

I doubt it.

I look for another former GS to be quoted quite a bit though.

Quote him on what Daniel?

I listened very closely to his message with ears wide open and I didn't hear anything that could possibly come back to bite him or that would give anybody ammunition.

It was just a very good solid message - right down the centre far as I'm concerned. Like I said earlier, I'd love to have seen him get a little free-er, but it was great nonetheless.

DA no different of a message than the man delivered in Louisville when he was elected....

Remember Fair and Balanced

Just want to add quickly here that the ladies meeting this morning was excellent!! Especially after Vesta Mangun got involved. To me the presence of God blew into the place about the same time and after that it was just wonderful!

The speakers did excellent -- all of them -- and the music was good. Everything was done with excellence imo.

Holiness standards vs the salvation message is a farce to think they have equal weight in Eternity.

If you lose the salvation message yes you may lose your moral convictions.

Holiness standards wrapped around a dress code are not moral landmarks.

They are only an oasis for men without discernment to get a one-sided glance on the allegiance of their followers.

Nothing new said in what I have stated.

You can skip 15 GC's and the sermon's sound like one long 60 year drumbeat.

Revival! Holiness Standards! >>>>>>>

Think of it this way Daniel.


What possible good could have come from him taking any position other than a slight right of center approach? He is trying to quell hatefulness. He is not stupid or deaf. He knows what is being said.

But civility must reign in our business session tomorrow. Look, I obviously am a little left of center, but I understand that it is so important to discuss the issue logically. The future of many men is on the line tomorrow.

It would be good, if there is any parting of ways, to do so with Christian temperance.

Listening to Vesta Mangun is worth the registration fee!

That woman can preach!

It just seems counter-intuitive ... when everyone and their mama knows KH is for this resolution. I know he's got to keep things together ... but his commitment to appear non-committal ... does not sit well w/ me ... there are times a leader must state his mind ... declare his stance ... lead w/ principle

... it seems the office is more important at times to some -- JMO

What good would losing the office serve?

Would I like for him to blast the less than 5% minority of freaky-cons?

Absolutely!

But that will not help us tomorrow. It wouldn't help at all.

Not when he is trying to maintain order.

So he chooses to blast the 5% that are on the left? Why make the choice unless he is pandering?

Bishop has always been a very positive man.... always sees the glass half full instead of half empty.

BTW, Dan - YOU were not in the business session today. Maybe there was a real spirit of unity there! :roseglasses

Anyone who was in the business meeting want to give their opinion on the "unity" that was or was not there? :hypercoffee

He can take a stance not can't he?

He was re-elected before he preached and before the vote is being cast!

A man who does not speak with authority to his organization.

Stands for only one thing...Length of his own term....

In politics it is the means of getting more votes....

The man has a mandate ... yet he wants to keep the whole enchilada.

The problem being the glass never gets refilled or moves past the half way mark!

Why!

Daniel, buddy, VIRTUALLY NO ONE could possibly disagree with anything he said tonight! Even us so called libs and mods.

We are all against same-sex marriage, no?
We all believe in holiness, no?
We all believe we need to be careful who we run with - even and/or especially in the UPC, no?
We have all seen or heard of those who say they are just gonna lay down holiness, only to go on to throw off doctrine as well, no?


I don't see what he said that was so offensive to mods and libs.