How can a New Organization be born out of Chaos?
 

Tulsa Meeting...January...a Group of unlike minded men coming together to decide or create a New Organization of Independants...

Interesting in itself...

What will be the breaking factor... who will lead... who will decide what standards are okay or not okay....

Some of the Big "Guns" currently use Video (moving pictures for you UC's)

I'll predict it will start with a Bang and go out with a scream (folks yelling at each other)


It's easy to schedule, conduct, and conceive, but if it's not born in Love it will die in bitterness...

Most religious organizations are started as a reaction over some common complaint.

I have to admit that as much of a Son of the South as I am, that had the Confederacy won the war, eventually you would have had further splits and secessions until you had the "Grand Duchy of Alabama", "The Kingdom of Louisiana" and "The Sovereign State of Mississippi."

Now Wilson and Godair are fairly much mainliners whom I think have a bit of ambition here and are taking advantage of an opportunity.

However, they will be attempting to lead guys who will divide over sleeve length or the length of mole hair.

I am not ready to write Tulsa off with a guffaw just yet.

The "common complaint" may keep them together for awhile.

But eventually the "my way or the highway" attitude that most all these guys have toward their own little local kingdoms will further division.

When will that happen in a big way?

Could be sooner.

Could be later.

I honestly don't know.

The scuttlebut is that the Tulsa meeting is not about a new organization. It is about forming an alliance of like-minded men that is both social and political.

Could this be the beginning of a political party system within the organization?

I'm assuming you mean this "alliance" would remain in the UPC.

Interesting thought.

And frankly, might not be a bad idea.

The "political party" system, I mean.

It would force people to refine their rhetoric. Too often folks have gotten away with amibiguities in their theology. Forcing the different sides to think about what they say would be a huge step forward.

I think the polarization is deep enough to support a true political party system. The benefit would be that men would be required to openly declare where they stand on every issue imaginable in order to snare support.

That would be grand IMO.

Well, it's been political for years and attempts to deny that are laughable.

Mayber overt politics would be a better way to go. Eliminates the effluvium of hypocrisy at least.

Do You mean People would be held accountable for their words and would have to defend them or admit error?

But who would then mediate?

Hey maybe they could hold debates just like old times only with themselves.

Reckon what that smells like in God's nostrils?

Will Wilson's use of Video in the Church and Bible College be overlooked by those completely against Video.???.. (that is considered the Sluppery Slurp for most UC's)

In a marketplace of ideas there is inherent pressure to come up with better ideas and to state those ideas more clearly. When you have an environment where ideas flow from both sides in an atmosphere of freedom and mutual respect there is no need for someone to mediate. The "invisible hand of the market" will sort the bad ideas from the good.

Some ideas that are sorted out initially as "bad" may not be a lost cause. Their proponents will see their value and rework them into a better product and resubmit them to the marketplace. This process would result in better ideas, ideas that are better stated and a general improvement in the way the whole group articulates its theology.

When you have forces that try to circumvent the free exchange you will see the body suffer. A sense of injustice prevails. Small squabbles become huge divisions. People attempt to marginalize and talk over their opponents and bitterness sets in. We need freedom to become something greater than what have been in the past.

This group of men are forming because they have been forced out, just as it was at the formation of the UPC.

With all due respect, that's really not the kind of rhetoric that will stand the test of time. No one passed any ordinance forcing anyone to do or to believe anything. All that happened was that a 30 year old ban on television advertising and ministry was lifted.

If folks are so fickle that they bend and sway to a breeze that flutters every 30 years then they need to get a hold of something more stable than what they've been holding on to.

Who is forcing you to leave? Name names. There aren't anyone saying you have to leave. So since no is telling you to leave the upci you are spreading a lie about being forced out of the organization.The problem is, those wanting to leave are sore losers who would condemn Jesus Christ to hell if he had one too many whiskers. They split hairs over hairs. Get over the martyrdom complex and be a man. No one is forcing you to do what you don't want to do.

Just as the AOG passed their res. against the one God message, men have passed this res. against holiness and separation., Just as men could not stay with false doctrine men cannot stay with those who are going away from holiness and separation.

Enough all ready, maybe I should this meeting so I can find out what's going on for myself.

This may have already been answered but I am guessing they mean not staying in the UPC but a new org. not being as structured as the UPC.

It will probably be more of a ministerial association.

Aren't they all?

How does an organizational split differ from a church split?

Would some of those that are splitting off to form a new organization have the same mindset if some in their congregation decided to spilt off to form a new church?

If we ARE the body of Christ COLLECTIVELY, then would not the same expecations we hold for disgruntled saints (as they gracefully and quietly leave) be held for disgruntled pastors?

If a disgruntled saint went to other members of a church to encourage them to leave and form a new church, is he less ethical than a disgruntled pastor doing the same on an organizational level?




Parson

If this is the same Parson as was on FCF, you're just asking this to stir the pot.

You got too much brains to compare the two.

Good to see you posting!

10 years ago, I would have been there. I am so glad I'm not.

Hi Josh!


It's me. I keep turning up like a bad penny.

and....thanks for your kindness.


Actually, I am curious as to the thinking of those that are forging ahead with plans to (possibly) split off.

It seems to me that there is a double standard that is being held...one that a pastor expects from his unhappy saints....and a completely different one should he become unhappy with the organization.


Is is unrealistic to expect pastors to play by the same rules set for everyone else?

I ask the questions not to stir the pot.....but then again if one doesn't stir the pot every now and then....then what's inside tends to scorch.


Parson

I'm no ultra con, so the rumored meeting in Tulsa, is a non-issue for me, but according to Paul Yongi Cho: "Everything good comes from chaos." He should know, being the pastor of the world's largest church.

I agree with you and this is my concern also.
This is a post I made on another forum stating what I consider a problem.

I guess my concern is that there are some that may be using the UPCI to further their interests. For example, starting a new Organization/fellowship/Alliance/group/whatever.
If a person/minister in the local assembly has threatened to leave your church, but hasn't quite done it yet, but has instead got some of the fellow saints in the Church to form an Organization/fellowship/Alliance/group/whatever, and are wanting you as the pastor to do things their way or they will pull out, what should the pastor do?
There is nothing wrong with men leaving because of convictions, but to remain in to try to get as many as possible for thier proposed new
Organization/fellowship/Alliance/group/whatever is wrong.
If that is what is going on, I don't know, but sometimes I wonder.

If a person becomes disgruntled, is it possible for them to ever again become gruntled ? :hypercoffee

Okay, Parson is a smart guy but I'm young and naive.

What is the difference, Josh? (Not picking a fight, just how do you describe the difference?) :)

Hi Freeatlast!


From my experience as a member of a church where I was not pastoring, and and from my experience as a pastor...the answer is-------Rarely.

There are those that leave because of mis-steps of the pastor....or some decision the church is pursuing that is seen as undesirable. They leave quietly and without trying to take as many as they can with them. They leave the body intact.

But these are more often the exception and not the rule.


Those that leave disgruntled often do so because they have unresolved issues...personal issues that cause them to be unhappy no matter where they go.

They go from church to church dragging their baggage with them. And as soon as the new wears off...they find something that will cause them "fall out" with the pastor....or the church....or somebody.

My mentor (pastor) stated that once disgruntled....always disgruntled. He continued that I should never place a lot of responsibility upon those that came from another place disgruntled for a very long period of time.

If they came disgruntled, he said, it will not be long that they will leave disgruntled.

As stated, there are exceptions....but they are rare as hen's teeth.



Parson

Hi Bowas!


Thanks for your post.


I could not have stated it better.


Parson

Yes, it is unrealistic.
These guys set up rules for others to obey.
They themselves don't have to follow them.

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds, and to his disciples, 2 You would think these Jewish leaders and these Pharisees were Moses, the way they keep making up so many laws! 3 And of course you should obey their every whim! It may be all right to do what they say, but above anything else, don't follow their example. For the don't do what they tell you to do. 4 They load you with impossible demands that they themselves don't even try to keep.
Matthew 23:1-4 TLB

How can a New Organization be born out of Chaos
 

Big-Larry,

A passage of scripture came to mind as I read your post. Heb. 12: 26,27,

in part; "....Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven".

"And this word, Yet once more , signifieth the removing of those things

that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which

cannot be shaken may remain".

After an earthquake, there are some things that remain standing. Most

likely buildings that have a good foundation will be the ones still standing.

After all the wind, noise, hail, etc., of a storm, there are those things

that remain because they could not be shaken. Like the man who built

his house on the rock. It stood while others fell. When chaos happens

only those things which are founded on the Rock Christ Jesus will still

be standing. It is then manifest whose house was really built on the

right foundation.

Blessings,

Falla39

Very True Statement
 

Wow!!! Great comment! It is true that what seems to me is that the Tulsa meeting is about a group of men who won't obey what the organization they claim to love has passed. And the original post on this thread states that it will go down. I'm not happy about it, but it shows me that this group of men are like the little boy who comes playing football, the only problem is he brought the football. And when he gets upset, or things don't go his way, he takes his football and goes home. " Yeah, that's how we'll get back at those liberals, we'll start our own organization" Great post, I enjoyed it!

Parson...I think the answers lies in the fact they don't look at the UPC as a God Given Organization...it's just a fellowship (which makes it easier on the conscience)...there have been those who post here don't believe that Superintendants...Presbyters...and leaders aren't God given posts... it's more about a Man Made Goverment than it is God's Kingdom...

and therefore it takes any type of Authority it may have in their lives out of the question...

What we are seeing here is Every Man doing Right in His Own Eyes...and I fear God has very little to do with any of it...

How can a New Organization be born out of Chaos?

The first thing that pops into my skinny little head is the writing and signing of our Declaration of Independence and then later the Constitution. Those meetings where anything but civil.

In fact the bible itself has a few books which just barely made it in.... Such as the book of Revelations.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Admittedly, the USA and its government came out of chaos. But again, it is an exception and not the rule.

Perhaps the Tulsa meeting will produce an organization that will thrive and be very effective in fulling the Great Commission.

Or perhaps it will become just another of the more than one hundred different oneness organizations that now exist.


Parson

Its good to see Parson and Timlan here! How are you men doing? We have missed you!

Perhaps the better question would be "how long can an organization in perpetual chaos continue to exist?"

At some point something's gotta bend, or collapse is inevitable.

This is how I see the difference...

The organization is like the PTA at the school. It helps and facillitates certain things. However, whether I am in or out of the PTA is of little concern to my boys and their attendance at school. Two totally different sets of rules and expectations.

If I decide to quit the PTA, or even question their motives, it would be quit different than my boys doing the same with the teachers or principal. The parent association is a gathering of my peers. My boys are not peers with their teachers.

Parson,

My above post described what I think is the difference and why the rules are different.

Of course, if one looks at the UPC as the church on a larger scale, rather than a fellowship of peers in the ministry, then they would tend to disagree.

My personal thinking concerning Tulsa is that if one man-made organization has failed to maintain what I'm looking for, then the next one will, too.

Man-made organizations will always have certain failures built in... Nothing against them, but we can't expect them to be the church.