Why Some Question the Apostolic Doctrine
 

First ,I want to clarify this thread and say, I am NOT saying the Apostolic Doctrine is wrong.

This is something I have heard in the past 10 years from preachers who have left the UPC.

Some are shakey on the Doctrine, they say if the UPC was wrong in area's like outward appearance and other man made beliefs, this is cause for us to take another look at the Doctrine.

I know many when they leave say " We are like the UPC in doctrine but that other legalistic stuff we have done away with."
By saying this it really helps dealing with family still in the UPC.

A broad response to this is obvious. The doctrine represents less than 1% of the Christian world. The more specific area you are talking about has to with the sharing of blblical interpretation in general. a.k.a. internet. Not too far in the distant past, most of us only heard or read what was preached and taught in apostolic circles.
There are folks that have left the movement for reasons such as what you are suggesting and I think more and more are feeling less afraid to express doubts and raise question they had all along. I for one, believe we have the understanding of the Godhead down. I have issues with "full salvation" and Acts 2:38 however.

We are absolutely correct on the Godhead and no the "full salvation" message.

We are the only ones that are preaching exactly what the O.T. was a foreshadowing of.

The Tabernacle with all its rituals points to Acts 2:38. In Luke 24 just before Jesus is taken up he tells the disciples what to preach and what to expect. It is an outline of what happened at Pentecost and what Peter would preach. Then when we reach Acts 2 the Spirit falls on them. Peter preaches to the crowd gathered and when they asked what they must do he tells them to repent, get baptized in Jesus name and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. All he did was reveal what all there thousands of years of rituals and bloody sacrifices in the Tabernacle and Temples was pointing forward toward.

We have it right, there is no reason to doubt it. There is no room for debate on if this is the truth or not. All we need to do is share it with the world around us, it is the "...Power of God unto salvation..."

My pastor has said that "It is not what you know but what you believe" I still and will always believe that the baptism in Jesus name and knowing that Jesus is God is fundamental to salvation.

That one doctrine is wrong does not necessarily mean all doctrines are or could be wrong.

Did the Lutherans check out the Trinity and baptism in the titles when he discovered the Catholics were wrong? Did any Trinitarian preacher or group upon discovering something they had believed before check to see if the rest was wrong?

No, but they should have.

I am not against people questioning with an honest heart before God if this is the truth or not. I did that myself and when I did, God gave the revelation of it. It would do people good to ask God to reveal HIS truth to them. Then it wouldn't be UPCI doctrine or "traditional" pentecostal doctrine or as one person said to me "your 'brand' of doctrine". The question would be settled once and for all, this is truth and anything less is not truth and won't work.

Actually, it does.

If someone tells you that something is absolute Truth, heaven or hell, God's Word, and it in fact turns out to be not the case. It immediately brings into question every other thing they told you was absolute Truth...etc...

No it does not necessarily do that. YOU do that. That is YOUR own volition. It is not the logical conclusion that if one thing is wrong ALL other things should be suspect.

I also think it is faulty to have to wait until someone decides one thing could be wrong before examining if the rest are wrong. We should all always be examining what we believe all the time, not just Oneness Pentecostals that left standards

I agree, I strongly believe that we are to be in subjection to the ministry, but the Bible also clearly tells us to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". I think our eyes should always be open to being led astray by false doctrine (by which I mean, anything that goes against God's word).

I don't know, Prax. I tend to think that Mich's reaction is a pretty typical one. When your whole doctrinal foundation starts to crumble, you have to go back to Scripture for yourself and search out EVERYTHING to find out what is truth.

If you bought a dozen eggs, and one of those dozen turned out to be positive for salmonella, would you assume the rest of the eggs were perfectly fine?

NOT at all!

The thing is is that from the very get go you should be searching out scripture for yourself no relying on what man alone is saying. My previous pastor always would preach and tell you to study it/the scriptures for yourself and not just go off of what he said. I'm very up front with people on what is salvational and what isn't.

Thank God we aren't eggs!!! :pirate

Sorry, I had to.

E.g., I don't know that God is three persons, but I believe it. Something like that? (Not saying that's what I believe. Just picking an example to make a point!)

Seriously, what does your pastor really mean by this statement? Are things we believe (just on faith, without actually knowing them to be true) really more important than things we know for sure?

Did that. Got it "wrong". (According to Apostolics.)

Yes, you should be. But you know what happens, when you are new to the whole religion thing? You trust the people who are teaching you, because you see that the are right about some things, like God being real, and the Holy Ghost.

And so, when they tell you, this verse right here, means such-n-such, you believe them, because they have been right so far. Plus, they know so much about God and the Bible, that when they give you a Bible study, and show you many verses AND tell you exactly what those verses mean, you begin to develop a filter. From the very beginning you have been taught that a certain verse means a certain thing, it becomes very difficult to ever see it a different way.

Which is probably why Trinitarians and oneness people use the same verses to prove 2 opposite things.

I think when one starts to question one thing at least in my case, it causes you to look at other things too, but I think questioning is a good thing, it causes one to get into the bible and get answers for oneself and not just accept what you are told

Sherri, you are so right here. I can tell you that this is what I have had to do with the ground falling out from under me. I searched the scripture the whole time but chose to see the scriptures through the glasses of my what someone is telling me.

Information is good and powerful. The information age is revolutionizing the church. Through the use of forums such as this, one can ask questions and get a variety of opinions.

Before, you basically had one source of opinion and that was your leader or pastor. Your faith was in the hands of one person's opinion.

When one researches a subject thoroughly, sometimes their views may change. Information is a good thing!

I too agree with Sherri here. There are so many thinks that are woven together and "fit" to form a whole view. When one doctrine is proven wrong you begin trying to fit everything that's left, and whatever that's new, into a coherent framework.

That's one nice thing about being challenged and accepting the challenge. It can open up doors that you never even knew existed.

When you are new...a babe as it were I agree you believe everything you are told because a person has little or no knowledge of the bible...so you think that all these people have been in the church a long time so what they say must be truth...

But if you pray for God to reveal truth to you yourself personally and you mean it after awhile you start to see things are not adding up, all the control, all the rules, all the time feeling like there is no way you will ever catch up or come up to what is expected and you will probably be failing God as well.....

Then at some point if your honest with yourself and allow God to speak to you...you find how wrong a lot of it is....so much built on so little, so much condemnation, so much holding up above others because WE are the only ones that have the truth....just not true folks...just not true....

When I first came into the church I took it all in and made it my life, one day while listening to a preaching tape, very new in the church, as I stood at my kitchen sink and talked with God...I asked Him how do I know what is true, He gave me a scripture....I was so knew I had no clue how to find it, but I let God lead me....

1Corintians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I have stood on that, and it has done me well...for I know His power is greater than any man or church...and my faith is in HIM....

true and sometimes thats a good thing and sometimes that can be a bad thing. Its good to have others to talk to but at the same time you need to be careful who you take advice from, and always compare the advice anyone giives to the word of God

The Thing is we all must righly divide the word and then determine based on the scripture if our core beliefs are Biblically based or not.
The scriptures don't contradict themselves so must make all of the scriptures harmonize together.
We must not go to one extreme or the other, but the scriptures must be able to fit together.

I didn't say anything about her reaction being typical or not. I was speaking of logical conclusions. Also we are not talking about the WHOLE doctrinal foundation crumbling. And I also never said anything about NOT going to scriptures to search things out. You really REALLY misunderstood what I posted

That's comparing apples and oranges. We are talking about truth, not food poisoning.

Infact, in the case of the eggs I would throw them all away....do you no longer believe Jesus is the savior? Do you get rid of ALL Christian doctrines because you found out one was not true? I don't

We've got to search and question from the right perspective, not from the potentially biased position that "Everything I believed could very well be wrong"...attitude can cause you to believe the truth is not the truth and as well something that is not true is the truth.

That is why I made my statement that we should be always checking for the truth and NOT just one a OP decides standards are no longer true.

true

Actually if you find a doctrine in error that should inspire you to study and pray and seek for truth.
Never throw out the baby with the bathwater.
And too one must know their Bible well to be able to discern error.

true

It says we are to search the scriptures
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
We should know why we believe like we do from the Bible. If we start questioning things, we should go to the scripture to find answers

Let me say this also a good person and even a Spirit filled person can be in error, but this doesn't mean they are bad people ,they just may be walking in tradtion or not have much insight as they need to in certain areas.
Asking questions about biblical things doesn't mean one is underminding the pulpit, since we are created in God's image we have been given the ability to think and reason.

yea
Some though make it hard on one that questions things, like you should already know it, or what have you got into if you express that you are questioning things, especially if you atart questioning the basic Apostolic teachings

If I was a pastor I would want saints who question things, I would want a congregation that would study and could think for themselves.

I have, over the course of my short life, had many a reason to turn and go "another way". I have had Pastors who openly lied, and one that ran the work my late father spent 18 years building down to his family and himself. I have been lied on and been hurt many times. I had a Pastor tell me that because I was going to keep my kids out of the church school the day that they passed out valentine cards very angrily that he would not be able to use me in leadership. I sat for several years after that, and never said a word. I have felt betrayed by leadership that should have been the example of leaders, but walked more in the flesh that my cat.

I have been in an Ultra Con church, and I have been in an Ultra Liberal church. I have ran the gamut of Apostolic Christianity, went beyond its borders, and took a lot of barbs and stabs in the process. IF ANYONE has a RIGHT to QUESTION apostolic doctrine, I am HE that has earned that right, and bare the marks in my heart and spirit.

But let me just say that in all my travels, my relationship was not built or based upon men, but upon Jesus Christ. I may have fallen a few times during the battle, but I always got up. It was, and still is, MY CHOICE. Those that question the apostolic doctrine choose to do so. There is not a devil in hell, or a hurt bad enough for me to want to leave the ONE that first loved me. We always look at the "great falling away" as being something the devil does, but I believe that every person has a choice to either serve the creator, or serve themselves. It all comes down to choice. Choose this day whom you will serve.

Thats where I have been lately, Questioning some of the basic teachings, and been looking through His word for answers.

Sometimes its hard when you start questioning things, honestly I dont feel comfortable talking to many about it, so I have just been searching the scripture

Ya know, these threads ALWAYS make me appreciate my church sooooo much more!! We do not cram standards down people's throats - especially new ones, in fact we don't even teach them to them unless they ask and then we will simply tell them our views - how we came to our views and leave it at that, we don't tell them they have to change - they can do as they please. We had a guy who wore HUGE earrings for about 6 months and then one night he called my husband and said "I came across some scriptures in the Bible that lead me to believe I shouldn't wear all my jewlry anymore.....he loves his bling bling!! :) Anyways, we never once pushed that on him in anyway, I believe he did what he felt was right in the eyes of God - he let the HG & the Bible direct him, not a man.

This explains a lot!:hypercoffee

Mich,

there is always going to be someone who tells you that what the other guy has said is false and they are going to have some interpretation or documentation to support their position. This is why it is important that you get to know Jesus for yourself and allow the Holy Ghost to lead you and guide you into all truth. I just worry that one with such skepticism will have a difficult time even listening to and accepting the guidance of the Holy Ghost. JMHO

Sherri,

If this were my reaction to errors among men I assure you that I would be an atheist or at best an agnostic deist. I can find human reasons to question the very existence of God and what Mich is describing is the application of human reasoning to a spiritual experience. I have had my belief in men shaken by THEIR error but my faith in God is not tied to the error or accurateness of men; neither should anyone's faith be so connected.

Pianoman,

Is the church now stronger or weaker as a result of your assertion above?

Has this glut of information resulted in more unity or more division?

When we first find God at an alter, our entire church view is shaped by those that surround us. Any change of heart that we have is still seen through that original church view.

This is kind of like a baby that is born in Iran and grows to hate the USA. Any amount of reasoning with this person is usually to no avail. His world view can't be altered.

When one realizes part of his church view could be in error, he naturally will question the rest of his church view.