Fifty years ago...
 

If I remember correctly, fifty years ago, (and yes I was around then!) at least in UPC & ALJC, it was a sin to watch or own a tv, to go to the movies, for women to wear slacks, to dress out for gym at school, to dance, to go to ball games, to "arch" your eyebrows, for women to cut or trim their hair, to wear open toed shoes, to wear any make-up (except for Vaseline), to go swimming in anything other than your everyday clothes, to listen to certain radio stations and there are probably some more deadly sins that I forgot to mention.
My question is.."Did God change His mind about these things through the years or were they man-made from the beginning?"

God never changes, but cultures and opinions do! :)

:highfive

I know God doesn't change but did He tell most of the early ministers that they should lay down those rules back then & tell them something different a few years later? I am still trying to figure all this out in my mind.

That is THE question. Were the rules correct back then?

marthaolivia-

1. I am under the impression that the ALJC has never taught that it was a sin to own or watch TV.

2. I also don't think that "holiness" standards were the same across all areas of the country. Much of your list is foreign to me but for exposure on the board.

3. I would suggest that man got too involved with institutionalizing their prefences and competitive holiness and that is how we got things written in stone that aren't in Scripture or written on the hearts of the people. :cool:

In some areas of the country, these things were NOT preached against. Of the list above, only going to the movies and dancing were taught against in the UPC church my mother attended.

And yes, they were man-made from the beginning.

My mother got the HG in Ga in 1941, in ALJC, and believe me, all the things I mentioned were taught to to us be a sin. I had to sit in a classroom while other kids went to folk dancing recess. On Saturday mornings, we waited until our neigbors got back from the double feature at the local theater. Tv was taught against and we never owned one. Rather than take PE in a dress, I stayed inside school and took art classes. I guess the rule was...If it was entertaining or fun..it was taboo. I think all of the "don'ts" kept me from being interested in church for many years. My mom is long gone now but her teachings never left me and at the age of 60, God drew me back to Him. I thank Him every day for His mercy toward me. I am certainly not against anyone.. I just could not understand then, nor can I now, understand all the rules..

It was still the case for all of the above as late as the 60's to early 70's in some area. Let's no forget don't go to secular college lest you backslide.

I share some of your feelings. Consider, on the open toed shoes issue: what in the world was that about? I mean, c'mon guys! Toes?

Then one time I was digging through some old books at a garage sale and found this small Dale Carnegie type booklet from the 1920's. It detailed how a person should "dress for success" in the business world. Of special concern was the way that women would present themselves, since it was very new to have women out in the workforce.

The "rules" for business dress given in that booklet read almost word-for-word like the standard Apostolic dress code- right down to the no slacks on women and NO OPEN TOED SHOES!

When Apostolics were first organizing there wasn't a lot of Apostolic material available for distribution. So, as churches grew material was sought that would be suitable for getting everyone "on the same page." One big concern (too big, in my mind) was the image of Pentecostals being a bunch of barefooted hillbillies who didn't know how to "dress right." So someone seems to have begun circulating tracts like the one I found and eventually it all just sort of merged into the movement. That's my best guess about the open toed shoes edict. Nothing else even makes any sense.

We're still a young movement in many ways. We still battle with the perceptions that we have of ourselves being somehow "inferior" or from "the wrong side of the tracks." I attended a church once where, for a time, people with new cars were encouraged to park along the street and people with older cars parked on the side- out of sight from the main road.

There's a lot that's silly. But that's just part of being human. Every group has some sort of silly out of date "standard" or taboo. Most states still have "blue laws" that don't make any sense today. In my state it's illegal to sell a car on a Sunday. When the legislature tried to clean out that old law all of the car dealers rose up in protest. "We need one day off!" they cried. They realized that among themselves, competition was so fierce that if it wasn't illegal they'd all be selling cars on Sunday whether they wanted to or not. So the law stands. I can't even sell a car out of my driveway on a Sunday unless I back date the bill of sale!

It's weird, but it's human.

to James Griffin:
I am not worried about backsliding... I had rather just listen to my pastor and do what he says even if I don't understand all I think I know!!! ( Does that make sense? At this stage in life, there is nothing that I left that I want to go back to. I am now cramming for my finals!....I certainly don't want to give the impression that I am dissatisfied with our church teachings. I guess the baggage from childhood follows us all..

My question is,, since the world has lowered the bar so much, why is it ok for the church to? We are in this world but not of the world. I don't see the culture changing so much that it would require the church to start doing any of these things.

I still don't.....

watch or own a tv
go to the movies
wear slacks
dress out for gym at school :happydance
dance except in church:bliss
go to ball games
"arch" my eyebrows
cut or trim my hair
wear any make-up
go swimming in anything other than your everyday clothes
to listen to certain radio stations except for gospel radio and talk radio once in a while for news.

There is a lot to say about obeying those that have the rule over you. As long as your Pastor is correct on the Salvation Doctrine, I don't see the harm in being obedient to what he set up for the church. Even if he is wanting more from you than is required by the Word Of God, what is the harm if we make it to heaven? Isn't that the goal?

man made from the beginning

I see you live in my area of the country... I know what you mean. Those things were preached against in my home church even 15 years ago.

When I got into church in the '70's most of those items were still taboo and that held up until the last few years. The problem I have with changing these items is the fact that these prohibitions came from men of God who prayed and sought the mind of God waaaaaaay more than anyone I know now, with the exception of a few people. (such as Sis Freeman) If God impressed these prayer warriors to not do these things, should we believe men who hardly pray or seek God's will? Many folks bash these actions without considering the quality and piety of the men who instituted them. Truly, God changes not, and I have a problem with questioning why he impressed these rules on the old timers. Many restrictions in the Bible (Levitical laws) seem silly when you look at them carnally but the Jews didn't start culling which one's to obey and which one's not to obey. So I try to prayerfully consider before I jump in and change a restriction such as you describe. They are simply not that hard to comply with to justify arbitrary changes.

most of those are man-made rules or extensions of Biblical ideas into manmade rules that furthered the Biblical idea behind the rule....

This is from “What Oneness Pentecostals Believe and Teach,” third edition by B.E. Echols, Marshall, TX, 1956 pages 10-12

A few things the Oneness Pentecostal People believe and teach that a Christian should NOT do or partake of are: drink beer, wine, whiskey ... use snuff or tobacco ...attend or take part in basketball, football and baseball games, picture shows, boxing and wrestling matches, visit pool halls, play golf or cards, dance, go swimming where both sexes are present ... telling jokes ... reading funny papers, novels ... listening in on comic radio programs and ungodly TV broadcasts. All such things rob a Christian of his spirituality and will eventually drown his soul in perdition.

Christian women should not bob their hair (1 Cor 11:5-11) get permanents (1 Tim 2:9, 10), wear jewelry as ornaments (this applies to men also); wear socks, use rouge and lip-stick or paint their eyebrows, eyelashes or fingernails; neither should they wear low neck, short skirt and short-sleeve dresses --especially in public ... abstain from all lustful and pagan customs of the ungodly, such as necking, kissing, spooning and keeping late hours at night.

WEAR SOCKS!!!!!! THat is a new one........

Kissing is Pagan.....Seriously...?

Who said God told them...they just told us and used poor exegsis of scrpture to "try" to make us think it was God all along

Many of these things never were sin. So whats wrong with confessing the truth now? Are we sooo egotistical we can't admit being wrong a time or two?

[QUOTE=Stephen Hoover;255787]Many of these things never were sin. So whats wrong with confessing the truth now? Are we sooo egotistical we can't admit being wrong a time or two?[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, for the most part. Unfortunately.

was not suggesting you were sir, I was just quoting what was said in my childhood...

It would probably be a shock to many but I lament the passing of many of these standards. My only problem is those who equate them to salvation.

but why are we preaching against things if you can do them and still be saved???

Who gave us that kind of authority??? How nonsensical and stupid can we possibly be??? "Hey, let's preach against things that aren't wrong to do!!!"

Sam I hope I got this "quote thing" done correctly.

I abided by every one of these rules until I was almost 19 not because I believed, but had no choice. I am thankful today for a praying mother but I hated it when I was a teen back in the mid-fifties. My dad was an alcoholic and I had the stigma of that in addition to having to be set apart from other people my age. I still believe in the fundamental truths such as Jesus Name Baptism and the Oneness teaching, but as I said earlier, I never could understand all the "you can'ts". I now have the greatest pastor in the world (UPC) and I will do whatever he teaches and trust him 100%. He knows my background and is always there if I have a question. The feeling of being left out and being different as a youngster has never been forgotten.

Most excellent point, the bar should be higher than the bare minimum. And one should follow the teachings of their pastor! The standards have fallen too far too fast. Once again the problem is in the spirit of confusing the standards with salvation to the point that one would refuse to fellowship with anyone in disagreement.

NO!!

God is the only one who can raise the bar higher than the minimum...

Don't you realize that a big part of Jesus' issue with the Pharisees was that they added to the "bare minimum" that God gave the people and made that extra stuff a requirement, too??

There are few things more detrimental to a Christian walk than having a television in the house. I have no problem preaching against it. Even though watching TV will not send you to hell per se.

Hey....I'm not a "sir". (Marthaolivia!) Sorry if I came across as such. (smiles)

if watching a tv won't send you to hell than there are many things more detrimental to a Christian's walk than owning a television...

Seriously, keep your yeas yea and your nays nay... If its wrong, say its wrong... If it isn't actually wrong, don't say its wrong because you think your people are too weak or stupid to know better...

The modern church is so weak because we have preachers who preach against so much that they keep thier saints from growing, and standards is one of the biggest things that hinder the modern saint from growing...

With all due respect I believe you are confusing what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with a Christian having high standards. Surely you do not feel that we should try and do everything we "can get away with" and still be saved. Once again there are some things a Christian should eschew even if "allowed" under the law of grace. The other side of the coin is of course those who would consider standards of a pastor to equate to salvation, which is certainly adding extra-Bibilical burdens.

Please forgive my faux pas madam

Forgiven...See how much I have matured in the 4 years I have been in Church...

when I hear the word "Standards" I think of preached-from-the-pulpit rules that are demanded be followed on some level...

not more "personal convictions" which I think are great...

if you feel that you should never have a drink of alcohol, GOD BLESS YOU!!

But just don't tell me I can't, because that isn't Bible...

ya know? (note: that was an example, not trying to turn this into an alcohol debate, I just used the first thing that came to my head that people use to describe this paradigm...)

I agree with what you are saying, somehow we need to correctly understand that standards are the pastor's personal convictions for his church or an organization's etc. And as such they should be high especially for Apostolics, but they should not be confused with the plan of salvation, and be the cause of such disunity as was demonstrated today.

I was raised in a UPC home and UPC church. I took my first steps at GC 1949.

This is repetitious but I feel it’s necessary to establish the beliefs in our home.. My dad experienced Pentecost in 1931 ala Acts 2:38 in MN. My mother came to the truth in 1934, rcv’d the HG, and was baptized in 1935 in WI; ** they met in 1946. The UPC was new but their walk with God was not!!

In our household the Church was always the #1 priority. That being said….my hair was cut; after school I took off my dress (remember all the little girls wore dresses to school in the 50’s!) and put on play clothes,…slacks; from 3rd gr on we had to wear gym suits for gym class. Royal blue, snapped, one piece shorts sets…like a jumpsuit….they were not cute or fashionable even then. I still have my JR HI gymsuit.(that’s a scary thought) Our house had a TV and radio. My father was the biggest sports fan you ever saw. He loved to watch or listen to any sport …but was a HUGE fan of the Vikings and TWINS.

Make up and dancing were definite taboos…but my mother did not think it necessary for me to be excused from the square dancing segment we had in 6th grade. In general my mother and father loved God, loved the church, their pastor etc….but they both possessed that rare quality called commonsense. I don’t thing it even occurred to them to forbid some of the current legalistic rulings.
I don’t recall anything on eyebrows; never heard anything about open toed shoes; it rarely got warm enough to go swimming, but on a few occasions I did go---in a swimsuit. The summers I was 8 & 9 I even went to a regular secular camp. This is where I first took swimming lessons and played ping pong.
I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts.
In essence none of these things were issues…not preached from the pulpit. And we had good services, great revivals and the power of God fell on us all.


This is off topic but when in her 70’s someone asked my mother about a particular legalistic direction from the pulpit and she looked surprised, as far as she was concerned, it didn’t apply to her (in that she didn’t do or go to the forbidden anyway).
She did tell us that in Chicago in the 30’s where she attended church…amusement parks, bowling, roller skating etc were all preached against as being worldly, so when she walked to catch the streetcar she crossed the street rather than walk near a popular amusement park….
She didn’t keep us from going to the church roller skating outing; we also had hay rides, sleigh rides etc, I went to these with church youth groups as well as with friends from school.

In JR HI I became aware that there were churches that did preach more strongly…ie hair had to be worn up, required to wear seamed hose (so they knew you hadn’t gone with bare legs…what would those old timers think if they saw the average church today? )) Anyway we knew there were stricter churches out there somewhere, but it wasn’t a problem for us in the “north”.

So while there were standards in our church << it was not the same as is taught today as requirements for living for God.

Please do not think I am being disrespectful but I have never heard Vaseline referred to as make-up. Does that mean if I rub this on my grandchild's body (didn't say where) I am using make-up on him? Never heard that one. :killinme

I don't think a bishop (now called pastor) has the right to impose his personal standards on the rest of the local assembly...

point blank, the Bible gives no indication of that kind of power given to a bishop... none, at all....

I'm actually not a madam either.. (smiles):blush